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2017-08-18, 02:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why are physicians generally huge jerks?
Concrete example: I have a 4 inch gap I need to build a block to fill. It's probably not exactly four inches. If my 2x4s are exactly 2x4, then if that gap is a hair under 4 inches, I have to rip one of those boards. That in turn requires a large tablesaw, is a dangerous and fiddly operation requiring additional measurements. If my 2x4s are under nominal, I need to stick a shim in the hole to fill the gap, which is much easier to do fine adjustments for. Now imagine doing layout, roughly 4 inch gaps will be a lot more common than roughly 4/12 inch gaps.
Sure, one could do layout so that your gaps would tend to end up at 4 1/2 inch thickness. This will tend to mean dealing with lots of stupid things like 11 3/4 inch lengths. In return I get what? The ability to have 2x4s that are actually supposedly 2x4. The only person this could possibly help is somebody who has never dealt with lumbar before. Except it only really helps them if they designed something assuming that you could just take a 2x4, nail it to another one and get something exactly 4x4 inches.
And that's a bad habit that will screw them over very quickly, regardless of the nominal thickness. If you're going to be successful working in wood in any capacity, you need to know not to count on across-grain thickness being stable, because it changes. Every time you cut the board longways, you will relieve internal stresses, causing the wood to warp and change shape. Every time the humidity changes, the wood will change size, mostly by getting thicker not longer. If you need exactly four inches thick, you need to spend a lot of work getting that, probably over the course of days as you allow the wood to relax after successive cuts. Even that may not be enough, I had a box lid pick up a substantial warp after being allowed to dry for more than a month. So whatever nominal thickness the mill cuts to is not the one you will get. I don't count on a 2x4 being close enough to 1.5 x 3.5 inches to be remotely reliable as a measurement, if I need a piece of wood of exactly that, or any other measurement, I'll get a bigger one and cut it to that size.Blood-red were his spurs i' the golden noon; wine-red was his velvet coat,
When they shot him down on the highway,
Down like a dog on the highway,And he lay in his blood on the highway, with the bunch of lace at his throat.
Alfred Noyes, The Highwayman, 1906.
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2017-08-18, 02:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
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2017-08-18, 02:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
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Re: Why are physicians generally huge jerks?
Blood-red were his spurs i' the golden noon; wine-red was his velvet coat,
When they shot him down on the highway,
Down like a dog on the highway,And he lay in his blood on the highway, with the bunch of lace at his throat.
Alfred Noyes, The Highwayman, 1906.
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2017-08-18, 03:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Birmingham, AL
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Re: Why are physicians generally huge jerks?
Last edited by Peelee; 2017-08-18 at 03:42 PM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 1
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2017-08-18, 03:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2013
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Re: Why are physicians generally huge jerks?
Frankly, if you need more accuracy than a millimeter, which the vast majority of rulers and tape measures I've seen have, then you need more accuracy than Imperial allows unless you artificially force things into to your preferred system. Your examples are being intentionally stupid at this point.
And I should have been clearer, you often buy boards that are measured in inches (I want 20 meters of 2x4), for whatever reason, but the actual cutting tends to be done in metric. Somehow, things get built just fine over here too.Last edited by BWR; 2017-08-18 at 03:56 PM.
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2017-08-18, 04:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2010
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- Toledo, Ohio
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Re: Why are physicians generally huge jerks?
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2017-08-18, 04:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2011
Re: Why are physicians generally huge jerks?
I'm not at all saying you can't build things using metric. I'm saying that there are certain advantages to a system that's base 12. the same reason as boards are sold in 16 foot lengths rather than 20 foot lengths. .
Mostly what I'm trying to argue against is the idea that switching to metric will be universally equally good for everybody. Which isn't exactly true everything is always more complex than that. And again they're definitely certain advantages for using Imperial, a quick look at some online forums reveals that a lot of the English-speaking world professional carpenters use Imperial rather than metric even though those countries have adopted metric probably long before those carpenters were born. Now is there some aspect of inertia in the trades that's responsible for that, almost certainly some part of that is due to that but I don't think you could say all of it is at least not with any real degree of confidence.My Avatar is Glimtwizzle, a Gnomish Fighter/Illusionist by Cuthalion.
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2017-08-18, 04:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2011
Re: Why are physicians generally huge jerks?
Yeah that's fine if you're a hobbyist but if you're a professional and you take out an orbit sander or a belt sander instead of ripping a board you would be laid off so fast it wouldn't even be funny. I don't even want to know what would happen if you took out a hand plane.
There's more to do with standard then luck there. Mostly because two and four fit very well into feet or any other measurement that you're going to have again you're seeing advantage of being able to easily subdivide things.
As far as your two-by-fours being smaller generally it's to give you about a half inch of play they're almost always exactly a half inch smaller. Which again is what you would need if you had a 2 inch Gap in concrete and you were filling it with the short side of a two by four. Although in that situation you might need to make a rip anyways long ways.
Also it's important to avoid cutting boards as much as possible because cutting them makes them less square less accurate and ****tier to use. Like even as someone who does a lot of cutting it's not really possible to make it so that you have a rip that's exactly square. I mean maybe with a table saw but I do a lot of most often the feel that we don't have the advantage of having table saws.
That may have been the real reason initially but if it was just shrinkage you wouldn't get exactly equally 1/2 in shrinkage the whole time and that's what you have on every piece of 2 by 4. That's one and a half by three and a half. I mean if it wasn't exactly like that you have to rip a lot of boards and you'd never be able to lay anything out.Last edited by AMFV; 2017-08-18 at 04:22 PM.
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2017-08-18, 04:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
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Re: Why are physicians generally huge jerks?
Serious question, have you built anything out of wood? I have on occasion, and if your design is at all reasonably done, the difference between nominal and actual width of the lumber is utterly irrelevant 99% of the time.
When it is - say you have a post that needs to come through a floor or something, you basically have two choices.
1) Start with something too big and make it smaller.
2) Start with something too small, and make it larger.
Now I can make the hole any dimension I want, and if I need a really tight fit I'll need to measure it to the post no matter what, because lumber just isn't cut precisely enough to saw a hole and hope a board off the pile will actually fit it well. But if I just need the thing to go through the hole, and would like to be able to easily adjust its angle (because say it needs to connect to a rafter 12 feet above the floor) it's much easier to have a post that fits the hole easily. So I want to cut my hole a bit big, and if this is something still fairly unprecise, I'd like to be able to get away with just cutting a hole and dropping a post in it, not measure every hole to every post.
So I go out and grab me a nice 4x4. If it's actually 4 inches on a side, I'll need to do a bunch of annoying calculations when cutting the hole to give myself enough play. This effects about 4 different cuts, and can be easy to goof up. If it's 3 1/2 inches on a side, I just need a hole 4 inches on a side and there's no screwing around 1/4 inch extra allowances everywhere. It also means that if I've got two of these posts, and I want to attach a ceiling between them, I'm pretty sure that an 8 foot wide piece of plywood will fit between them if I allowed for 8 feet between them. The extra is easy to make up using a couple of shims, and if one wants it to look all fancy afterwards, that's what trim boards are for.
The other way you can end up with a gap is that your original rough measurements are off, and you've gotta stick something in there to make the thing fit together. In this case the hole's of essentially random size, and it doesn't really matter whether what thickness you're starting with. You just need something to fill in the gap. So basically either you end up designing things with lots of stupid measurements, or there's no particular reason to favor one size over the other.
(This is also a very weird way to build something. One is much better off simply putting in the verticals first, then cutting the flooring around them. In which case it's still very handy to have them a bit small, because that means things tend to fit when cut to the desired thickness, rather than not. And it's still easier to have this adjustment pre-done in the dimension of the lumber than it is by downscaling everything around them.)
There are cases where you really need this bit of wood to be extremely tight fitting and precise (say mortise and tenon construction), but if you need that kind of precision you'll need to cut it to fit anyway. Nothing that comes from the mill is going to be close enough. Which is why I said if your design will fail if you bought 4x4s not realizing they weren't actually four inches a side, you were probably going to have a really bad day already.
(I'd be very surprised if the difference between nominal and actual comes from wood shrinkage. It's too precise, and cutting wood when it's wet enough to shrink that much is a good way to end up with really terribly warped and probably cracked boards, assuming you could even find a tree that would shrink from a 2 inch board to a 1.5 inch board. You gotta let that stuff dry first. Plus, as I said, early in the 20th century 2x4s were actually 2x4, so this could be basically adjusted for. People stopped doing this, and since construction continued to work just fine, it seems to be either irrelevant or a change for the better. )Last edited by warty goblin; 2017-08-18 at 04:38 PM.
Blood-red were his spurs i' the golden noon; wine-red was his velvet coat,
When they shot him down on the highway,
Down like a dog on the highway,And he lay in his blood on the highway, with the bunch of lace at his throat.
Alfred Noyes, The Highwayman, 1906.
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2017-08-18, 05:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2011
Re: Why are physicians generally huge jerks?
Well if you need a really tight you could just cut it a little small and then use a a hammer to make it fit. So for like your notional 2 x 4, you could cut a hole 1 1/2 in light by 3 and 1/2 inch light.
Course that wouldn't work for a lot of residential applications but it's a lot faster than cutting it to fit.Last edited by AMFV; 2017-08-18 at 05:19 PM.
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2017-08-18, 05:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why are physicians generally huge jerks?
Last edited by Peelee; 2017-08-18 at 05:32 PM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 1
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2017-08-18, 07:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
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Re: Why are physicians generally huge jerks?
It's not from shrinkage, mills don't cut their lumber green. They're made that size deliberately. Probably in part because it's a much more convenient size than actually 2x4.
I have thevsame issue with quarter/half pound burgers. That one especially because they shove as much water as they can in the meat. At least the mills make an honest effort.Blood-red were his spurs i' the golden noon; wine-red was his velvet coat,
When they shot him down on the highway,
Down like a dog on the highway,And he lay in his blood on the highway, with the bunch of lace at his throat.
Alfred Noyes, The Highwayman, 1906.
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2017-08-18, 07:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Birmingham, AL
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Re: Why are physicians generally huge jerks?
A.) Then dont call it 2x4. Call it what it actually is. Not hard.
2.) The vast majority of burger places don't cook to order. You get it medium well. End of story. The burgers are identical, the cooking is identical, the final weight is identical.
Also, rare?!? Do you have any idea how hard it is to find a place that'll cook your burger rare, even at placed that do cook to order? It's damn near impossible, unless the cook is willing to make an exception and ignore restaurant policy, which I can attest is itself a fairly uncommon thing.Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 1
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2017-08-18, 07:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
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Re: Why are physicians generally huge jerks?
For most things nominal size is necessarily and beneficially different than actually size. If my pipe has an exterior diameter of an inch, the elbow piece needs to have an internal diameter very slightly greater than one inch, because an actual one inch internal diameter elbow won't fit and will be entirely useless. Are we supposed to say that this requires a 1 and 1/512th inch fitting now?
Because there's a good bit of wiggle room in the sort of construction where one makes substantial use of 2x4s, the nominal vs. actual is a fairly large difference. If this caused actual problems for building things, you'd think somebody would have fixed it by now. As it is, it's either a difference that is mostly irrelevant and occasionally very handy. Changing either the board or the term for the sake of some weird measurement purity would be a lot of pointless and wasted work.
2.) The vast majority of burger places don't cook to order. You get it medium well. End of story. The burgers are identical, the cooking is identical, the final weight is identical.
Also, rare?!? Do you have any idea how hard it is to find a place that'll cook your burger rare, even at placed that do cook to order? It's damn near impossible, unless the cook is willing to make an exception and ignore restaurant policy, which I can attest is itself a fairly uncommon thing.Blood-red were his spurs i' the golden noon; wine-red was his velvet coat,
When they shot him down on the highway,
Down like a dog on the highway,And he lay in his blood on the highway, with the bunch of lace at his throat.
Alfred Noyes, The Highwayman, 1906.
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2017-08-18, 08:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Birmingham, AL
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Re: Why are physicians generally huge jerks?
So you want to claim that my argument is that if a number is relatively close to another number on any given scale of arbitrary magnitude, we should round it. Fun fact, the radius of the Earth is about 1000 miles (because 3959 is closer to 1000 than 10000, obviously).
Now, if we go the non-stupid route, then rounding to the nearest eighth of an inch sounds fine, yes?Last edited by Peelee; 2017-08-18 at 08:19 PM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 1
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2017-08-18, 08:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
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Re: Why are physicians generally huge jerks?
If I'm doing Fermi estimation, I'll happily round the earth's radius to 1000 miles. If I need to know roughly how far something is falling after a second I will use 10 meters per second squared. And if I need a board that is precisely 2 by 4 inches I will measure and cut a board that is precisely 2 by 4 inches. There are places in carpentry where I don't care about an eighth of an inch, and places where I care a lot about 1/64th inch, it just depends what I'm doing.
The level and sort of precision required depends entirely on the problem being considered. 2x4 is a sensible term that has entirely sufficient precision for how they are actually used. And convincing people to add six syllables to a completely clear and well understood name is a battle that's both doomed and pointless.Blood-red were his spurs i' the golden noon; wine-red was his velvet coat,
When they shot him down on the highway,
Down like a dog on the highway,And he lay in his blood on the highway, with the bunch of lace at his throat.
Alfred Noyes, The Highwayman, 1906.
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2017-08-18, 09:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2015
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- San Francisco Bay area
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Re: Why are physicians generally huge jerks?
Don't look at the relationship between "nominal" and actual pipe size then, as a Journeyman plumber once told an Engineer customer who kept asking about it.
Engineer: "What size is this?"
Plumber: '3/4"'
Engineer: *measures with a caliper*
"No it isn't"
Plumber: 'It's the nominal size'
*minutes of "discussion" follow*
Plumber: *sigh* '
'It's called that as a trade secret, just to confuse you.
Engineer: "AHA!"
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2017-08-19, 05:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2014
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Re: Why are physicians generally huge jerks?
There certainly is an advantage to using multiple of 12 as they're divisible by 2, 3, 4 and 6. But I don't see why you'd need to pick a specific base for that.
a quick look at some online forums reveals that a lot of the English-speaking world professional carpenters use Imperial rather than metric even though those countries have adopted metric probably long before those carpenters were born. Now is there some aspect of inertia in the trades that's responsible for that, almost certainly some part of that is due to that but I don't think you could say all of it is at least not with any real degree of confidence.Last edited by Cazero; 2017-08-19 at 05:26 AM.
Yes, I am slightly egomaniac. Why didn't you ask?
Free haiku !
Alas, poor Cookie
The world needs more platypi
I wish you could be
Originally Posted by Fyraltari
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2017-08-21, 10:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why are physicians generally huge jerks?
I've had greatly mixed experiences with doctors over the years. The two pediatricians I saw as a kid were excellent (both were Russian immigrants, I believe, and had excellent bedside manner in addition to knowing their craft well). As an adult though, I've had a lot less positive experiences, ranging from doctors who don't listen and want to get me in and out of their office as long as possible, to doctors who are friendly and chatty but (because of this) turn appointments into an all-day event because I don't get seen until 3 hours after my appointment time.
My biggest frustration with doctors is how they all seem to share the unspoken assumption that their time is valuable, but mine is not.
Also, I went to a wedding with my ex about 4 years ago where a former classmate of hers who had become a doctor awkwardly tried to hit on every single unattached female he could find at the reception. He was so bad that two of my ex's friends pretended to be in a lesbian relationship with each other just so he'd leave them alone.
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2017-08-23, 12:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2005
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Re: Why are physicians generally huge jerks?
They get NOOOO sleep.
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2017-08-31, 02:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2011
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- the Netherlands
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Re: Why are physicians generally huge jerks?
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2017-08-31, 03:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2005
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- an island in maine
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Re: Why are physicians generally huge jerks?
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2017-08-31, 07:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2017
Re: Why are physicians generally huge jerks?
The fact is that none of the problems presented were done by me or people who feel that doctors have problems, and I still normally have a terrible service, the fact that so many
doctorsphysicians kill themselves is an indication that there is something wrong with the job and how they deal with the patients, they are clearly unprepared to deal with people and that makes them kill themselves, pathetic, they really should learn how to work that issue rather than blame the patients they were hired to help or expect people to simply change.Last edited by The Eye; 2017-09-01 at 03:48 PM. Reason: I agree with the OP 100% and since he copied my style “Why ___ are ___” I thought I was the one who created this thread .
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2017-09-01, 06:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2015
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Re: Why are physicians generally huge jerks?
Lo and behold! The Eye has spoken!
Anyway a lot of people really don't listen to their doctors until its too late ya know. Like my uncle, he likes his roast pig and he does not take his meds. Poof! Quad bypass later, now he's taking his meds.
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2017-09-01, 06:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2014
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2017-09-01, 07:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2006
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Re: Why are physicians generally huge jerks?
I just wanted to chime in to say that I harbor a pathological distrust towards all doctors because of an extremely botched surgery in my youth, multiple botched dental surgeries, a terrible psychologist to deal with the trauma from the botched surgery and the depression I got into afterwards.
I now have cavities the size of the moon in my mouth but I will not yield until it hurts to speak. Doctors are evul.
I mean, they're probably not, but I am not lucky.
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2017-09-01, 11:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2008
Re: Why are physicians generally huge jerks?
The reason suicide rates are so high among doctors is the same as the reason suicide rates are so high among soldiers - high PTSD rates caused by dealing with severe trauma all the time. Dealing with severely wounded patients is traumatic. Dealing with patients dying is traumatic. Even a cursory look at which doctors kill themselves a lot will reveal a way higher rate among emergency room physicians, surgeons who deal with life threatening injuries, and generally any particular career that is likely to involve people dying messily in front of you.
I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that. -- ChubbyRain
Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.
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2017-09-01, 01:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Birmingham, AL
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Re: Why are physicians generally huge jerks?
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 1
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2017-09-01, 02:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2017
Re: Why are physicians generally huge jerks?
Death is part of life if they can't deal with that maybe they shouldn't have chosen such profession in the first place?
It's like choosing to be a vampire if you have hemophobia or being a window cleaner if you are afraid of heights or a teacher if you hate kids.
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2017-09-01, 02:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2008
Re: Why are physicians generally huge jerks?
Yes, because everyone has so much experience dealing with death all the time and knows this about themselves, and also dying in the process of saving the lives of a great many people is apparently an indication that you're a bad person. Also everyone knows the exact outcomes of all their decisions, career or otherwise, and the entire concept of "risk" and "probability" are lies devised to hide the simple truths accessible by spouting the first thing that comes to mind without thinking at all. There's certainly no way that people are knowingly taking a higher risk of certain types of death and psychological effects to do important work - that's just absurd.
I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that. -- ChubbyRain
Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.