Fallout VII - Vault-Tec calling

[DigoDragon]

As I'm nearing the end of my New Vegas play through, I've taken to wandering about and exploring spots I've missed from most of the quests I've done. The Monte Carlo Suites were an interesting... uh, surprise. Soon as I walked in, I got into a firefight. Except, I didn't see anyone, oh but there's red dots on my radar, and I'm getting shot...

Surprise! Everyone was invisible. Even Veronica and Rex. O.o

It didn't make aiming at them with the pipbuck invalid, so I guess it was just a texture glitch that everyone ended up invisible. Was kind of funny because the half of the gangers I disintegrated with my laser rifle turned into visible ash piles. The rest were invisible corpses I had to look for by braille method.

Is there a quest to wipe out the fiends? Cause dang, I wouldn't mind just walking into that vault of theirs with some of my unique melee weapons and just crack some heads for fun. Everyone in north and west Vegas keeps talking about how they're a problem, so I'd gladly wipe them out for free. :>

[NeoVid]

I liked the Fiends, they were great as an unlimited source of weapons and positive Karma!

Anyway, there's no mission specifically for taking them down, but the Fiends do have a scene in the ending. That scene is affected by how many of their named characters you took out over the course of the game.

[BladeofObliviom]

As I'm nearing the end of my New Vegas play through, I've taken to wandering about and exploring spots I've missed from most of the quests I've done. The Monte Carlo Suites were an interesting... uh, surprise. Soon as I walked in, I got into a firefight. Except, I didn't see anyone, oh but there's red dots on my radar, and I'm getting shot...

Surprise! Everyone was invisible. Even Veronica and Rex. O.o

It didn't make aiming at them with the pipbuck invalid, so I guess it was just a texture glitch that everyone ended up invisible. Was kind of funny because the half of the gangers I disintegrated with my laser rifle turned into visible ash piles. The rest were invisible corpses I had to look for by braille method.

Is there a quest to wipe out the fiends? Cause dang, I wouldn't mind just walking into that vault of theirs with some of my unique melee weapons and just crack some heads for fun. Everyone in north and west Vegas keeps talking about how they're a problem, so I'd gladly wipe them out for free. :>

It didn't make aiming at them with the pipbuck invalid, so I guess it was just a texture glitch that everyone ended up invisible.

pipbuck

Obvious FoE fan is obvious.

Not that everyone didn't know already, it's not like you don't post quotes from your FoE game all the time...

I liked the Fiends, they were great as an unlimited source of weapons and positive Karma!

Anyway, there's no mission specifically for taking them down, but the Fiends do have a scene in the ending. That scene is affected by how many of their named characters you took out over the course of the game.

There is too a quest for it. Three Card Bounty, started by talking to Major Dhatri in Camp McCarran.

[Rynjin]

You can get a neato chainsaw for killing Motor-Runner in Vault 3, so it's worth doing anyway.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

There IS a quest to take down Motor-Runner, I believe, but before you do, if you are going to be working the Abba Dabba Honeymoon questline, do that one *first*. Besides, it gives you easy access to him by himself. Talk to Colonel Hsu at Camp McCarren until he mentions Motor-Runner and his missing Ranger. Head down, find the ranger, apply first aid (needs a doctor's bag and medicine check), tell the ranger to evac, kill Motor-Runner, take his hat as proof of the kill, return for NCR fame and a 300 cap bounty. You get another NCR fame boost for saving the ranger on top of the one for completing the quest.

[factotum]

I think perhaps the .223 and .44 should have their damage reversed. I hate to bring realism into it, but a .44 is a much larger round than the 5.56. Out of the very short barrel on a revolver, or any pistol, the round is much slower, and wouldn't do the same damage.

I'm not sure the damage works that way, even in real life. A small, fast-moving bullet will leave a very small wound. A big, slow-moving bullet is likely to tumble when it hits something and will really tear things up quite badly. The only situation where the .223 would definitely be the better round would be against armoured targets, because it's more likely to penetrate to the fleshy bits.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Bringing some real life experience into the discussion here...

Using a rifle round in a handgun is generally a Bad Idea for a couple of reasons. First off, it doesn't have the barrel length necessary to burn all the powder before exiting the barrel. This is a problem for several reasons. Fouling is going to be a real problem because you'll have unburnt powder caking up pretty damn fast. Because not all the powder burns, you aren't going to see the muzzle velocity that you'd normally expect out of the round in a weapon designed for it, which means it'll be doing far less damage overall. And of course there's the small matter of fitting the damn thing into the weapon.

Pistol rounds use a quicker burning powder, and generally has less of it, giving it a 'kick in the pants', while most rifle rounds tend to 'burn slow' (as a relative term, mind you) to give it an even accel curve through the barrel to ensure good rifling catch. The only time I've really heard of rifle rounds being used in a handgun was when it was used as a 'zip gun', which is, by its very nature, improvisational and thus quality is less important than accessibility and concealment. Going the other way works just fine, of course. Putting pistol rounds in an assault rifle is called an SMG. Hell, one reason the Thompson was so well liked in the military was it used the exact same ammo as the M1911 also being issued. The 'Grease Gun' also used the same round, but was a cheap stamped piece of crap, and had issues with the production line so it never produced as many as promised before the war ended.

It works in the Fallout-verse, because you've also got ghouls, super mutants, and other SCIENCE!! floating around, so we've already effectively tossed the laws of thermodynamics into the 'optional' pile already. I can willfully ignore the fact that bullets and guns do not work that way in favor of Rule of Cool. I mean, simply firing the Sawed Off Shotgun, as presented (Pistol grip SBS, putting it into AOW category) would shatter the wrists of anyone dumb enough to fire it like a pistol, unless said person was a Super Mutant Master or Deathclaw or something similarly built to superhuman standards, but I'm willing to let it slide in favor of Rule of Cool, and giving me a holdout SBS. But realistically... no, the .44 magnum is going to be doing FAR more damage than a revolver firing .223 rifle rounds.

[Rynjin]

It's also important to note that large rounds are only RELATIVELY slow moving. When you're measuring speeds in the thousands of feet per second, losing a few dozen really doesn't matter that much in the grand scheme. The extra mass then more than makes up for the negligible loss in speed. There's a reason a 30-06 round is more dangerous than a .22 caliber one, speaking from my own experience. It's roughly the same comparison, only in rifle calibers instead of pistol. You shoot a bleach bottle full of sand with a .22 and it makes a little hole. You shoot it with the 30-06 and you're lucky if there's more bottle THAN hole. And, if you're me, are left with a pretty bump on your noggin as a memento to boot.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

It's also important to note that large rounds are only RELATIVELY slow moving. When you're measuring speeds in the thousands of feet per second, losing a few dozen really doesn't matter that much in the grand scheme. The extra mass then more than makes up for the negligible loss in speed. There's a reason a 30-06 round is more dangerous than a .22 caliber one, speaking from my own experience. It's roughly the same comparison, only in rifle calibers instead of pistol. You shoot a bleach bottle full of sand with a .22 and it makes a little hole. You shoot it with the 30-06 and you're lucky if there's more bottle THAN hole. And, if you're me, are left with a pretty bump on your noggin as a memento to boot.

Yes and no. Yes, the 30-06 round deals a hell of a lot more damage to a given target than a .223, but that's as much because it has almost twice the powder in addition to twice the mass. And also because most rifle shooting 30-06 have longer barrels than those that shoot .223.

Also as a clarification, .223 Remington is NOT interchangeable with 5.56 NATO due to bore pressure issues. 30-06 is NOT interchangeable with 7.62 NATO for the same reason, despite identical diameters. 30-06 is 7.62X63mm while NATO is 7.62X51. Fortunately, there aren't many civilian model rifles that fire 7.62 NATO for someone to screw up a gun with by trying to fire 30-06 out of it. Most tend to be military weapons, generally either in the Sniper or Designated Marksman designation. Most AR's and carbines these days fire 5.56 NATO. Except, of course, for the AK-47 that is still chambered in 7.62X39mm. And I think the aussies have an AR chambered in 7.62 NATO as well. But most people use 5.56 NATO since they tend to be lighter, even in a modern era in which you want kills and not wounds.

[DigoDragon]

I liked the Fiends, they were great as an unlimited source of weapons and positive Karma!

There is that benefit, yes! Especially early on where looting bodies was my primary income. Plus, being drug addicts means getting loads of almost weightless chems to sell.

Obvious FoE fan is obvious.

Not that everyone didn't know already, it's not like you don't post quotes from your FoE game all the time...

D'ohh! Haha, yeah, that's a muscle memory thing.

I'm sure my avatar was a hint. Funny thing, I never read the actual story. I just like playing PbP in the universe.

There is too a quest for it. Three Card Bounty, started by talking to Major Dhatri in Camp McCarran.

I remember completing that. I was trying to be so careful to not gibb the bosses so that I can get the maximum reward, but dang it, Cook Cook set off a landmine near himself and exploded into chunks. :x

There IS a quest to take down Motor-Runner, I believe, but before you do, if you are going to be working the Abba Dabba Honeymoon questline, do that one *first*. Besides, it gives you easy access to him by himself. Talk to Colonel Hsu at Camp McCarren until he mentions Motor-Runner and his missing Ranger. Head down, find the ranger, apply first aid (needs a doctor's bag and medicine check), tell the ranger to evac, kill Motor-Runner, take his hat as proof of the kill, return for NCR fame and a 300 cap bounty. You get another NCR fame boost for saving the ranger on top of the one for completing the quest.

I completed Abba Dabba Honeymoon long ago, so that's not going to be an issue. Looks like I just gotta see an NCR commander about some bounty hunting then.

[Triaxx]

.22LR is the one exception that's used in Rifles and Pistols. (Though they do make a production .750 Nitro Express revolver but... yeah, bit of an outlier.)

One note of cross-compatibility. You can but should not fire 5.56 Military Pressure rounds from a .223 rifle, basically it will blow up in your face. Not might, WILL. That said, you can fire .223 from one designed for 5.56, but you might have to manually operate the action.

Several nations use 7.62x51 rifles, most notably the SCAR series, and the FN FAL.

Edit: Ah, okay, so Balmas, you did NOT get power armor training. What you got was Fitted Power Armor, which is an FWE thing that lets you use power armor without training, but you won't get the full benefit until you receive the training. (There's a perk for it I believe, and then a second rank which gives enhanced abilities.)

[Balmas]

On the other hand, I never quite agreed with the stupid high damage from all the FWE'd weapons.

Eh, I think that the higher weapon damage mostly came about as a backlash against the super-weak bullets of vanilla Fallout 3. I mean, in Vanilla it's not unusual to need a few 3-round bursts from an assault rifle to bring someone down, or multiple .32 headshots. Given the choice between the two, I'd much rather have bullets that feel dangerous than bullets that feel wimpy.

[quote]I think perhaps the .223 and .44 should have their damage reversed. I hate to bring realism into it, but a .44 is a much larger round than the 5.56. Out of the very short barrel on a revolver, or any pistol, the round is much slower, and wouldn't do the same damage.]

It works in the Fallout-verse, because you've also got ghouls, super mutants, and other SCIENCE!! floating around, so we've already effectively tossed the laws of thermodynamics into the 'optional' pile already. I can willfully ignore the fact that bullets and guns do not work that way in favor of Rule of Cool. I mean, simply firing the Sawed Off Shotgun, as presented (Pistol grip SBS, putting it into AOW category) would shatter the wrists of anyone dumb enough to fire it like a pistol, unless said person was a Super Mutant Master or Deathclaw or something similarly built to superhuman standards, but I'm willing to let it slide in favor of Rule of Cool, and giving me a holdout SBS. But realistically... no, the .44 magnum is going to be doing FAR more damage than a revolver firing .223 rifle rounds.

Aye, true enough. If we're arguing purely from ballistics, then it'd be a lot different. However, I don't really know enough about ballistic weapons to say which bullets are most powerful, and even then the introduction of energy weapons kinda throw damage comparisons out the window.

Edit: Ah, okay, so Balmas, you did NOT get power armor training. What you got was Fitted Power Armor, which is an FWE thing that lets you use power armor without training, but you won't get the full benefit until you receive the training. (There's a perk for it I believe, and then a second rank which gives enhanced abilities.)

Yep, and you get the perk too. I just checked.

[Triaxx]

Ah, excellent. I know it's possible to wear fitted without the perk but it's really bad. But getting the perk is absolutely awesome.

Yeah, the damage thing is something NV fixed to some extent. Of course the change to DT from DR also helped.

Something I've noticed before is how things like FWE's Primary Needs are almost always unbalanced, an either non-existent or punishing hard. I almost always end up turning them off, but I always turn Hardcore Mode on.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

.22LR is the one exception that's used in Rifles and Pistols. (Though they do make a production .750 Nitro Express revolver but... yeah, bit of an outlier.)

One note of cross-compatibility. You can but should not fire 5.56 Military Pressure rounds from a .223 rifle, basically it will blow up in your face. Not might, WILL. That said, you can fire .223 from one designed for 5.56, but you might have to manually operate the action.

Correct, although I question the wisdom of firing .223 out of 5.56 unless it is literally the only thing you have left.

Several nations use 7.62x51 rifles, most notably the SCAR series, and the FN FAL.

True, but 30-06 rounds are still loaded to higher bore pressure. Not enough, maybe, to automatically make it explode, but enough that I personally would consider it unsafe. But that's a debate that has been going on since the '50's.

[Triaxx]

True, but it's much cheaper to get your hands on .223 than surplus 5.56.

30-06 is 7.62x63mm, with the .308 being the 7.62x51mm.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Ironically, this got me and a few friends hashing out a novel akin to the old James Bond books, with the vehicle being significantly loaded for bear. They opted to use an M240 instead of the classic Ma Duce, saving some 50 lbs just for the gun itself plus the lighter ammo of 7.62 NATO vs .50BMG. Which gave them enough weight to throw in a Mk 19 Grenade Launcher as well, although there was some discussion about dropping it down to a 25mm grenade autocannon like the XM307, which has recoil suppressors that permit it to potentially be loaded into drones, and so can more safely be launched from a moving vehicle without altering said vehicle's trajectory due to recoil.

Oh, and instead of dropping caltrops, which continue to present a hazard to innocent civilians driving down the road after your combat scene is over, just use a spray paint smokescreen that sticks to windshields. Simple and effective.

Computer support to include GPS navigation, including 'smart car' capability, weapon platform targeting capability, and fully automated Teasmade built into the console, since this is a British super-spy we are talking about.

[DigoDragon]

Taking out the Fiends at Vault 3 was real satisfying. Because they were friendly to me at first, I just set a bunch of bottlecap mines around their leader, Motor Runner. I'd feel bad for the fact he just sat there happily as I backed up with the detonate, but that was too damn funny. He was turned to a misty paste. At that point it was a lot of run-and-gun action in the halls on my way through the vault. Rex was a beast in tight corners. So, that was fun. ^_^

Hmm, seems I'm getting real close to finishing the game now.

[Triaxx]

Consider the XM556 Microgun instead, which is a bit more than half the weight, and makes up for it's tiny little bullets by throwing lots of them down range. Much as I love the M2, it's probably over kill unless you're after someone in an uparmored vehicle, and then destroying the road surface with the grenade launcher is probably the easier option.

I remember hearing some suggestions about a tar smoke that basically hung in the air like regular smoke until you tried to drive through and it'd stick like tar to the windscreen. Of course the next one was to ask how to stop it sticking to everything ELSE.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Consider the XM556 Microgun instead, which is a bit more than half the weight, and makes up for it's tiny little bullets by throwing lots of them down range. Much as I love the M2, it's probably over kill unless you're after someone in an uparmored vehicle, and then destroying the road surface with the grenade launcher is probably the easier option.

I remember hearing some suggestions about a tar smoke that basically hung in the air like regular smoke until you tried to drive through and it'd stick like tar to the windscreen. Of course the next one was to ask how to stop it sticking to everything ELSE.

The microgun isn't any lighter than the M240, they're both around 30 lbs. The Microgun was a novel attempt, but unfortunately they tried to pitch a weapon intended to serve against vehicles that fired only 5.56mm ammo, which really isn't enough. The M240 fires 7.62 NATO rounds, which is big and heavy enough to mission-kill light vehicles. For anything more than that, you can break out the grenade launcher.

[Balmas]

Something I've noticed before is how things like FWE's Primary Needs are almost always unbalanced, an either non-existent or punishing hard. I almost always end up turning them off, but I always turn Hardcore Mode on.

Ugh, yes, I know. It's a good idea in principle, but the execution leaves a lot to be desired. The need for nearly every resource is entirely too high, so that if you're not actively thinking about food every ten real-time minutes, you're going to start suffering deleterious effects. You need to sleep something like ten hours a day, which wouldn't be so bad if you could make up for a night of skipped sleep with a full day of sleep. The worst is that eating or drinking too much is actually a bad thing, and you don't know how much is enough until the little notice pops up in the corner. So, your options come down to either waiting the three-ish seconds for the notification to appear after every single item consumed, spamming the items and just praying you don't go over the limit, or giving up and turning the whole thing off.

[Triaxx]

We may be seeing a different Microgun because the one I'm looking at says it's 16lbs, though I am willing to say that's the unloaded weight.

I know a lot of the FWE team went on to Project Nevada, and that ended up with an EXTREMELY fine ability to adjust the amount that food, water and
sleep rose. It was pretty nice to see.

[Caelestion]

Apparently, you can now get the Horse Armour and Prey suit from the CC for free "for a limited time".

[Triaxx]

I could if I could convince it to work at all.

[Balmas]

I can't believe that I've spent so long before figuring you can use FO3Edit to actually change weapon values instead of waiting five minutes for the GECK to figure out it should be loaded.

Also, Triaxx, was that a Veggietales reference in the last TTW episode? "It vas nice to meet you! Now, go away~"

Also, watching it made me think of the many ways that Fallout 3 could have been better. Autumn's entire plan seems to be "purify bay, give out water, unite wasteland under Enclave banner." Honestly, I've heard worse plans, since our own plan seems to be purify bay, give out water, unite wasteland under Brotherhood banner. It's a massive missed opportunity to not be able to pick a side besides "pure moral victory" and "combination suicide-genocide outta left field."

[Triaxx]

Not that I know of. I think it might have been a Pratchett reference, though I was also very irritated by that point.

I'm honestly not entirely clear why the Enclave were actually the bad guys. I mean yes, Eden was clearly a total wacko, but Autumn was only trying to restore the world to the glory of the past. Though honestly, it's basically the same plan Maxson has in Fallout 4.

[Yuki Akuma]

The Enclave are the bad guys because their idea of the "glories of the past" also include genetic purity untainted by radiation - meaning their future has no place for 99% of the Wasteland's population.

[Triaxx]

Okay, but who says that besides Eden? Autumn mostly seems annoyed that you've tried to take control of the purifier, but it feels more like dueling political parties than good vs evil groups.

[factotum]

The Enclave are the bad guys because their idea of the "glories of the past" also include genetic purity untainted by radiation - meaning their future has no place for 99% of the Wasteland's population.

The main problem with the FO3 storyline is that there's never really any feeling that water is actually a problem in the first place. I mean, the Mr Handy you get in the house you can own in Megaton can produce as much pure water as you ask him for, apparently out of thin air, and he's definitely not the only Mr. Handy around the place. So, why does the Enclave want the water purifier? They can only two things with it--switch it on, or not switch it on--and the second of those is quite handily done by just leaving the place as a super mutant base. If they switch it on, then the Potomac gets purified, and how do they limit access to this new, purer river to only those genetically pure people that they want to have it? Set up guard posts every hundred yards along both banks?

[Triaxx]

Hang on, how exactly is 7.62x51mm rare if you have an infinite supply of scrap and thus ammo?

[The_Jackal]

I think perhaps the .223 and .44 should have their damage reversed. I hate to bring realism into it, but a .44 is a much larger round than the 5.56. Out of the very short barrel on a revolver, or any pistol, the round is much slower, and wouldn't do the same damage.

Here's a good article on why that may not be appropriate, written by a military medic.

I'm not sure the damage works that way, even in real life. A small, fast-moving bullet will leave a very small wound. A big, slow-moving bullet is likely to tumble when it hits something and will really tear things up quite badly. The only situation where the .223 would definitely be the better round would be against armoured targets, because it's more likely to penetrate to the fleshy bits.

If the .223 expends most of it's considerably higher energy into the target, it's going to do more damage, and I think if the .44 magnum was a universally better round to fire in CQB, then modern firearms design would be trending away from small-zippy rounds toward slower, heavier ones. The reverse is what's happening.