Babylon 5 Group Re-Watch!

[factotum]

*There is ''space'' between the space claimed by each race? Like an ''ocean''?

*The mysterious raiders are hitting the between spaces...ok. But is that not an obvious place to attack...like maybe you should not even have ''open you can attack me here space''.

*Is there any reason they don't use the Rangers to get the poor pilot? Is this not the perfect and exact sort of thing the Rangers do? A couple Rangers...really even one...would have been a huge help to Garabaldi.

*So the Drac have the Regent send...um...Centari Palace Guards out to do Top Secret Impossible Missions? Is that right? And even if you do send Centari Palace Guards out to do Top Secret Impossible Missions....is there some reason they wear their easily identifiable and obvious Centari Palace Guard uniform?

- Doesn't seem unreasonable to me. With the vast majority of star systems expected to be red dwarf stars, probably with no planets to speak of, who would bother claiming those? Same applies to most of interstellar space, where there are no resources to be had. It's like that chunk of land in Africa which is claimed by no nation because the two countries either side draw the border in different places, leaving out this little hole.

- The biggest problem with raiders attacking in empty space goes back to that discussion we had in one of the early season episodes--why are these ships not in hyperspace when travelling through the empty regions? What purpose is served by dropping out of hyperspace in the back end of nowhere and then presumably going back *in* to hyperspace to complete your journey? This has always been a problem with the underlying mechanics of the show.

- Yeah, agreed on the Rangers, but Garibaldi did say that his friend on Drazi Prime wouldn't trust anyone else, so I suppose we have to accept that.

- The whole idea that the Regent is somehow doing all this stuff without the majority of his own government (including high ranking officials like Londo) knowing what he's up to is a bit weaksauce, IMHO. Even if he *did* have to send the Palace Guard (because he can't tell anyone else about it), sending them in their official uniforms with cloaks over the top to hide them is just nonsense; it's the hand of the author showing. I think at this point JMS was getting a bit fatigued with all the writing (bearing in mind he'd written every episode other than "Day of the Dead" since season 2) and his craftsmanship was suffering.

[Darth Ultron]

Anyway, for this episode to really have an impact we needed to actually like Byron, and as I've said, he's about as likeable as an incontinent wolverine, so it really kind of falls flat--it's more "Thank God he's gone" rather than "Awww, that's a shame".

I for one hated Byron and was glad he was gone.

although it would obviously have been better if it were Ivanova meeting her old friend rather than Lochley, who was only introduced half a season ago. Still, that was Neil Gaiman's decision, not JMS.

It might have been nice to bring back Keefer, Marcus, Refa, Cartaza, or Taila. An Ivonvana and Taila meeting might have been nice....even more so with the twist of ''two'' ghost Taila's: the good and bad one. Though it could have been Ivonana's brother too..

But while ''reunion'' shows like this are fun...they have the real life problem of if you can't get the actor to come back, then the character can not come back.

Thoughts: The stuff with Garibaldi's returning alcoholism is just going too fast, and seems to have a rather weak basis--I mean, he already went through all kinds of hell with Bester during the Shadow War, why is the latest stuff enough to push him over the edge? I definitely think the boozing would have started during season 4 if JMS knew he would get a season 5, to give it time to settle in.

It is a bit sudden, but that is Tv for you. It would have been nice to add it right at the end of season 4...and like most things it would only take all of 15 seconds to have Garabaladi sit down and pour a drink or such.

And still, they could have put it right at the start of season 5...and you know build it up slowly. Like take the Mac and Bo show...one bit where they see Garabaldi walk by with a bottle he just bought.

I don't think it *is* the Telepath War? That was always implied to be telepaths rising up against mundanes, not telepath against telepath, and I don't think it was ever meant to happen during the five-year run of the show--it was more something that JMS could have used as a sequel series.

Does this mean we never see the telepahy war? Psicore is gone by Crusade.

Garibaldi isn't a telepath himself, how would he know that they can do things like the Asimov block? He probably thought Bester was entirely out of his head after he freed him on Mars.

I'm not a telepath and I knew Bester did this the first time I watched B5.

But this is a TV thing...the character Garabaldi should have known this too....but if he did you would not get the whole ''try and shoot me'' bit....and that bit is dramatic, so they want it in the show....so Garabaldi plays dumb.

I don't see killing as being a necessary part of PsiCop training? The problem is that the only real example we have of a PsiCop is Bester himself, and he might not be the norm. Maybe most PsiCops see killing as an unfortunately necessary part of their jobs sometimes, not the first response?

Well, Psicore seems pretty evil....even people other then Bester. But I think they are a ''kill the puppy'' type group...or even more so ''kill your best friend '' group.

And from the writing side....do we ever see a ''good'' Psicop?

Couple of possibilities occur. Firstly, maybe the Brakiri just assume everyone knows about it so don't bother telling them? Alternatively, they might not think the Day of the Dead will affect non-Brakiri so don't see a need to tell them.

It just feels like a ''gottcha'' for the audience. Like in-universe someone would say something about it....but the Brakri are like ''it is just another day, move along, nothing to see here....hehe".

The biggest problem with raiders attacking in empty space goes back to that discussion we had in one of the early season episodes--why are these ships not in hyperspace when travelling through the empty regions? What purpose is served by dropping out of hyperspace in the back end of nowhere and then presumably going back *in* to hyperspace to complete your journey? This has always been a problem with the underlying mechanics of the show.

Yea, as you need a jump gate to get places, the planet your going to needs to be in the same solar system. And that would put you always ''close'' to a planet, and other ships and space stations too.

Cargo ships can't make jump points, but even if they did they would just pop out next to their destination.

Yeah, agreed on the Rangers, but Garibaldi did say that his friend on Drazi Prime wouldn't trust anyone else, so I suppose we have to accept that.

He would not need to bring them to the meeting.

But my point is more...are there not rangers everywhere...like every world...watching and listening? IS that not a huge part of what rangers do?

The whole idea that the Regent is somehow doing all this stuff without the majority of his own government (including high ranking officials like Londo) knowing what he's up to is a bit weaksauce, IMHO. Even if he *did* have to send the Palace Guard (because he can't tell anyone else about it), sending them in their official uniforms with cloaks over the top to hide them is just nonsense; it's the hand of the author showing. I think at this point JMS was getting a bit fatigued with all the writing (bearing in mind he'd written every episode other than "Day of the Dead" since season 2) and his craftsmanship was suffering.

I think so too....after years of B5, he just wanted it to be over.

[GloatingSwine]

The whole telepath arc suffered from the end of season 4 shenanigans.

It should have been a lot shorter because the first 5-6 episodes of season 5 would originally have wrapped up the Earth Civil War (Intersections in Real Time would have been the last episode of S4).

That meant roughly twice as much Byron as the original plan, and since Byron contained 107% of your RDA of Insufferable Smugness, that was a health hazard.

[Rodin]

Does this mean we never see the telepahy war? Psicore is gone by Crusade.

Yup. A Call to Arms (the Crusade lead-in movie) states that the Telepath War finished "recently". So it happened sometime in or after 2263, is over before 2267, and we see none of it. Weak.

Frankly, a spinoff series following a group of people on Earth during the Telepath War would have been a lot more interesting than Crusade ever was. There's a big enough time period for a several year story in there, it could have had Bester featuring as a major villain rather than the drop-in character he was in the main show, and there's a lot of scope for intrigue.

[factotum]

Frankly, a spinoff series following a group of people on Earth during the Telepath War would have been a lot more interesting than Crusade ever was.

Agreed. I think Crusade's biggest problem was that it was trying to be Star Trek in the B5 universe, and Star Trek does a better job of being Star Trek than B5 can ever hope to be--JMS really should have stuck to his show's strengths, and Bester is definitely one of those strengths. He probably wouldn't even have had much trouble getting Walter Koenig in as a recurring character, given that Star Trek had moved onto TNG movies by this point.

[Algeh]

I believe JMS was "saving" the Telepath War for the theatrical movie he kept trying to get made at various times.

Whenever I re-watch B5, I'm pretty frustrated that he does not seem to have given up on that and given us some kind of reasonable resolution to his big dangling plot hook in some other form by now (such as a timeline posted online somewhere or something). I mean, yeah, I'd rather have seen it as a movie than as a list, but clearly that movie's not going to happen so I'd like to have a somewhat clearer idea what that part of the continuity was supposed to be since it had a lot of build-up I had to sit through for pretty much no payoff compared to what I'd come to expect of B5.

[Algeh]

This week, we'll be discussing:

• The Corps is Mother, The Corps is Father
• Meditations on the Abyss
• Darkness Ascending

Feel free to discuss anything from the Babylon 5 series without using spoiler tags if you so choose. Please continue to use spoiler tags for things unrelated to Babylon 5 as you would in any other media thread.

The Corps is Mother, The Corps is Father is my own personal "cursed" episode. Originally, my dad was taping 5th season for me because I didn't have cable (I was living in the dorms at college at the time), and this was the one episode where something went wrong and I didn't get the original airing taped. (I was able to get it recorded later.)

Then, when I bought the DVD box sets, there was a scratch or flaw in the disc for...The Corps is Mother, The Corps is Father. I ended up buying the 5th season box set twice.

That has nothing to do with anything, but I figured I'd share anyway.

[factotum]

The Corps is Mother, the Corps is Father: Bester has to babysit a pair of new recruits to Psi Corps (Lauren and Chen). Meanwhile, a fugitive telepath (a "blip") heads off to B5 after apparently having killed someone at Corps HQ. The suspected murderer (Harris) is only a P10, but he's a trained "mind shredder" who could maybe even kill Bester himself. He does a bit of blackjack on B5 and wins big--one of the losers confronts him in a corridor and demands his money back, to which Harris screams "You shouldn't get him upset!" and blends the guy's brain.
The Psi Corps mothership (which apparently spends all its time in hyperspace to avoid detection) drops off Bester and his trainees in a shuttle. They discover the dead gambler, whose brain damage is far greater than a P10 should have been capable of--Bester sends Lauren to get more info from Psi Corps, and sends Chen to get more info Downbelow, who gets stabbed by a guy who's working with Harris for 10% of his gambling profits. Lauren comes back with a recording of Harris' last training session, which makes Bester realise the guy is a multiple personality where the "other" personality is a P12.
Along with security they ambush Harris and his friend. Bester gets shot in the shoulder but barely gives Franklin time to patch him up before leaving the station with the prisoners. On the journey Lauren asks if she can deal with the mundane prisoner--on being given permission she puts him out the airlock without a suit. Bester approves, saying she might just be Psi Corps material after all.

Thoughts: Can't help but wonder why Harris chose to go to B5--he must surely know what happened to Byron and his friends when they tried the same trick? It's also really odd that a guy with multiple personality disorder can have different telepathic powers depending which one they're in--you would think that the power rating of a telepath would be related to brain structure and chemistry, not whatever personality they happen to have installed. Overall, any episode with Bester in is watchable, but this isn't his best by any means. Also, it kind of puts the lie to my suggestion a few posts ago that maybe not all Psi Cops are as murderous as Bester is, when this is the sort of training they put them through!

Meditations on the Abyss: Delenn has a secret meeting with Lennier in a corridor Downbelow. She asks him to investigate the Centauri--since he's had more experience with them than any other Ranger while acting as her aide, he's best placed to find out what they're up to. She doesn't want Sheridan to know because he would stop Lennier if he knew about this (since he would think she would be hurt if Lennier died). Lennier boards White Star 27. His first mission is to scout an area with a Minbari colleague, but when they launch they find they only have one hour of air aboard their ships, and the White Star jumps away before they can contact it. They're almost out of air when it jumps back in--it was all part of the exercise, since they might be left behind at any time; the mission the ship is doing is more important than any of its crew.
Next training mission is to find 39 short-range homing devices in an asteroid field, with each Ranger needing to find 10. Since there are four trainees one is guaranteed to fail, and Findell thinks that's him. He tries to kill himself by ramming an asteroid so as to not bear the shame of failure, but Lennier rams him off course, saving his life. The Captain on the White Star assigns Findell to a post on Minbar, making sure that Ranger trainees are joining for the right reason--since Findell himself only joined to follow his family tradition, he's perfectly suited for this. Lennier is failed on the asteroid hunt, but the Captain secretly tells him he did well, and to learn the lesson that he shouldn't assume no-one can listen on a private channel.
Vir is to be the new Centauri ambassador to Babylon 5 when Londo returns to Centauri Prime. He goes to investigate a Drazi bug that was left in a basket of fruit, only to be rebuffed by the vendor. He goes and gets a sword, smashes up the vendor's stand, and demands information.
The Drazi appear to be aware of the Centauri being behind the attacks, and believe the Alliance are only not doing anything about it because they need the Centauri on side.

Thoughts: So, the Centauri being behind these attacks is really, totally top secret, yet somehow the Drazi have found out about it? Also, those training exercises are a bit savage--the Rangers don't mess around! It's an OK episode, not stellar but watchable.

Darkness Ascending: Garibaldi has a nightmare of blood and fire, from which he awakes to see Lyta sitting on his bed, saying she no longer wants to hide what the Vorlons did to her, but he should not have waken up. He then wakes up again to an empty room. Lise then walks in, come to find out why he didn't keep his promise to only stay on B5 for a short time. She finds a bottle of booze and confronts Garibaldi about it--he promises not to drink while she's there. He sneaks out while they're in a restaurant and pours alcohol from a small vial into his coffee, though.
Delenn has a call with Lennier, who tells her that there are secret messages from the Centauri before the last three attacks, which he hopes to decode soon. Sheridan happens to hear the tail end of this call, so he knows now what Lennier is up to. He recalls White Star 27 with immediate effect. Lennier leaves the ship, trying to track down the staging base he's sure is out there. His air supply won't last to his destination, so he goes into a meditation trance to conserve oxygen. He's almost out of air when a Centauri ship overtakes him--he attaches himself stealthily to it and draws air from it. He follows the ship to its staging base and on to another convoy destruction, where he records everything and then hides in the debris until rescued. Sheridan now has the proof he needs of the Centauri involvement in the convoy attacks.
Lyta is trying to arrange a deal where a bunch of 200 telepaths will search in a ship, using telepathy to assist with first contact situations and, if they find a habitable planet, they can colonise it. Unfortunately, using rogue telepaths in this way would invalidate the insurance and the contract with the Psi Corps of any business, so she can't find anyone to help her. She therefore asks G'Kar, who already offered to buy telepath DNA from her way back when. After discussion with his government he agrees, but only if the telepaths "listen in" to the other governments for the Narn. She refuses. G'Kar tells them the condition was fake--he wanted to see if she could be trusted, and since she refused, he knows she can. The telepaths will get want they want.
Londo is told by the Minister that Sheridan is going to blame the Centauri for the attacks and fabricate evidence if necessary.

Thoughts: It's a solid episode, but the whole thing with Lennier riding along with the Centauri ship is a bit silly. Firstly, how is he withdrawing air from inside it? Are the hulls on those ships so tissue-thin that he can drill silently through? It's also pushing belief that nobody ever notices this unwanted addition to one of their ships, especially when he detaches from it to hide in the debris field.

[tomandtish]

Sorry all. Real life got away from me for a bit.

*There is ''space'' between the space claimed by each race? Like an ''ocean''?

Yep. As maps show there are large chunks of space with presumably no planets/star systems of enough significance to be occupied So no one has bothered claiming them.

*The mysterious raiders are hitting the between spaces...ok. But is that not an obvious place to attack...like maybe you should not even have ''open you can attack me here space''.

Look at it like large chunks of the Pacific in the past. There are places where there's no real way to have land based support, and in the days before naval aviation, you were basically out there on your own. Same for crossing the Atlantic. You could make the crossing itself a smaller distance, but only by adding days to the journey.

*Bit odd that Garabaldi has his video phone in the bed room...and when he says ''receive'' it turns on the video? With him half dressed in bed, this seems like a bad idea.

Think this came up in an earlier conversation. Presumably it's a setting. Not one I'D choose, but to each their own....

*So now the principles of the alliance have some sort of official legal binding on all the governments?

Fairly realistic. We aren't going to tell you what you can do, but we ARE going to tell you what you CAN'T do if you want to be with us.

*The new Interstellar Alliance Black Market sure got set up in like seconds.....

If it took more than 2-3 days the criminals are really slacking in the future.

*The Darazi Homeworld does not really look alien enough: stone columns, street lights, sliding doors, tall candles, balconies and K-mart furniture.

IKEA... You will be assimilated.

I for one hated Byron and was glad he was gone.

I can't argue this. He wasn't very charismatic, and I found him boring.

It might have been nice to bring back Keefer, Marcus, Refa, Cartaza, or Taila. An Ivonvana and Taila meeting might have been nice....even more so with the twist of ''two'' ghost Taila's: the good and bad one. Though it could have been Ivonana's brother too..

As you noted, quite a few of them aren't available (and at that time Claudia was definitely on the outs and probably would not have been asked back anyway). Also, too many and you don't get anything of significance since they become too short. (Whether they chose the right ones is another issue entirely.

Lochley is chosen to give us a little more background, including the event that turned her life around. Problem is, it's season 5 and (as it turns out) the last season, so they are wasting exposition time on her.

Londo gets to meet up again with one of the only two women he ever loved. He gets closure. Yay?

Garibaldi's is actually more subtle. He gets reunited with someone whom he thought he might care about. However, at the end he's lost her again. It helps contribute more to his slide. Insult is added to injury when work gets in the way of personal life again!

Lennier gets Morden, who is playing on his feelings for Delenn by indicating he will betray Sheridan AND saying things that may make him question things Sheridan has said (Sheridan didn't die, for example).

Does this mean we never see the telepahy war? Psicore is gone by Crusade.

As others have said, correct. The closest we get is The Psi Corps Trilogy.

Well, Psicore seems pretty evil....even people other then Bester. But I think they are a ''kill the puppy'' type group...or even more so ''kill your best friend '' group.

And from the writing side....do we ever see a ''good'' Psicop?

One that we would obviously call good? probably not. Calling them all evil? May be a stretch.

I always thought of Bester like Magneto. He "knows" a war is coming between humans and telepaths, and is taking steps early to make sure his side wins. In fairness, there are a lot of humans who believe the same thing.

Agreed. I think Crusade's biggest problem was that it was trying to be Star Trek in the B5 universe, and Star Trek does a better job of being Star Trek than B5 can ever hope to be--JMS really should have stuck to his show's strengths, and Bester is definitely one of those strengths. He probably wouldn't even have had much trouble getting Walter Koenig in as a recurring character, given that Star Trek had moved onto TNG movies by this point.

It's hard to judge Crusade fairly, because there was so much executive meddling that you almost can't tell what the original product was supposed to be. Combine that with the fact that they knew they weren't getting a second season by the time the first episode aired (before first ratings ever came in, and you can tell JMS pretty much gave up.

Thoughts: Can't help but wonder why Harris chose to go to B5--he must surely know what happened to Byron and his friends when they tried the same trick? It's also really odd that a guy with multiple personality disorder can have different telepathic powers depending which one they're in--you would think that the power rating of a telepath would be related to brain structure and chemistry, not whatever personality they happen to have installed. Overall, any episode with Bester in is watchable, but this isn't his best by any means. Also, it kind of puts the lie to my suggestion a few posts ago that maybe not all Psi Cops are as murderous as Bester is, when this is the sort of training they put them through!

Agreed that the different ranking is strange. One possibility is that part of the ranking is dependent on what they think you'll be able to access, which may be already determined by the time your powers manifest based on your upbringing, experiences, etc. Therefore a new personality might be stronger or weaker.

The other possibility would be an organic dissociative disorder. It would be exceedingly unlikely for one to actually create a multiple personality state (as opposed to amnesia, or a new personality when an old one was severely damaged), but if it did, it's possible that damage opened up new routes that were previously unavailable. The old personality uses the old pathways because that is what is familiar. If this was the case, note that it is possible with training that the old personality might be able to reach the new power levels.

[Darth Ultron]

The Corps is Mother, The Corps is Father

It is a very special Psi Core Episode...Trust the Corps

Like that nice touch of the ''subliminal messages'' all over the Psi Core building saying things like "OBEY".

50% of Telepaths that leave the Core commit suicide...LOL, yea right....bet they do that shot multiple times in the back of the head suicide...

Don't know If anyone mentioned it...but Bester always keeps his left hand in a fist. This was a little something Walter Koenig added to the character and it is never mentioned in the show at all.

Well young miss Lauren Ashley sure gives a good example of you need to be a Evil Murderhobo to join the Psi Core Cops....


Things that don't Make Sense

*Bester mentions how long a human telepath can hold a deep scan...40 minutes or so...But what about the aliens? Is there a special alien training too?

*Bester says that the ''world'' does not need to know about the Psi Core Fleet. Guess the world he is talking about is Earth, but still it's an odd thing to say when the Earth alliance covers at least a dozen worlds and places.

*Even if the Psi-Fleet is only a couple ships, like say five, that would imply a LOT of telepath crew, right? Like a hundred or so per ship right? That's a lot of telepaths to just be doing something. Or are these all the P1 to P4 telepaths?

*Wonder where the Psi Ships do maintenance so they are not seen?

*So Byron was of a high enough rank to know about the Secret Psi Fleet, right? So Lyta would know too...right? And, well, lots of telepaths would know too, right?

*So Bester has the Psi Ship fly through hyperspace until it's close to B5, then they take the shuttle over and ''act normal''. Well, except, the travel time would not match right? The Psi Ship would be way faster then the shuttle, so would that not get noticed? Would it not be better to just use the shuttle?

*So how does the Babcom unit record from the angle we see? We see an angle from above and off to the side...but it is sure not the angle that would be from the Bab TV screen.

*The Psi Cops arrest a mundane criminal...is that right? Thought they only handled telepath crime.

*So won't EarthGov Law ask what happened to the arrested criminal guy? Or will Bester just come up with his 2,341 st story of something like ''he tried to escape and in the struggle fell outside the airlock''.

*And they just space the guy? Seems kinda quick....don't they want to put an illusion in his head that he is being chased by Bigfoot or something?

Final- D, It's not a bed idea to have a Psi Core episode....but this is just yet another running telepath cop chase show. And we have seen that story too many times. Though Bester gets some nice parts.

[tomandtish]

Don't know If anyone mentioned it...but Bester always keeps his left hand in a fist. This was a little something Walter Koenig added to the character and it is never mentioned in the show at all.

It's actually from telepathic/psychological trauma, and was explained in the Psi Corps trilogy, but yes, added originally by Koenig.

*Bester mentions how long a human telepath can hold a deep scan...40 minutes or so...But what about the aliens? Is there a special alien training too?

Presumably. Doesn't mean we know the specifics.

*Bester says that the ''world'' does not need to know about the Psi Core Fleet. Guess the world he is talking about is Earth, but still it's an odd thing to say when the Earth alliance covers at least a dozen worlds and places.

While technically it should be worlds, doesn;t surprise me that he uses a singular world when talking about humanity in general. Just like a news story i saw talked about how upcoming winter storms are going to hammer the US, even though quite a few states aren't going to be hit (even before you get to Hawaii, Puerto Rico, etc.).

*Even if the Psi-Fleet is only a couple ships, like say five, that would imply a LOT of telepath crew, right? Like a hundred or so per ship right? That's a lot of telepaths to just be doing something. Or are these all the P1 to P4 telepaths?

As noted previously, the telepath population is huge (a lot higher than I would have made it). For every billion humans there are a million telepaths.

*So Byron was of a high enough rank to know about the Secret Psi Fleet, right? So Lyta would know too...right? And, well, lots of telepaths would know too, right?

Lyta was a P5 and a commercial telepath. Byron was a P12 and Bester's protege until he went rogue. Even IF he knew, doesn't mean Lyta knows. And yeah, depending on the size of the ships, probably a fair number do know. Presumably they've been deep scanned and are trusted.

*So Bester has the Psi Ship fly through hyperspace until it's close to B5, then they take the shuttle over and ''act normal''. Well, except, the travel time would not match right? The Psi Ship would be way faster then the shuttle, so would that not get noticed? Would it not be better to just use the shuttle?

Actually, because of the way travel in B5 works, that isn't automatically true. Bigger ships aren't automatically faster than smaller ones. Star Furys are faster than Earth Force Destroyers, for example. Tie Fighters are faster than Star Destroyers. Just like in real life where fighters are faster than transports/airliners.

And because of the way B5 handles FTL, the main issue is entering/creating a jump gate. But once you enter you still move based on your own speed. Hyperspace enhances the distance traveled, but you still move based on your own engines. The limiting factors are range of your ship and whether you need an external jump gate to enter/exit.

*The Psi Cops arrest a mundane criminal...is that right? Thought they only handled telepath crime.

Probably what they specialize in, but if they are recognized law enforcement officers they probably can intervene if needed.

[factotum]

And because of the way B5 handles FTL, the main issue is entering/creating a jump gate. But once you enter you still move based on your own speed. Hyperspace enhances the distance traveled, but you still move based on your own engines. The limiting factors are range of your ship and whether you need an external jump gate to enter/exit.

Also, the B5 staff would have to know exactly when Bester and Co. left Earth in order to make any assessment like that, and we have no evidence that they have this information.

[Darth Ultron]

While technically it should be worlds, doesn;t surprise me that he uses a singular world when talking about humanity in general. Just like a news story i saw talked about how upcoming winter storms are going to hammer the US, even though quite a few states aren't going to be hit (even before you get to Hawaii, Puerto Rico, etc.).

Except every time someone in B5 says ''word'', it is like someone saying ''state'', when they mean more then one state. They don't say ''the winter storm will effect The State from Boston down to Charleston. You don't say highway 77 goes from New York to Portland across the state. Same way you don't say ''the new law goes into effect in Iowa and will effect everyone in the city''...you'd say ''state'' if it was a state wide law.

By your reasoning Bester should have said Earth Alliance, and not World.

Also, the B5 staff would have to know exactly when Bester and Co. left Earth in order to make any assessment like that, and we have no evidence that they have this information.

True, but in a general sense there is no reason to zoom around the galaxy when you need to pretend your not doing it. If it take an hour to drive somewhere, and someone is doing something sneaky and shows up in just thirty minutes....sooner or later it will get noticed, even casually by someone. And that would blow the secret.

[Inchhighguy]

Thoughts: Can't help but wonder why Harris chose to go to B5--he must surely know what happened to Byron and his friends when they tried the same trick? It's also really odd that a guy with multiple personality disorder can have different telepathic powers depending which one they're in--you would think that the power rating of a telepath would be related to brain structure and chemistry, not whatever personality they happen to have installed. Overall, any episode with Bester in is watchable, but this isn't his best by any means. Also, it kind of puts the lie to my suggestion a few posts ago that maybe not all Psi Cops are as murderous as Bester is, when this is the sort of training they put them through!

Harris goes to B5 as the name of the show is Babylon 5. Real life writes the plot.

I kinda wonder too, is gambling the best way to telepathicaly get money? Can't he just mind read PIN numbers and such? Then clean out an account? Or mind control someone to give him money?

I guess each personality can use different parts of the brain...that sort of make some sense. Or maybe they are a P12, but personalities One and Two can't tap into that?

[huttj509]

Harris goes to B5 as the name of the show is Babylon 5. Real life writes the plot.

I kinda wonder too, is gambling the best way to telepathicaly get money? Can't he just mind read PIN numbers and such? Then clean out an account? Or mind control someone to give him money?

Those are both straight up theft. Cheating at gambling is easier to morally reconcile, even if it's a similar/same thing.

[Darth Ultron]

Meditations on the Abyss

Another season five episode

So B5 has a McDonalds?


Things that don't Make Sense

*Is it really a good idea for Deleen to go to the Worst Place On Babylon 5 alone? Sure, she can break Peppy La Pue's finger...but can she really handle a typical underworld thug? Maybe like take a Ranger along?

*And why oh why, when someone wants to meet ''unseen by others'', do they always go for the most vile and evil bar night club on B5. Sure a lot of stuff is not open late, but does not B5 have things like Denny's, IHop or Loves Travelcenters?

*Would not Linear be a bit more popular and well known?

*Wonder why everyone always says ''Darzi Ambassador'' and not ''Sokarth'' or whatever the guys name is...

*So Garabaldi read G'Kar's copy of the book of G'Quan and got coffee stains on it. But when did Garbaldi ever get to read the original book of G'Kar and get a coffee stain on it?

*This is the first time ever we see a White Star with star fighters.....wonder why we have not seen them before?

*G'Kar talks a lot about God....but do Narn even believe in the One True Universal God?

*Guess Captain Mytona somehow thinks his Minbari trainees would know what an Easter Egg hunt is? Would even a 2260's human know what that is?

*So the AI ''Ship'' won't fire on a friendly ship....but then the pilot can just take manual control and do whatever they want? Might as well just let ''Ship'' blow stuff up too....

*Wonder why Sheridin and Deleen don't sit on the same side of the dinner table together?

*Sheridan is really, really, really quick to say the Alliance does not spy....but it's also a very, very, very stupid thing to say. Sure, in a perfect universe everything would be happy hugs and rainbows....but that is not our universe. Spying, and Intelligence, is very much a reality for governments. Think the CIA spies on everyone(oh, you bet they do....). And remember Sneaky Wise Sheridan? The one that tricked governments into doing the right thing? Where did he go to?

*Garabaldi sure orders a pizza with toppings easy enough...kinda odd as B5 is always high lighting how they have ''no good food''. Or will the Open Air Restaurant just make a Banquet Frozen Pizza?


Final-D, well this one really feels like a place holder episode...and it shows. There is a bunch of little things to set up stuff...but not very much happens.

[Knaight]

Those are both straight up theft. Cheating at gambling is easier to morally reconcile, even if it's a similar/same thing.

I'd put it more towards similar than same. At least at a gambling table everyone there is bringing money that they should be ready to lose, and if they're not ready to lose that money, well, that's not on the psychic*. That really doesn't apply to bank accounts.

In short, it's easier to morally reconcile because it's less heinous.

*I'm just going to leave this here instead of segueing into my open contempt for casinos, at least those that deal in real money.

[factotum]

*Wonder why everyone always says ''Darzi Ambassador'' and not ''Sokarth'' or whatever the guys name is...

*This is the first time ever we see a White Star with star fighters.....wonder why we have not seen them before?

*Guess Captain Mytona somehow thinks his Minbari trainees would know what an Easter Egg hunt is? Would even a 2260's human know what that is?

- Because the viewers wouldn't know who "Sokarth" is?

- That's actually a gripe I have, thinking about it. White Stars are supposed to be very small (relative to other capital ships), and there's definitely nowhere obvious on the model that a fighter could enter or leave from, so it really doesn't make much sense that they can carry fighters. This is why we've never seen it before, I think, because the White Stars were never supposed to have this capability--JMS just added it because he needed it for this one plotline.

- Is there a reason why not? Decorated eggs have been a tradition since long before there was an Easter, and it was made officially part of Easter celebrations in 1610. If we've been happily celebrating the tradition for the past four hundred years, I don't have an issue with us still doing so in another 250.

[Darth Ultron]

Darkness Ascending

Another episode

Things that don't Make Sense

*So was Lyta really Dream Stalking? Or was that a dream....

*It's kinda odd Garabaldi has his front door in his bedroom. You'd think there would be at least a small entry area by the main door.

*So, suddenly with Byron gone Lyta gets the idea to (at least try) and sell the work telepaths can do....using telepathy!. Not like dumb idiot Byron of ''we won't use our powers and just want to do menial work."

*So why was Garabaldi's bottle hidden? He lives alone....and drinks alone. So would not the bottles just be everywhere?

*Garabaldi makes the point that he has had a hard couple years...and he really has. But really, this should have started back on episode one of season 5. Not just like 15 episodes in with ''oh".

*And yet again....too bad idiot Byron did not go to G'Kar, sigh...

*Gee, so is the waiter at the restaurant some sort of alcoholic enabler or something? He really pushes the ''sir, don't you want to get drunk?"

*So everyone snubs Londo? Why? Only the Drazi think the Centari are behind the attacks, right? It's not everyone. Or have the Darazi been spreading rumors?

*So the Centari ship has no scanners or anything to detect Liner's fighter? Is Minbari stealth mode so good it's a cloaking device?

*And Stealth mode or not...would not the Centari ship detect the fighter when it physical makes contact with the ship?

*And Stealth mode or no.....would not the Centari ship detect the cutting into the hull and stealing air?

*And...well...this is a Centari Pod Ship, right? Do the Pods even need air? Do they really maintain full life support throughout the whole Centari ship?

*As Linear goes to detach from the Centari ship he is suddenly all careful and worried that he might been detected....but it just seems so silly to worry about it, as if they were going to detect him they would have done so a long time ago....

*So Linear's ship makes a full video and audio recording of a battle in space....wow, bet it has awesome 1080P stereo sound...


Final- C, it is nice to finally get to see a bit of personal life of Deleen, Sheridan and Garabaldi. And all the viewers already knew it was the Centari....

[factotum]

*It's kinda odd Garabaldi has his front door in his bedroom. You'd think there would be at least a small entry area by the main door.

*So, suddenly with Byron gone Lyta gets the idea to (at least try) and sell the work telepaths can do....using telepathy!. Not like dumb idiot Byron of ''we won't use our powers and just want to do menial work."

*So why was Garabaldi's bottle hidden? He lives alone....and drinks alone. So would not the bottles just be everywhere?

*And...well...this is a Centari Pod Ship, right? Do the Pods even need air? Do they really maintain full life support throughout the whole Centari ship?

- All the quarters in B5 are like that. It's not unreasonable--they're not houses or apartments, they're more like unusually large quarters aboard a warship.

- Lyta is not Byron and is not stupid. Pity she wasn't able to persuade him of this before he self-immolated, really.

- As we see in this very episode, people can drop in to visit him. What do you think the reaction of Sheridan would be if he popped in to have a chat with Garibaldi only to see empty booze bottles all over the place?

- Not sure what you mean by a pod ship? As far as I know, all the Centauri ships taking part in these attacks are regular Centauri warships run by regular Centauri crews--there's no need to suborn the entire crew when you can just suborn the people giving the orders.

[Darth Ultron]

- That's actually a gripe I have, thinking about it. White Stars are supposed to be very small (relative to other capital ships), and there's definitely nowhere obvious on the model that a fighter could enter or leave from, so it really doesn't make much sense that they can carry fighters. This is why we've never seen it before, I think, because the White Stars were never supposed to have this capability--JMS just added it because he needed it for this one plotline.

I guess White Stars do have hanger bays, at least big enough for a Earth Shuttle and a Minbari Flyer. So guess that works out to four fighters?

Though I don't see where on the ship it could be....the bottom somewhere?

- All the quarters in B5 are like that. It's not unreasonable--they're not houses or apartments, they're more like unusually large quarters aboard a warship.

Yea, but does a high ranking officer with their own room on the USS Ronald Regan have their main door open into their bed room? Some how I doubt it.

- As we see in this very episode, people can drop in to visit him. What do you think the reaction of Sheridan would be if he popped in to have a chat with Garibaldi only to see empty booze bottles all over the place?

See again, this is stuff it would have been nice to see. You can drop so much stuff that just filled time...for a whole literal minute of screen time showing Garabaldi hiding bottles in his place or something like that.

- Not sure what you mean by a pod ship? As far as I know, all the Centauri ships taking part in these attacks are regular Centauri warships run by regular Centauri crews--there's no need to suborn the entire crew when you can just suborn the people giving the orders.

You have watched the whole show before, right? Well, we are only like a couple episodes from this but:

Spoiler: Pod Ships

Show

So the Drac in control of Centari Prime have Shadow bio remote control pods, like big balls. They can be programed? Controled? and used to operate a ship with no other crew. The pods are flying all the ''killer Centari ships''. It's not the normal Centari military in any way shape or form.

Londo will tell the lie that the regent went crazy, bought the pods on the black market, and had the pod ships attack everyone as he was crazy. It's not true...it's all the Drac.

[factotum]

I *have* watched the entire show before but I'd forgotten that detail, thanks. (Season 5 is overall quite forgettable, is my only excuse for that). OK, let's just assume that the Drakh didn't bother disabling the life support aboard the ships when they podded them up--after all, these ships are not specially built to be run this way, they're built to have Centauri crews aboard, and stripping out all the living quarters, life support etc. would simply be a waste of time.

[Darth Ultron]

I *have* watched the entire show before but I'd forgotten that detail, thanks. (Season 5 is overall quite forgettable, is my only excuse for that). OK, let's just assume that the Drakh didn't bother disabling the life support aboard the ships when they podded them up--after all, these ships are not specially built to be run this way, they're built to have Centauri crews aboard, and stripping out all the living quarters, life support etc. would simply be a waste of time.

Well, I'm talking more of just truing life support off. Assuming the pods even need life support, as if they are ''bio-machines'' they might not need it at all. But there are only like a couple pods per ship. So even if they do need life support, you don't have to crank out the full normal amount for a crew of a couple hundred. If you have a ''robot'' crew, you can turn off the life support and use the power elsewhere.

The real complaint is that Liner ''all most'' runs out of air....and then at the last second just luckily tags a passing ship and steals some air form it. Even without the Pods, it's still bad ''oh no'' writing...where I guess a couple of five year olds were like ''oh, no Liner is going to die!"...and everyone else knew that was not going to happen.

[factotum]

The real complaint is that Liner ''all most'' runs out of air....and then at the last second just luckily tags a passing ship and steals some air form it.

Well, yeah, I mentioned in my own review how ridiculous that is. The hulls on B5 warships are probably a metre thick or more, drilling through that to get air isn't a trivial exercise.

[Algeh]

This week, we'll be discussing:

• And All My Dreams, Torn Asunder
• Movements of Fire and Shadow
• The Fall of Centauri Prime

Feel free to discuss anything from the Babylon 5 series without using spoiler tags if you so choose. Please continue to use spoiler tags for things unrelated to Babylon 5 as you would in any other media thread.

Also, is there interest in moving on to the rest of the TV movies and Crusade after we finish Season 5? Or should we end with Sleeping in Light?

[Darth Ultron]

And All My Dreams, Torn Asunder

Another episode...

Things that don't Make Sense

*So suddenly Sheridan and Deleen have a Minbari ''slide'' bed, when like an epsiode they had a normal Earth bed. Or do they switch beds each week or something?

*Wonder why the Drac did not just blow away some Centari ships to keep up the ruse...it's not like they would have cared about the loss of life.

*It is a wonder again, why is there no Earth ambassador. Sheridan is not a member of Earthforce anymore, so he can't represent Earth..plus you can't be president and ambassador at the same time. But then, it is a wonder why is not Captain Lockey there to represent Earth?

*So the Centari Empire will not acknowledge the Blockade? Um, what good will that even do? If the whole Alliance, and that is just about everyone in Known Space, where are the Centari ships even going to go? Even if they ''run'' the blockade...no one will deal with them, right?

*Can you really tell if a person is drunk by if they can catch? Some people just can't catch period.

*So Garabaldi went to the meeting in the morning, alert and sober....then ran home and got drunk at lunch?

*Then drank a bunch of coffee and Red Bull and drugs to ''act'' not drunk for his Very Important Meeting. And then while waiting for the Very Important Call...got drunk yet again(or still?)

*So Sheridin off hand says Deleen is talking to the Minbari....but, why don't the Manbari send some warships to the blockade? That is how mutual defense works...right?

*And again...where is Earth?

*And again, it's a bit odd Garabaldi has no staff...even just a couple people.

*So the Centari switch from sending one warship with a transport to sending a fleet in like seconds.

*I guess the Centari blockade running warships are real ships with real Centari crews and not pods....right?

*So..other then the meta reason...why did not Sheridan put the White Stars on the Centari border? Remember when he sent ALL the white stars to the Enfeeli homeworld to stop some raiders? To bad he did not do something similar.

*And suddenly at the end of the episode...Sheridan has a normal Earth bed. Do they have two beds? Two bed rooms?

*Move Vir? Is not the Ambassador Sector the most secure spot on the station?

*And even if you did move Vir...you'd do that with Security...or even better a Ranger....because that is what they are both specifically for...


Final-C, it's a much better episode over a lot of the season so far...but still the Interstellar War feels way to forced and rushed. Kind of like it ''must'' happen so Centri Prime ''will'' get attacked. Still it does have some nice Londo and G'kar moments...even a nice G'kar and Deleen moment.

[factotum]

FYI, won't be able to do my summaries this week--got a nasty eye inflammation, which makes sitting down and watching three hours of TV and then summarising difficult. I can bear looking at a screen long enough to post a bit on the forums, but that's about it.

*Wonder why the Drac did not just blow away some Centari ships to keep up the ruse...it's not like they would have cared about the loss of life.

*So Garabaldi went to the meeting in the morning, alert and sober....then ran home and got drunk at lunch?
*Then drank a bunch of coffee and Red Bull and drugs to ''act'' not drunk for his Very Important Meeting. And then while waiting for the Very Important Call...got drunk yet again(or still?)

*And suddenly at the end of the episode...Sheridan has a normal Earth bed. Do they have two beds? Two bed rooms?

- The whole point of this is to split the Alliance apart, and ideally see the Centauri get a bit of a reprisal for what they did to the Shadow fleet. So, blowing up Centauri ships would be the opposite of useful, because it would direct attention away from the Centauri!

- My brother is an alcoholic. Believe me, this is entirely par for the course--the drinking is a compulsion, you don't really have any control over when it comes on.

- Why not? They would originally have had Sheridan's quarters and Delenn's quarters, so it's entirely possible they've kept that up now. There's probably some Minbari tradition that requires them to have available separate sleeping arrangements until they're officially wed, or something.

[Thufir]

*So suddenly Sheridan and Deleen have a Minbari ''slide'' bed, when like an epsiode they had a normal Earth bed. Or do they switch beds each week or something?

*And suddenly at the end of the episode...Sheridan has a normal Earth bed. Do they have two beds? Two bed rooms?

They alternate between each other's quarters. They addressed this at the beginning of season 5, there's no room for Sheridan's stuff in Delenn's quarters or

*So..other then the meta reason...why did not Sheridan put the White Stars on the Centauri border? Remember when he sent ALL the white stars to the Enfeeli homeworld to stop some raiders? To bad he did not do something similar.

The Enfeeli homeworld is one planet. The Centauri control a lot of space, there's too much border for the White Stars to cover all of it at once.

[Darth Ultron]

Movements of Fire and Shadow

Episode 17 Season 5

-So this might be the first time we see 'space mines'

-So the destroyer class White stars are the ships from A Call to Arms and Crusade with the Wave Motion Guns, right?


Things that don't Make Sense

*Lockey says the Centari are at war with everyone...well everyone except Earth and the Minbari, right? Especially Earth as they are somehow just forgotten about in season 5.

*So the Deceleration of Principles says that when at war the Alliance members must return bodies of the dead killed in battle. And the Centari, that have left the Alliance, still honor this? Why? Are not the Centari going evil and rogue?

*Guess the Drac subcontract out some evil doings to yet another unknown Grey-like alien race.

*So the Centari have two separate fleets? The defensive ships, that are maned by real Centari, and the offensive ships maned by the pods. But.....the Centari are fighting the war, right? So would they not notice that they are...well...not fighting the war? Like when Centari general Bob hears about how the Centari attacked and blew up Pothole Six...well they knew the Centari fleet did not do it. Or are the Centari really obsessed with the idea that there is a Secret Fleet of Centari Rogue Ships, controlled by a mysterious third party?

*So for the whole show fighting in hyperspace was ''too volatile'', but now it's OK? Well, guess it was an emergency, right?

*So yet again a telepath is absolutely critical in getting much needed information. Yet Earth, and the Alliance is all like ''oh we can never use telepaths like that...but they do.

*So there is no indication that once Sheridan figures out the Evil Plot to have everyone attack the Centari that he ever tries to call the Centari and warn them about the attack. But why not? Or is the Evil Attack Fleet jamming all of known space?

*So G'Kar throws up and Guard Curly lets Londo out of the cell why?

*And ok, Guard Curly lets Londo out of the cell and then just just like ''ok-day, just wander away Londo''.

And Londo is only in the cell as he was staying with G'Kar...so why could he not just leave the cell by saying he did not want to be with G'Kar anymore?

*It is standard militarily tactics that for absolutely no reason what so ever, no matter the emergency, you never, ever, ever have least then at least 20% of your armed forces guarding your home. So how does the Regent sent all the ships away and no one notices?

*Same way no one notices the Centari Defense Grid is flashing ''off''. Specifically during a time of war this system would be monitored.

*So guess the Regent did like 25 other things that he just did not mention other then just sending the ships away and turing off the defense grid. The Centari have listing posts/probes/warning beacons and such all over their system and in hyperspace, right? Like the Centari would detect and notice a huge armada of warships in their space. Or is the Evil Attack Fleet cloaked or in stealth mode or something? Or is it all a set up by the Drac?

*Everyone sure seems to jump to ''lets murderhobo and kill all the innocent civilians on Centari Prime!'' really fast. Or is this all set up by the Drac?




Final C, well this epsiode tried to be good...but mostly falls flat. We went from nothing, to mysterious raids, to war, to obliterate the homeworld way, way, way, way too fast.

[factotum]

-So the destroyer class White stars are the ships from A Call to Arms and Crusade with the Wave Motion Guns, right?

*So the Deceleration of Principles says that when at war the Alliance members must return bodies of the dead killed in battle. And the Centari, that have left the Alliance, still honor this? Why? Are not the Centari going evil and rogue?

*Guess the Drac subcontract out some evil doings to yet another unknown Grey-like alien race.

*It is standard militarily tactics that for absolutely no reason what so ever, no matter the emergency, you never, ever, ever have least then at least 20% of your armed forces guarding your home. So how does the Regent sent all the ships away and no one notices?

- Yes, those would be the Victory-class ships we see in Crusade and A Call to Arms.

- For the same reason that most combatants in a real war will follow the precepts of the Geneva Conventions--because if you break the rules, your enemies have every excuse to do so as well.

- From memory, I think those are actually supposed to be the Drakh. Their first appearance was so manifestly awful that JMS had them redesigned for this series.

- This is the whole point of the Centauri government, and one of the reasons the Drakh chose them as their target--the entire thing is run by one person, and everyone is used to that person giving odd orders (especially after Cartagia). They couldn't do the same thing with the Minbari (they'd have to suborn all nine members of the Grey Council, and secretly boarding their war cruiser would be realistically impossible), and Earth and Narn are too beat up after the various wars--not to mention that Earth was actually on the Shadow side during the war, and unlike the Centauri, they never betrayed them.