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2018-05-12, 07:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2015
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- Mid-Rohan
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Re: So what is a sandbox game anyway?
The fact that the DM decides the outcome of every action makes a choice illusory IF and ONLY IF the DM has decided to provide the players with the same outcome regardless of their choice.
Just because the game is ficticious doesn't mean that elements of the game aren't real.
If the DM provides a set of choices for the players and the selection between these choices causes the DM to move the story along a path unique to that choice (and distinct from the consequences of the alternative choices), then the choice itself was real no matter how fictitious the scenario was.
Do not conflate an illusory scenario with an illusory choice. They are mutually exclusive properties.
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2018-05-12, 11:12 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2015
Re: So what is a sandbox game anyway?
The point is: whatever happens is what the DM says happens. The players have no power, or ability to make any choice.
Sure everyone gets so caught up on the ''if the DM just follows their planned path, and no matter what the players do, that planned path happens'' is Badwrongfun! And endlessly complains. But, it's no different from the careless, clueless DM that simply does things on a whim. Or any other case where the DM decides what happens. And at the extreme the clueless DM can just let the players have control of the game and alter the game reality to whatever the players want: but, of course, this is not making choices...this is altering game reality.
A crafty DM can make it ''look and feel'' to the players that their actions matter...but they don't. After all, the DM will always make the final call. I lot like Railroading, it all depends on the players believing the illusion.
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2018-05-12, 11:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2015
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- Mid-Rohan
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Re: So what is a sandbox game anyway?
You have demonstrated an inability to argue honestly and this is the perfect example of it.
Players have power to choose when the DM gives them the power to choose, which is exactly the definition of sandbox.
Bear in mind that the players granted the DM power over the game when they allowed the DM to run the game for them. They can revoke that allowance by leaving the game at any time.
So clearly, the DM doesn't actually have any power, just the illusion of control.
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2018-05-13, 12:03 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2015
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2018-05-13, 12:24 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2012
Re: So what is a sandbox game anyway?
Players have exactly as much power in a D&D game as they do in a S&M dungeon: the safe word.
That threat of leaving entirely is the only leverage they have. I wouldn't say that's a lot of power. It's a small bargaining tool, to try and get an experience you want while still staying in the game.
On a few occasions, I have had to actually leave a game, for putting up with some things that were too ridiculous. Even after wielding that "power" I had, every experience leading up to it wasn't pleasant, and I still do not look back fondly on the events that unfolded. When things get to that point and you just have to bail, I think it's a bad experience for everyone involved.
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2018-05-13, 01:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2015
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- Berlin
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Re: So what is a sandbox game anyway?
@Illusion:
I think that is very dependent on what one personally perceives as an illusion. For example, when the gm prepares and populates the whole game world, what's decided on that level will have a huge influence on the choices the players can make in the actual game. This will also probably set the mark for what could be considered to be "meaningful choices". For example, including a "rebellious" CG city in an otherwise LE Empire will set the tone for what could develop, while having a good feeling for what scope of endeavor it would take to make that city actually succeed at seceding, whiteout pre-planning how that should be done, will affect what is "meaningful".
So, it could be argued that the more detailed the sites/NPC that are used as building blocks for the sandbox are, the more the whole thing starts to turn into a module.
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2018-05-13, 02:29 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2013
Re: So what is a sandbox game anyway?
I do not know how to discuss it in depth in a PG manner so I will be brief:
The threat to leave is entirely unilateral. You are not tied down and thus you can just walk out regardless of the DM's opinion on the matter. The invocation of a safeword is only unilateral if the dom can be trusted to honor the safeword regardless of their opinion on the matter. In other words, it is a power that only exists because the dom granted that power to the sub by the dom deciding to honor the safeword no matter what. Of course it is for this reason that subs look for doms they can trust to honor the safeword. Obviously the DM betraying the players is nowhere near as heinous.
So the safeword, on a mechanical level looking at power, is more akin to player agency (a power given to the players by the DM and made real by the DM deciding to make it real) than it is akin to the threat to leave (a completely unilateral power unless the DM is locking you inside the room or otherwise being necessary for your exit).Last edited by OldTrees1; 2018-05-13 at 02:35 AM.
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2018-05-13, 03:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2015
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- Berlin
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Re: So what is a sandbox game anyway?
@OldTrees1:
In short, that's more or less the "standard problem" we´re facing in several systems: The burden of being at once neutral judge/referee, at the same time being the antagonist.
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2018-05-13, 04:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2015
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- Mid-Rohan
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2018-05-13, 04:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2015
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- Berlin
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2018-05-13, 04:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2015
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- Mid-Rohan
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Re: So what is a sandbox game anyway?
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2018-05-13, 05:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2015
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- Berlin
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2018-05-13, 07:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2015
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- Mid-Rohan
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2018-05-13, 08:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2016
- Location
- The Lakes
Re: So what is a sandbox game anyway?
Someone trying to claim that the "GM - other players" relationship is the same as a "dom - sub" relationship...
...tells us everyone we need to know about their broken view of gaming.Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2018-05-13 at 08:14 AM.
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2018-05-13, 08:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
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2018-05-13, 08:50 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2016
- Location
- The Lakes
Re: So what is a sandbox game anyway?
Anyone else find it odd that we've had yet another account suddenly pop-up in the general RP forum to make arrogant, denigrating, statements about "sandbox games" while promoting a view of GMing that's based on power and abuse?
Seems like there's a pattern developing here.Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2018-05-13 at 08:51 AM.
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2018-05-13, 09:18 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2008
Re: So what is a sandbox game anyway?
You are seriously overestimating the power of a GM. Without player co-operation they are nothing.
DM: The goblin deals 23 points of damage. You're dead.
Player: No they don't. We're level one, we are not facing goblins capable of dealing that much damage. It dealt 5, leaving me aliv-
DM: No, I said you were dead, you cannot act.
Players: Well, we're not going to play in a game where goblins who can deal 23 damage at level 1
Standstill. The DM doesn't have any power to break this. And its probably easier for a group to find a new DM than it is for a DM to find a new group, they are likely in a stronger position bargainingwise. Often in a group of 4 players, one of them could become a DM. They can cut the DM out of the picture and continue playing with little problem, and option the DM doesn't have."It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
You'll never get out of life alive,
So please kill yourself and save this land,
And your last mission is to spread my command,"
Slightly adapted quote from X-Fusion, Please Kill Yourself
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2018-05-13, 09:20 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2013
Re: So what is a sandbox game anyway?
Huh? I was not talking about a problem? I was talking about how the DM can grant the Players non illusionary power just like the Players granted the DM non illusionary power. Aka a basic understanding of one of the primitive concepts that allow someone to understand what a sandbox is.
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the analogy Windstruck and I were using to discuss/debate the various power exchanges involved in RPGs including the power exchange (power exchange =/= "power and abuse") that is the DM creating a meaningful choice rather than the illusion of a meaningful choice. Rather than try to correct some of you background assumptions, let me translate:
In chronological order
Windscar: The Players only have the power to leave. All other actions happen after the players have granted the DM control over the game. So while the Players get choices, the DM is technically in a position where they have the power to decide what happens. (Sidenote: This was a descriptive statement not a judgement/advocating statement)
OldTrees: That is initially true, but the DM can decide to give the players a choice and decide to respect their decision. As a result the DM is giving the players control over the outcome of that choice.
...
Of course you, Max Killjoy, understand the consequences and benefits that arise from this as evidenced by your comments in other threads. So I am not too worried if you don't zoom in far enough it as the various power exchanges rather than seeing it on the high level as player agency.Last edited by OldTrees1; 2018-05-13 at 09:46 AM.
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2018-05-13, 10:00 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2012
Re: So what is a sandbox game anyway?
aaaah, right. You totally got me. I'm just another sock puppet. My ruse didn't work.
I guess it wasn't believable enough that I suddenly made this account back in 2012, and posted so much in other games and topics that it got the title "titan in the playground"
Well played, detective. Next time, I might try using a slightly different stance, or only posting in riddles.
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2018-05-13, 10:08 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2012
Re: So what is a sandbox game anyway?
A GM does not have absolute power to decide anything they want and I am not shy about pointing out when a GM is doing a thing that breaks the rules and I expect them to stop doing the thing that's breaking the rules.
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2018-05-13, 01:58 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2014
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2018-05-13, 02:21 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2016
- Location
- The Lakes
Re: So what is a sandbox game anyway?
I'd say it's wrong to view / approach it as a matter of power and dominance in the first place.
All human relationships based on power are, IMO, halfway to toxic just by being about power.
E: what makes me suspicious is that every time several people give up on DU's nonsense, another poster "just happens" to enter the thread with exactly the same insulting, dismissive attitude, and exactly the same view of total DM dominance and power. The combination of timing and similarity is... quite the coincidence. Some old saying about a duck...Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2018-05-13 at 02:34 PM.
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2018-05-13, 02:21 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2009
Re: So what is a sadbox game anyway?
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2018-05-13, 02:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2015
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- Mid-Rohan
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Re: So what is a sandbox game anyway?
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2018-05-13, 02:29 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2006
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- NYC
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Re: So what is a sandbox game anyway?
I want you to PEACH me as hard as you can.
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2018-05-13, 04:15 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2013
Re: So what is a sandbox game anyway?
I can see the faulty communication just got worse. Any objections you have to the field of game theory are better pursued separate from your views about relationships. If that sentence seemed like a non sequitur, then consider how your statements appear.
So, starting again, trying to give you the context you need to understand the dialogue you butted into:
- In a game with a DM, the DM presents the PCs with a choice.
- (reserved for later)
- The Players have their PCs make a choice.
- The DM then decides what will happen.
In step 4 the DM has the capability to exercise their ability to decide what will happen in a manner that negates the relevance of steps 1 and 3 by deciding what will happen without regard for the choice the PCs made.
Do you agree that the above capability does exist even if we both frequently criticize it? (congrats you understand the first post)
Now watch as the DM does 1 extra thing and the consequences thereof:
- In a game with a DM, the DM presents the PCs with a choice.
- The DM decides to have the PC's choice determine what will happen no matter what.
- The Players have their PCs make a choice.
- The DM then enacts what the PC's choice determined will happen.
Can you see how the addition of step 2 changed the nature of step 4? If step 2 exists then the DM does not have the capability to negate steps 1 and 3 because the DM intentionally sacrificed that capability in order to make the choice in 1 & 3 a meaningful choice.
Do you agree that such meaningful choices exist and are not illusions? (congrats you understand the second post)
Edit:
After this post Windstruck made a 3rd post that repeated the content of the 1st post. Namely that prima facie, the DM is the final arbiter of what happens.
Did that help clear things up for you about the dialogue to jumped into? It was not about calling DMs Doms or about advocating or approaching either as being about power/abuse. Rather it is taking the lessons of game theory and applying them rigorously to see the primitive components of the multiple person interaction that leads to the difference between the illusion of choice vs the reality of choice in a discussion about whether choices can be real (spoiler: they can).Last edited by OldTrees1; 2018-05-13 at 11:03 PM.
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2018-05-13, 07:44 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2011
Re: So what is a sandbox game anyway?
Eh, no. The Banker doesn't determine how much money I owe for landing on Park Place, the rules do.
I've seen players - individually or collectively - completely override bad GMs. I've seen players kick bad GMs out, and elect someone else to continue the campaign. I haven't seen more than two GMs get beaten up in the parking lot for this kind of thing.
GMs have no more power than they are given. Which, at my tables, is generally petty close to "follow the rules or GTFO".
That's nice. I'll let you know if I decide to leverage that city in my creation of an undead army atop the horrible tomb, or in befriending the Dragon that kidnapped and threatened to eat the princess.
These elements only shape the narrative to the extent that the PCs interact with them. Which, in a proper sandbox, should almost always have the option to be "not at all".
For me, the GM either has to have established trust, or explain themselves.Last edited by Quertus; 2018-05-13 at 07:44 PM.
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2018-05-13, 08:31 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2015
Re: So what is a sandbox game anyway?
Right...
Step one: the players give the DM all the power.
Step two: the DM has all the power.
Except in a complicated game like D&D with a lot of moving parts, you can't do that sort of thing after 1st level or so. It get really hard at say 5th level or so to say ''how much'' damage a single attack can do.
And this does not even touch on optimization...
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2018-05-13, 08:51 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2012
Re: So what is a sandbox game anyway?
I'm not even talking about adhering to the standard D&D rules, guys. I am talking about scenarios where there could be anything of the DM's choosing behind a door. Monsters, traps, treasure, a fair maiden. They can choose how to have their NPCs respond, short of diplomancer abuse. They can either let you buy that diamond to resurrect your friend, or perhaps some thief happened to steal the last one. What monsters you encounter on a journey, if they bother using a random encounter table, if they even bother throwing an encounter at you at all is all up to the DM.
Now, what if the DM was doing their best to be fair and make the most logical outcomes from some players' actions, but they still thought something was unfair, like events were being manipulated? This could arise from a number of factors they simply don't know.. because they simply aren't the all-knowing DM, or it could just be paranoia.
Now consider a DM that is pretty deadset on manipulating the party into taking a certain set of actions... and that party is totally oblivious to that manipulation, thinking it's the best sandbox ever?
As I said, it's the illusion of meaningful choice that makes a sandbox. Not that games don't exist, or players don't exist, or the concept of choices don't exist.
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2018-05-13, 09:29 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2010
Re: So what is a sandbox game anyway?
Why should it be an illusion? Couldn't it be a real choice? For example:
Normal sandbox : The DM designs a Dungeon in advance (or places a pre-written module on the map) with the note "In room F, there are two doors on the west wall. Behind the left door, there's a 10x10 room with an angry ogre with a big club who wants to smash some skulls. Behind the right door, there's a 10x10 room with an orc guarding a delicious pie." If the PCs open the left door, they face the ogre. If they open the right door, they have a chance at some orc pie. If they don't bother with either door and go somewhere else, it doesn't matter. The ogre will still be angry and the orc will probably eat the pie by himself.
Illusory sandbox: Same as the normal sandbox, but the ogre is behind the first door the PCs open--whether right or left--and the pie orc is behind the second one, because the DM wants them to face that ogre first (to really earn that pie) but wants it to look like the PCs "chose" it and just weren't "lucky" enough to skip straight to the pie orc on the first guess.
Railroad : Like the illusory sandbox, but if the PCs try to leave room F without opening one of the western doors, they'll find that the entrance to the room has magically locked behind them so they have to try another door to get out.