The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

[danielxcutter]

Only one natural attack? Eh, could be worse I guess. Shame they won't use Rapidstrike, though. Still, those are some nice abilities.

[javcs]

The Runehound's "Extended Reach" ability specifically says that it threatens a 10ft radius area.



I believe a +0 is in order here - it lacks opposable thumbs/hands or an equivalent manipulator, and cannot speak a regular language, both of which are major downsides. Also ... since it lacks eyes and relies on blindsight, it cannot distinguish color variations or read.

There's no obvious build path either, other than not a caster.

[ViperMagnum357]

Runehound: Medium quadruped with no hands/manipulators, and no eyes...hooraaay. Among the more mundane problems, besides no hands, is requiring you to get a permanent item with something like Arcane Eye; unless you dig up at-will telepathy somewhere and get a familiar that can read and write. Also keep in mind your impressive blindsight is (Su) not (Ex), and can thus be suppressed or otherwise rendered inoperable under certain conditions. The RAW on Psychic Scent is ambiguous enough to make an argument that any mental shielding effect is sufficient to block it, including the 1st level Protection From spells. Your extra reach is also restricted to bite attacks, which only becomes relevant if you take the Multi-Headed Creature template.

Now, onto the actual chassis: 5 RHD, and Aberration costs you 2 points of BAB, so not a good start. Net +14 abilities is a little under average for 4 RHD, let alone 5. Natural AC is also 1 weaker than par. Speed is 10 ft faster than average for a medium quadruped, but no alternate movement modes. Track as a bonus feat, DR 5/Silver is solid, Fast Healing 3 is good, And Vile Spew is an ability that actually scales appropriately, for both damage and DC with no cap. Unfortunately, it has the same cooldown as a True Dragon's breath weapon, without actually being a breath weapon, making it extremely difficult to optimize or build around. That said, it is still (Ex) Acid dealing 1d6 per HD in a 100 ft line, so definitely useful.

You have some serious issues to build around, being naturally blind with no hands, a poor natural attack routine, and one decent scaling attack that is very difficult to optimize. It has a bunch of bells and whistles to make up for the mediocre chassis, but not nearly enough to elevate it; this things loses BAB and does not match up to the physical abilities of other decent combat brutes, while -6 Int trashes any chance of parleying its perception and tracking abilities into a skill monkey build. Add in -2 Cha and only +2 Wis, and you will have a hard time justifying any caster levels at all. That leaves the old standbys for oddball critters with significant RHD: Initiator and Incarnum. Not sure this thing stacks up with a base race that just took the levels, though, so overall I am leaning towards LA -0, though only just, probably 1 RHD too much for +0. Feel free to convince me otherwise.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Offensively, runehounds have a 2d6 bite with 10 ft. reach, which is obviously great. Arguably, this ability lets it threaten a 10 ft. area even when not using its bite, like with a mouthpick weapon, but that's assuming a level of RAW-adherence I'm not sure is realistic.

I dunno about your DMs, but I'd say that since the reach is from the long neck, it makes sense to give them a long reach whenever using a head-mounted weapon.

The runehound definitely seems borderline. On one hand, it has a bunch of neat abilities, some of which are really useful. On the other hand, it has just enough weaknesses (five RHD, six Int, zero thumbs, etc) to make it really tough to actually use any of them well. It would almost definitely be a +0 if it could use the abundant breath weapon support (which I'd probably allow, but my DMing choices shouldn't affect things unless they're based on universal-seeming logic), but as is...it's borderline.
It's one of those things that could be reasonably effective at its initial level but that will have to pick up unrelated low-level tricks (and/or Tome of Battle class levels) since it can't get anything to support its core abilities, ultimately leading to it being levels behind everyone in exchange for some abilities that were long since obsolete. Not as bad as most examples (blindsight and fast healing are abilities that stay pretty relevant from levels 1 to 20), but still there.

[Celestia]

I think if it had one less RHD, might be persuaded to give it a +0, but as is, I can't give it anything other than a -0. It has some nifty things but comes with way too many downsides.

[Lapak]

You know, defensive abilities aren't usually worth much offensively, and I'm not usually a huge fan of melee lockdown builds on general principles, but this could be an unusually effective one if you actually play to its strengths.

With Fast Healing and DR and NA and - most critically - Flank Immunity, the Runehound suffers a lot less than most others would actually charging into the middle of an enemy formation. Once you're there, you use your 10 foot reach to prevent anyone around you from doing things you don't like. Pump Dex, pick up Combat Reflexes, splash Crusader to snag Thicket of Blades/add even more endurance/pick up useful maneuvers, toss in Mage Slayer to prevent defensive casting, you've got the shape of a very annoying lockdown build that can cover an unusually large portion of the enemy's line by being in the middle of it.

I don't object to +0 on this guy.

[Thurbane]

LA +0 from me. They get a lot of good stuff, but the 5 RHD and non-humanoid issues stop me from going any higher.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Good suite of defensive abilities, nice speed, terrible class skills, very potent in very narrow niche (tracking), and very potent in a rather wider niche (blindsight).

A runehound crusader or warblade 1 with 16 base Strength (28 total with a +2 belt) will attack at +13 for 2d6+13 damage, and have second-level maneuvers. A human crusader or warblade 6 with 16 base Strength (18 total) and a +1 greatsword will attack at +11/+6 for 2d6+7 damage, and they'll have third-level maneuvers. I think those attacks are reasonably well-matched. At higher levels, though, the extra attacks on a full attack are going to favour the human more.

An ogre warblade 2 with the same 16 base Strength (28 total) and Large +1 greatsword will attack at +14 for 3d6+14 damage, with the same maneuvers and the same reach, though it is a bit slower, with much lower Dexterity, slightly lower overall stats, even worse class skills, and no special abilities. On the other hand, the ogre has hands and eyes (both dark- and low-light vision, in fact) and can speak.


It's another one of those stupid "thumbs 'n speech versus weird magical tricks" decisions (between +0 and -0, I think). The right decision depends on the utility of tracking and scouting versus the utility of social and manipulating (i.e. trapfinding/disabling, crafting, pickpocketing) encounters. Generally, we might at least say that the runehound isn't all that versatile, so in tier 3, I guess it's fair to call it -0.

[Efrate]

Assuming it has all normal chakras incarnum gives it hands for manipulation. I think it also gets 9th level maneuvers at 20 hd I think? Which is nice. Late but decent. Sadly it can`t dip enough totemist to get arms and then go initiator and still gets ninths. I think it has enough potential to be a + 0. It's on the weaker side but playable nonetheless.

[zlefin]

I'm gonna go with -0, though I agree it's a close call.

Build-wise, it seems most suited to scout role; but it's -6 int is a big blow to using the skills found in that role. Classwise, it makes me think of a ranger, rogue, or scout; but that -6 leaves you with a lot fewer skill points; and that lack of hands and speech also interferes with a lot of the utility skills, even more of a problem than it already is. ranger just would work poorly as a class because of overlap or its feats not working right with the runehound.

[OgresAreCute]

I think I'll go with +0 for this one, even if making it work might be a bit janky.

[unseenmage]

Solid minus zero. Too many deficits to be called too good.
I vote -0.

[danielxcutter]

For the people who've voted -0: would you at least say this is one of the less sucky -0s we've done?

About the reach: Since the increased reach is caused from its long neck, and a mouthpick weapon is going to be held in its mouth... yeah, it sounds right for that to work with a mouthpick weapon as well.

[Zaq]

Five mediocre RHD and no thumbs is a damned hard sell. Especially since there's some restrictions on language (yeah, okay, Pearl of Speech and whatever, but still).

I think this is still a -0. It's better than the average -0, but I think you're too far behind the curve to really be on par with a PHB race (or other typical ECL 0 race) for most builds, at least once you take into account the challenges posted by being non-humanoid. The tricks it has are not completely shameful, but I think you're giving up too much to qualify as +0.

The skills, in particular, are painful. Not as bad as the critters with really rock-bottom intelligence, but if you want more than 8 skill points for your first 5 HD, you need to invest 10 PB points in a preracial 16 INT to get down to 10. That's pretty terrible. Not uniquely bad, but it really, really limits where you can go after your RHD.

[javcs]

I called it a +0, though what I should have said was that it is probably a technical +0, but I can't support playing it, and that I think it's probably not suitable for use as a PC.

Without its abilities, it would be a clear -0, but it does have those abilities, and we can't justify giving it a * for those abilities.

Though, it might actually merit a * on the basis of the physical limitations and the blindness.

Might be neat as a mount, though.
Or if you're at the point where you can snag (Su) abilities, it might be useful as a niche form to use.
I think there might be a PRC somewhere that lets you combine abilities from forms you can shift into ... might be in the Dragon Compendium.

[Celestia]

Might be neat as a mount, though.

I bet it would be funny to see a halfling riding one of these.

[ViperMagnum357]

For the people who've voted -0: would you at least say this is one of the less sucky -0s we've done?

About the reach: Since the increased reach is caused from its long neck, and a mouthpick weapon is going to be held in its mouth... yeah, it sounds right for that to work with a mouthpick weapon as well.

I clarified I would probably rate it LA +0 at 4 RHD, but the overall bonuses are too low and you are giving up too much as is. That fifth RHD costs you a second point of BAB and locks your base Fortitude and Reflex into +1 over your first five levels, while giving you a D8 and 2+Int skills at -6 starting Int to compliment your below average net abilities and natural AC. Adding that on top of the no hands and vision issues that must be addressed through expensive equipment or restructuring your build is too much to be LA +0.

Or if you're at the point where you can snag (Su) abilities, it might be useful as a niche form to use.
I think there might be a PRC somewhere that lets you combine abilities from forms you can shift into ... might be in the Dragon Compendium.

I think you are remembering the Master Transmogrifist PRC; which can steal a particular ability from a favored form whenever they change shape, such as shapeshifting into a Dragon while grabbing the Blindsight of a Runehound.

[Aniikinis]

I'm rating it as a +0 myself.

I've made a few runehound PCs before and, while I admit they were a bit janky and the limitations were a bit annoying at times, couldn't really find anything wrong with the mechanics themselves. It works as an okay scout and tracker, especially with a familiar or animal companion to aid with sight-based problems or markers, and while it does have the problems of language and tool-use, it's not too bad if you can get magic items, familiars, or hire people to get around them for you. Or just use party members and a form of sign language with your neck and head(if allowed).

The stats are okay and the penalty to Int hurts a lot with the versatility and viability of it, undoubtedly, but if you go, say barbarian or crusader you should be fine. It works great as a lockdown and also as a line breaker, being able to keep most enemies busy or take them out immediately while being punished very little for doing so.

[TiaC]

I think people are overselling a lack of hands. Collar of perpetual attendance will often work for 2k. Mighty Arms graft cost 1k and would give you a pair of arms. A high-level permanent Girallon's blessing would be under 15k. Yes, overcoming these obstacles is a problem at 6th level, but at higher levels it's easy and the Runehound's abilities are worth far more than the cost of offsetting its drawbacks.

[Lans]

I'm gonna go with +0. It works good enough as a ToB class

[Caelestion]

I think it's +0 as well. -0 should be reserved for things are clearly below-par, not merely sub-optimal.

[Celestia]

I think it's +0 as well. -0 should be reserved for things are clearly below-par, not merely sub-optimal.

That's not how it works, though. The point of -0 is to indicate creatures that don't hold up against more standard options, even if only barely. It's not exclusively reserved for the worst of the worst.

[Hish]

+0. It's difficult to play, but it gets a lot of nice things to offset that.

[Lapak]

That's not how it works, though. The point of -0 is to indicate creatures that don't hold up against more standard options, even if only barely. It's not exclusively reserved for the worst of the worst.

I think it does hold up. I think it's locked into relatively few roles, but within those roles I can see it functioning just fine.

[Covenant12]

Was very much on the fence between +0 and -0, some of the arguments here have swayed me.

Vote: +0. Fairly limited, but effective enough and has some cool toys.

[Celestia]

I think it does hold up. I think it's locked into relatively few roles, but within those roles I can see it functioning just fine.

It can't manipulate objects, can't talk, can't read, can only see 500 feet, can't see at all in an AMF, loses two BAB, and has -6 intelligence. To off set this, it gets underwhelming stat buffs, the ability to track really well, and a breath weapon that doesn't benefit from any breath weapon supplements. It would make a decent mount, but it is really not viable as a PC.

[Caelestion]

It's not exclusively reserved for the worst of the worst.

Fortunately for both of us, then, I said "clearly below-par", not "the worst of the worst".

[javcs]

It can't manipulate objects, can't talk, can't read, can only see 500 feet, can't see at all in an AMF, loses two BAB, and has -6 intelligence. To off set this, it gets underwhelming stat buffs, the ability to track really well, and a breath weapon that doesn't benefit from any breath weapon supplements. It would make a decent mount, but it is really not viable as a PC.

It's "breath weapon" is a 100ft ranged touch attack - which means it can carry attack riders, even if it doesn't get breath weapon support.


Here's the thing - my position is that it gets just enough stuff where it technically slides into the +0 range, largely by virtue of the fact that it gets too much to be called -0, since we can't set any of its abilities aside by calling them imbalanced or overly problemmatic and giving it a * for them, but I can't in good conscience support anyone playing one. Those abilities that it does have will pretty much always remain useful, even if they largely don't give you a decent build path.


Might actually be a +0* on account of its significant physical and communication limitations.
I don't think anyone should play one, and I wouldn't want to play one even if I were being paid to do so, but I think that it gets just a bit too much to get away with being a -0, even with its serious issues for being a PC.

[Remuko]

It can't manipulate objects, can't talk, can't read, can only see 500 feet, can't see at all in an AMF, loses two BAB, and has -6 intelligence. To off set this, it gets underwhelming stat buffs, the ability to track really well, and a breath weapon that doesn't benefit from any breath weapon supplements. It would make a decent mount, but it is really not viable as a PC.

have to say i agree with this. -0 from me.

[Mystic Muse]

-0 from me as well. I don't think the 1% of the time, if that, that you'd rather play this than a humanoid race justifies them being on-par with them.