Small things that break you suspension of disbelief or immersion

[Reddish Mage]

A good/bad example that comes to mind right away is the 3rd Hobbit movie's final battle where a ragtag militia of very old/young people somehow manage to hold the line in close melee for several minutes against a force of big muscled orcs that by all means should've just crushed them instantly.

I said aside from where ignoring size/weight differences was 1. an important "conceit" or 2 in a sci-fi/fantasy where fantastic stuff happens all the time. The Hobbit is an excellent example of both of those. This magic-filled fantasy story is about short stature dwarves and a hobbits taking on large orcs and giant creatures and winning.

Also, the example is irrelevant. Size-weight difference is violated when, say, Buffy Summers takes someone several times her weight and throws him around like a rag doll. It is completely plausible, and in fact happens in real life for physically smaller people to fight off bigger people.

[The Jack]

Ah the hobbit, where the orcs have been playing rugby all their lives and they're all wearing plate... how could they lose?

Tolkien's orcs were hobbit sized, it was fine.


Buffy had awesome slayer powers. She was good.

[Bohandas]

A good/bad example that comes to mind right away is the 3rd Hobbit movie's final battle where a ragtag militia of very old/young people somehow manage to hold the line in close melee for several minutes against a force of big muscled orcs that by all means should've just crushed them instantly.

Have you ever tried to swat a fly

Think about that, and now apply the principles discussed here:

Do I think a 120lb female could take out multiple 200lb male assailants, with all of them unarmed? Very unlikely, but give just her a weapon and things are very significantly evened.

[Rodin]

The series includes a scene where a girl scolds the protagonist for hanging outside of the tank, explicitly stating that she'd be obliterated if a shot hit her. The response was essentially "Eh. That rarely happens."

Given how often girls in that series let loose with the machine guns to vent frustration, it shouldn't be all that rare for somebody exposed to get hit, and there are several scenes that should have killed everyone in the tank, but that's just typical handwaving, not a "AT weapons can't kill peoples!" thing.

I generally prepared to forgive when the premise is inherently ludicrous to allow a series to happen. Girls und Panzer is an excuse to have cute girls having huge tank battles, and the "its a school sport" thing is there to keep the mood light and brush past the idea that in reality you would be killing people.

No, the one that really bugged me was Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha. In that series, magic is explicitly stated to be non-lethal. In the first season, that's just about believable - the fights generally take place out in the open, and it's only the girls themselves being hit by the giant energy beams. The secondary danger is even shown, with Fate getting knocked out over the ocean and Nanoha having to fly down and stop her from drowning.

...And then there's Strikers. Where same magic beams are used to blast holes in giant robots, punch holes in walls, and generally wreak destruction. The most ridiculous case is probably Quattro, who Nanoha shoots with a massive beam large enough to smash it's way halfway through the ship they're both on and practically vaporizes the room Quattro is standing in. And we're supposed to believe that it's "non-lethal". Riiiiiiiiiggghhht.

[Kitten Champion]

...And then there's Strikers. Where same magic beams are used to blast holes in giant robots, punch holes in walls, and generally wreak destruction. The most ridiculous case is probably Quattro, who Nanoha shoots with a massive beam large enough to smash it's way halfway through the ship they're both on and practically vaporizes the room Quattro is standing in. And we're supposed to believe that it's "non-lethal". Riiiiiiiiiggghhht.

Obviously that beam-resistant coating was effective.

[Lethologica]

The threshold for realistic lethality is so low compared to what's shown in any show...with Nanoha I'm pretty comfortable assuming the beams can destroy things but not kill people for magical reasons.

[Sholos]

I generally prepared to forgive when the premise is inherently ludicrous to allow a series to happen. Girls und Panzer is an excuse to have cute girls having huge tank battles, and the "its a school sport" thing is there to keep the mood light and brush past the idea that in reality you would be killing people.

No, the one that really bugged me was Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha. In that series, magic is explicitly stated to be non-lethal. In the first season, that's just about believable - the fights generally take place out in the open, and it's only the girls themselves being hit by the giant energy beams. The secondary danger is even shown, with Fate getting knocked out over the ocean and Nanoha having to fly down and stop her from drowning.

...And then there's Strikers. Where same magic beams are used to blast holes in giant robots, punch holes in walls, and generally wreak destruction. The most ridiculous case is probably Quattro, who Nanoha shoots with a massive beam large enough to smash it's way halfway through the ship they're both on and practically vaporizes the room Quattro is standing in. And we're supposed to believe that it's "non-lethal". Riiiiiiiiiggghhht.

Destruction of non-living material can hardly be described as "lethal". Pretty simple to just assume the forces involved don't act harmfully on living things.

[GloatingSwine]

The threshold for realistic lethality is so low compared to what's shown in any show...with Nanoha I'm pretty comfortable assuming the beams can destroy things but not kill people for magical reasons.

The in-universe explanation is that Nanoha has extremely fine control of her magic and she can make sure that it has non-lethal effects no matter how much property destruction it causes.

[Reddish Mage]

May I note this is a case of "magic" that followed the rules that were laid down in universe.

Sigh.... time to check that box again: Yet another is upset that magic isn't following the way magic is supposed to work. We're starting to get enough indigent posters who know how magic really works to form a coven.

[2D8HP]

36% of monthly household gross income is a crazy huge percentage to go towards a mortgage (especially before including taxes and insurance).

My current mortgage (including taxes and insurance) is ~12.5% of my monthly household gross income. More than tripling that boggles my mind.

Um...

For most of my adult life well over 50% of my income went towards rent, at 36% ofincome that mortgage sounds cheap to me, real cheap, though from Forums I understand that "There Be Dragons", U.S.A. has very different housing prices than here.

Davy, Davy Crockett, King of the Wild Frontier! Anyone besides me remember watching that show? Granted, it was distant reruns on The Magical World of Disney, but it counts!

Yes, it was that, Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom, The Muppet Show, and Sha-Na-Named on Sundays.

Given that I started the response with myth and legend I figured I'd end it the same way.

Personally I have crushed, maimed and decapitated countless bears with just my teeth. Just, you know, for the record. Of course they were gummy bears. What else would they be?

- M

Since (IIRC) you live beyond the Great Ice Wall I'm now inclined to believe that you are in-fact The Night King

[deuterio12]

Have you ever tried to swat a fly

We're not talking about swatting flies, we're talking of a fly completely blocking your path. We're talking about a professional Rugby player getting stopped in his tracks just because there was one fly in front of him.

At least dwarves have the excuse of being living stone or something and thus a lot more dense/hard/heavy than regular humies even if their volume is smaller (notice how their leader could headbutt helmeted orcs just fine after losing his own helmet, dwarf bones/skin are pretty strong).

...And then there's Strikers. Where same magic beams are used to blast holes in giant robots, punch holes in walls, and generally wreak destruction. The most ridiculous case is probably Quattro, who Nanoha shoots with a massive beam large enough to smash it's way halfway through the ship they're both on and practically vaporizes the room Quattro is standing in. And we're supposed to believe that it's "non-lethal". Riiiiiiiiiggghhht.

That's just pretty standard shonen physics where non-organic non-living things are just a lot more fragile.

For example if you throw a human body against a solid stone wall, the wall shatters but the human gets up with just a few bruises. Because of course solid rock if more fragile than flesh and bones and skin.

[Rodin]

That's just pretty standard shonen physics where non-organic non-living things are just a lot more fragile.

For example if you throw a human body against a solid stone wall, the wall shatters but the human gets up with just a few bruises. Because of course solid rock if more fragile than flesh and bones and skin.

My irritation for that sort of thing varies based on series. If that happens in DBZ or another show where they're explicitly using Ki energy to make themselves stronger (say...Hunter x Hunter), then getting chucked through a brick wall and coming out unharmed is a perfectly normal thing to happen.

Where I do get bugged by it is in universes where they are NOT doing that, like Naruto. Yes, there's chakra, but chakra explicitly doesn't make you any tougher physically. If you get hit by a kunai while channeling chakra, it will do exactly the same amount of damage as if you weren't. You have to actively use the chakra to do something that protects you.

Perfect example: Kakashi vs. Kakuzu. Kakuzu is really hard to injure because he uses Earth techniques to harden his body and allow him to tank powerful hits. Yet in the same battle, Kakashi is repeatedly punted THROUGH giant trees with no indication that he's using something similar to protect himself. He just gets gets up a little bruised and carries on. So why is Kakuzu bothering?

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There's also the "shrapnel? What shrapnel?" effect, which is a large part of what bugs me about the Nanoha example. If we're saying the shot just smashes through non-organic surfaces and deals just enough damage to organics to knock them out, in that case Quattro should be getting hit by a blizzard of metal shrapnel, not to mention the non-magical shockwave generated by that much force being applied to a confined area. She would be paste on the far wall, magic or not.

[deuterio12]

Perfect example: Kakashi vs. Kakuzu. Kakuzu is really hard to injure because he uses Earth techniques to harden his body and allow him to tank powerful hits. Yet in the same battle, Kakashi is repeatedly punted THROUGH giant trees with no indication that he's using something similar to protect himself. He just gets gets up a little bruised and carries on. So why is Kakuzu bothering?

Heh, you may as well ask the same about DBZ characters. If smashing them against a mountain didn't even faze them the first time, why do they keep repeating it over and over?

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There's also the "shrapnel? What shrapnel?" effect, which is a large part of what bugs me about the Nanoha example. If we're saying the shot just smashes through non-organic surfaces and deals just enough damage to organics to knock them out, in that case Quattro should be getting hit by a blizzard of metal shrapnel, not to mention the non-magical shockwave generated by that much force being applied to a confined area. She would be paste on the far wall, magic or not.

Directly related, when somebody uses regular human bodies as shields, when even basic guns can easily punch hole through multiple people, let alone something heavier like a machine gun.

Shockwave and radiated heat are often just plain ignored in fiction, like in gundam many times a beam saber will slash open a cockpit but the pilot inside is left completely unharmed, which should be plain impossible considering that beam sabers are super heated plasma so if it was close enough to tear the cockpit open, it was close enough to seriously burn/cook the pilot inside from the radiated heat alone.

Yet another directly related example, when normal unprotected people are standing really close to lava, barely touching it, when by all means their hair should already be burning a lot earlier.

[Rodin]

Heh, you may as well ask the same about DBZ characters. If smashing them against a mountain didn't even faze them the first time, why do they keep repeating it over and over?

I guess at least there the real damage is being done by the super-powered punch to the face, rather than the actual impact. What amuses me more is when someone picks up the mountain and throws it at their opponent. They're tough enough to tank a ki blast with their body, I don't think a hunk of earth is going to faze them. Some shows did at least lampshade this, with Ulquiorra (from Bleach) sarcastically asking why he should be concerned about a big rock Ichigo throws at him.

The other one from DBZ that always got me is the weird reaction people had to explosions. They show the massive explosion that vaporized a mountain, and all the characters staring at it in shock. This made sense in the original Dragonball and right at the beginning of DBZ, because that was impressive...at the time. By the time Vegeta shows up, we're at "can vaporize a planet with energy to spare" level. By the Frieza saga, that level is the "ante up" level that you need to even begin to compete. Frieza's second form is around 50x more powerful than that, and the power levels just go up from there. So why is anyone surprised by a beam attack that can level a mountain? Or, as Abridged Vegeta put it:

"I'm not impressed! I can do that too!!!"

[Bohandas]

Yet another directly related example, when normal unprotected people are standing really close to lava, barely touching it, when by all means their hair should already be burning a lot earlier.

I call BS on that. I've seen plenty of pictures and videos from Hawaii of people walking within a few feet of red hot lava, , poking it with sticks, and even shoveling it around

[Frozen_Feet]

Heh, you may as well ask the same about DBZ characters. If smashing them against a mountain didn't even faze them the first time, why do they keep repeating it over and over?

It all works out when you remember Ki is secretly hitpoints and you'll eventually get them to zero if you just keep pressing the Attack button.

More seriously, and explicit in some series such as Bleach, the durability of these characters is a reflection of their state of willpower. When their will is strong, they can block nukes to the face, when it's weak, a punch to the gut makes them topple over.

This makes these series absolutely awfull about displaying consistent levels of force or durability. The apparent physical effect is secondary to what's happening on the psychological level.

[Fyraltari]

I call BS on that. I've seen plenty of pictures and videos from Hawaii of people walking within a few feet of red hot lava, , poking it with sticks, and even shoveling it around

I'm guessing that lava has had some time to cool down. It's not like they are physically inside a volcano as is often the case in fiction.

[Rodin]

It all works out when you remember Ki is secretly hitpoints and you'll eventually get them to zero if you just keep pressing the Attack button.

More seriously, and explicit in some series such as Bleach, the durability of these characters is a reflection of their state of willpower. When their will is strong, they can block nukes to the face, when it's weak, a punch to the gut makes them topple over.

This makes these series absolutely awfull about displaying consistent levels of force or durability. The apparent physical effect is secondary to what's happening on the psychological level.

Reminds me of all the complaints about Hisagi's backstab crit against Tousen. Completely ignoring that one person's sword can become a lot sharper when they're determined and your body becomes a lot weaker if you aren't focusing. I wouldn't care, but both of those are consistent mechanics throughout the entire series and Tousen being out of character and dropping his guard is the entire point of that scene.

[deuterio12]

I guess at least there the real damage is being done by the super-powered punch to the face, rather than the actual impact. What amuses me more is when someone picks up the mountain and throws it at their opponent. They're tough enough to tank a ki blast with their body, I don't think a hunk of earth is going to faze them. Some shows did at least lampshade this, with Ulquiorra (from Bleach) sarcastically asking why he should be concerned about a big rock Ichigo throws at him.

The other one from DBZ that always got me is the weird reaction people had to explosions. They show the massive explosion that vaporized a mountain, and all the characters staring at it in shock. This made sense in the original Dragonball and right at the beginning of DBZ, because that was impressive...at the time. By the time Vegeta shows up, we're at "can vaporize a planet with energy to spare" level. By the Frieza saga, that level is the "ante up" level that you need to even begin to compete. Frieza's second form is around 50x more powerful than that, and the power levels just go up from there. So why is anyone surprised by a beam attack that can level a mountain? Or, as Abridged Vegeta put it:

"I'm not impressed! I can do that too!!!"

True that, although by the Cell arc they at least take some care to aim high enough with their strongest attacks so that if they miss it they don't accidentally blow up the Earth.

I'm guseesing that lava has had some time to cool down. It's not like their physically inside a volcano as is often the case in fiction.

Indeed, if nothing else the color red is a dead giveaway since it's in the lower level of the enery spectrum. What you really have to worry about is orange/yellow/white lava.

Remember that usually lava takes days to completely cooldown when out in the open, and due to thermodynamics it will cool down slower as its temperature drops, so there will be a significant period at the end where you can even shovel it.

But when it's inside an active volcano or just coming out of it as it's often the case in media, yeah human hair will catch fire just by approaching.

Seriously if simple shovels were enough to stop a lava erutption, then volcanos would be much less of a threat (at least the ones that spew liquid lava instead of those who explode in a bunch of rocks and burning ash).

[Lemmy]

Sounds like a good rule. They should make a rule for modern boxing that if you break any of your opponent's bones, they injured party automatically wins.

That's... One of the worst ideas I've ever heard. Unless you really want a guy with severe osteoporosis being hailed as the best boxer in the world.

For one... There's no way to know for sure what attack will break a bone. Sometimes, just getting hit in a bad angle is enough to break a bone. People don't come with inherent bone-hardness analyzers and accurate punch-force-measurer. All that would do is make the competitors intentionally under-perform (and still have no guarantee it'll work, unless they are just lightly slapping each other). And generally speaking, sports are meant to see who is the best, with as few restrictions as possible.

Second... You're the first and main responsible for your own safety and health. Everyone knows the risks involved in combat sports. If they still participate, it's because they believe they can take it. It's not your opponent's responsibility to ensure your health and safety (beyond following the rules of the sport and local laws, of course).

Third... Broken bones aren't the biggest problem with boxe. The real danger lies in concussions, which are caused by your brain sloshing and squishing inside your skull due to impact. Your bones could be as hard as Wolverine and that would still not help protecting you against concussions.

Last, but definitely not least... It actually creates an incentive to get hurt. You can bet at least some fighters would on occasion try to game the system and try to "block" or "parry" an attack in a way that is more likely to break a bone. What is a broken rib or finger when the prize money is more than enough to cover for it and still have a good amount left?

And these are just the reasons I could think off of the top of my head. I'm sure there are more.

- - -

In fact, here's something that breaks my suspension of disbelief... When normal human characters take far more punishment than they should be able to endure, and at worst, get a few bruises and a black eye... Perhaps a broken rib or jaw that'll magically be fully healed after a week of rest, at most.

[deuterio12]

And generally speaking, sports are meant to see who is the best, with as few restrictions as possible.

No, they aren't:

-No items doping, gouging out the other dude's eyes, hitting with a sword pummel, low hits, etc.
-Fox Your weight/gender category only.
-Final destination Limited arenas in controlled conditions.

Sports are all about the restrictions. That's why there's often also a bunch of arbiters close by, making sure the many, many rules are followed.

[Frozen_Feet]

Sports are about seeing who is best within whatever arbitrary set of rules. If you want a martial arts sport where people have minimal risk of injury, you go the way of TKD, semi-contact karate (etc.) where people wear armor, helmets and fights are scored by points. Modern armor already has impact sensors which can tell exactly how hard a strike is, so this can be used to disqualify both too weak and too strong impacts from scoring.

To be frank, I thought amateur / Olympic boxing was already going that way, in contrast to professional boxing.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Re: Where size being ignored isn't the main conceit of the show and therefore bothers me.

Buffy is more than fine and the ignoring of her size isn't even a conceit of the show as it is in Xena. Buffy is the Slayer and has mystical powers.

Star Trek melee can be pretty bad at times with clotheslines and elbows to the chest being far too effective against larger and sometimes armored opponents. At least they follow up with judo throws and usually stay within reasonable bounds with those. Credit where credit is due Data and the Borg are generally portrayed as out of everyone else's league and also being shown to be heavy when interacting with the environment.

On the subject of soft martial arts, I really don't like when they're presented as having no issue with scaling to someone not three or ten times stronger, but a hundred or a thousand. Batman judoing Bane is superheroic, Batman Judoing Superman is stupid.

The whole genre of serial action/dramas set in the modern day that go out of their way to use real technology can often do this badly and their relative verasimilitude in other areas makes it especially jarring.

[J-H]

99% of TV/"show" depictions of "hacking" or image enhancement technology.

[Bohandas]

Indeed, if nothing else the color red is a dead giveaway since it's in the lower level of the enery spectrum. What you really have to worry about is orange/yellow/white lava.

Remember that usually lava takes days to completely cooldown when out in the open, and due to thermodynamics it will cool down slower as its temperature drops, so there will be a significant period at the end where you can even shovel it.

But when it's inside an active volcano or just coming out of it as it's often the case in media, yeah human hair will catch fire just by approaching.

It sure looks red coming out of Kilauea

Destruction of non-living material can hardly be described as "lethal". Pretty simple to just assume the forces involved don't act harmfully on living things.

Shouldn;t it take their hair and their clothes off?

[Peelee]

99% of TV/"show" depictions of "hacking" or image enhancement technology.

Spoiler: And a 1...

Show

Spoiler: ...and a 2

Show

[Frozen_Feet]

Batman using judo on Superman can be plausible, but overall is a headache. It triggers all sorts of questions like: does Superman weigh as much as a normal man? If not, what allows him to stay put when using super strength? Is it his power to fly? Does he need to consciously use that power or is it instinctive? What about his super senses or super speed? Are those always on or does he need to willfully activate them? Can he be distracted?

So on and so forth. In good superhero stories (or battle shounen) and serious spe-fi stories, these kinds of questions are not just asked, they may be decisive plotpoints. But in a more typical comic book, Rule of Cool and artistic license take precedence and such abilities are neither elaborated on nor consistently portrayed.

[Pippa the Pixie]

In fact, here's something that breaks my suspension of disbelief... When normal human characters take far more punishment than they should be able to endure, and at worst, get a few bruises and a black eye... Perhaps a broken rib or jaw that'll magically be fully healed after a week of rest, at most.

This is a good one...and it's so common. The character gets punched in the face, falls off a roof top, slams against a wall, falls some more and lands in a dumpster. Then then just climb out, shake thier head once...oh, and they are just fine.

I'll add the magic 'hit on the head' turns people off like a light switch.

And the magic cut jump right after the above. They get hit on the head...and jump...now the bad guys have them miles away tied to a chair.

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When they do a trick/scam within the show to do something like ''get revenge" or "teach someone a lesson". You have the group of characters that say work at a diner....and they want to do a wacky plan to trick someone. So they all dress up and act diffrent roles. With near prefection.

Of course as the characters ARE actors...they can act out new bits.....but the fictional characters really should not be able to do all that. I'm big in theater, and it's hard enough to get 'folks' to act even a tiny bit....but to get Ed the cashier to perfectly play a wealthy business man...lol.

[Peelee]

When they do a trick/scam within the show to do something like ''get revenge" or "teach someone a lesson". You have the group of characters that say work at a diner....and they want to do a wacky plan to trick someone. So they all dress up and act diffrent roles. With near prefection.

Of course as the characters ARE actors...they can act out new bits.....but the fictional characters really should not be able to do all that. I'm big in theater, and it's hard enough to get 'folks' to act even a tiny bit....but to get Ed the cashier to perfectly play a wealthy business man...lol.

I love watching good actors act poorly.

[Lethologica]

I love watching good actors act poorly.

Good actors acting like bad actors, and doing it well, can be great.