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2019-06-10, 03:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1166 - The Discussion Thread
Tenrin died in an accidental cave-in, and presumably died honorably - because the cave-in took place during combat, where a soldier might expect to find himself. The Suppertime Club died in an accidental gas leak, and were considered not to have died honorably because there was no combat involved.
There's also creating roads, ventilation chimneys, light sources and whatever else actually living 24/7/12 underground requires. Also ventialtion doesn't save you when you stumble unto a pocket of poison gas. And anyway they were mining copper.
I would also like to know your basis for the whole "the goal of the industry is the same so the pravailing practices are the same".
Let me rephrase, "How do you know they didn't have other job opportunities?
Mining interests also tend to dominate their local areas' labor markets, in large part through gaining dominion over local politics and hedging out competition both from other firms and from other industries.
We can observe that pit communities tend not to have much other job opportunities generally. Even if we're reluctant to extend that observation to dwarven lands, we still have to reckon with mining sucking - and sucking so much that 1) it kills people and 2) the Suppertime Club did resolve to abandon it. The point is, it's absurd that they were able to with no more advantages after their deaths than they had before.
How many mamals have two livers? How many were designed by gods to live underground and fit an archetype?
And even then, maybe dying of rock dust poisining as a miner counts as an honorable death.
Why are you using livers to make a point about lungs (not that dwarven livers turn alcohol consumption into an advantage; they are merely resilient and efficient)?
We both know Durkon wouldn't lie to Sigdi.
Also, Durkon wasn't maimed, what are you talking about?
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2019-06-10, 03:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2010
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- Turkey
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2019-06-10, 04:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
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- France
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Re: OOTS #1166 - The Discussion Thread
No he didn't. He caused the cave-in.
The giant has stated a few times that combat, although the most common way to die hnonrably, is not a requirement. There's the caravan story and the poltician getting assassinated one. The only thing that all the honorable deaths had in common is that they are a direct consequence of a choice made to endanger one-self in an obvious way. That's why the accidents aren't hnorable.
But that's the thing, because mining conditions are unpleasant, it's a job people don't want so those who choose it are generally desperate giving employers more leeway to worsen their working conditions for their own gains. We have no reason to assume the same is true for dwarves.
And why are you certain the dwarves have not won those same battles and more?
But we know the dwarves have other jobs: clerics, bards, soldiers, jelly cubes (or whatever) racers, etc.
We know of one who abandonned mining and one who became a mining boss. Out of five.
That is only absurd if you assume they were trapped to begin with.
Scratch that, it's not absurd because as I have already stated, they did have more resource after death than before. Shirra won her case. She could have lended or given money to Squeaky.
So?
To underline that there biology is different from humans. We know that ten pints in ten seconds don't faze them. The gods gave them two livers to accomodate the "heavy drinkers" part of the dwarven archetype. Makes sense that they would give them lungs with a better resistance to rock dust to accomodate "live inside mountains and love mining" parts.
Yeah I think he'd notice if he had to work for less long than the others or something.
And where are you going with this hypothetical?Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2019-06-10, 04:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2018
Re: OOTS #1166 - The Discussion Thread
They're not only fantasy dwarves but parody fantasy dwarves; mining is almost certainly the most common profession in their society. Because that's what fantasy dwarves do.
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2019-06-10, 04:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
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Re: OOTS #1166 - The Discussion Thread
Zimmer, I realize we may wander to the wrong-side of the politic ban with this discussion. I don't think we've actually crossed it yet, but we should be cautious.
Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2019-06-10, 04:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2013
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2019-06-10, 04:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
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- Lake Wobegon
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2019-06-10, 05:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2018
Re: OOTS #1166 - The Discussion Thread
Here's my two cents: every dwarf whom Sigdi had gotten raised, went from not having a family, to having a family. Even besides Shirra's windfall (which I assume she shared), five people who feel intrinsically bound to support each other and their saviour will each have more support than they had as loners with no family. And familial support is a huge deal.
So in my view, it's not at all as if they were in the same position after resurrection as they were in the day before they died in a gas leak. Lawsuit or no lawsuit, it simply isn't comparable.This signature was written by me, Aveline, to indicate that this message was written by me, Aveline.
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2019-06-10, 05:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
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2019-06-10, 05:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2018
Re: OOTS #1166 - The Discussion Thread
This signature was written by me, Aveline, to indicate that this message was written by me, Aveline.
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2019-06-10, 05:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1166 - The Discussion Thread
Last edited by zimmerwald1915; 2019-06-10 at 05:51 PM.
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2019-06-10, 06:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2018
Re: OOTS #1166 - The Discussion Thread
I didn't say that either (although the comic may be saying that, if taken under a strictly class-based analysis). By "a huge deal" I don't mean "the difference between drudgery and success". I just mean that it's a huge deal. They get encouragement and support from each other and can overcome various emotional barriers that they wouldn't have been able to before.
I'm pretty sure your original point was that they must have only had emotional barriers and no economic barriers, if we take the story at face value. I could agree with that (although I have been known to misinterpret people). My point is that emotional barriers are real and familial support is a big difference in that regard.This signature was written by me, Aveline, to indicate that this message was written by me, Aveline.
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2019-06-10, 06:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1166 - The Discussion Thread
Last edited by zimmerwald1915; 2019-06-10 at 06:17 PM.
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2019-06-10, 06:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2018
Re: OOTS #1166 - The Discussion Thread
This signature was written by me, Aveline, to indicate that this message was written by me, Aveline.
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2019-06-10, 06:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2007
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- Olympia, WA
Re: OOTS #1166 - The Discussion Thread
For humans. Dwarves actually live underground. You are equating humans mining on earth without magic, to dwarves mining in OOTS. Humans aren’t adapted to living underground; dwarves are. What a human calls a hellish, inhospitable death trap of a mine, a dwarf calls his living room. Mining for fantasy dwarves is practically a work-from-home career, using the same skill set that a dwarf would use remodeling his house.
I get that you have great sympathy for the plight of the modern miner, and it’s a worthy attitude to take. Fantasy dwarves equipped with underground directional sense, darkvision, and magic spells don’t really have the same hardships.The Giant says: Yes, I am aware TV Tropes exists as a website. ... No, I have never decided to do something in the comic because it was listed on TV Tropes. I don't use it as a checklist for ideas ... and I have never intentionally referenced it in any way.
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2019-06-10, 06:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2018
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2019-06-10, 08:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2019
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- Somewhere over th rainbow
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2019-06-10, 10:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2012
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Re: OOTS #1166 - The Discussion Thread
I cannot believe we are arguing about whether mining is a crap job for dwarves. DWARVES. Who from their inception have been synonymous with mining and forging.
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2019-06-10, 11:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2018
Re: OOTS #1166 - The Discussion Thread
ikr that was my response, they are dwarves; they are parody fantasy dwarves no less; mining is basically most of their economy along with smithing and beer. They like being underground. The dwarf equivalent of our world's miners is going to be whoever has to supply them with wood.
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2019-06-10, 11:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2014
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2019-06-11, 01:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1166 - The Discussion Thread
Ooooo!
I bet normal dwarves think that going into a forest full of trees and taking care of business is only for the most insane and macho badasses. The equivalent of being a professional Enthunter in Fangorn -- only a career choice for those who want to go to Valhalla as soon as practical.I owe Peelee 5 Quatloos. But I am going double or nothing that Durkon will be casting 8th level spells at the big finale.
I bet Goblin_Priest 5 quatloos that Xykon does not know RC has the phylactery at this point in the tale (#1139).
Using my Bardic skills I see the fate of Belkar...so close!
Using my Bardic skills I see the fate of goblinkind!
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2019-06-11, 01:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
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Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2019-06-11, 02:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2016
Re: OOTS #1166 - The Discussion Thread
Dwarves must have geriatric kamikaze battalions.
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2019-06-11, 02:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1166 - The Discussion Thread
Ok now this is some contradiction I have never thought about.
But your statement makes something obvious:
If the caravan lady and politician get a honorable death because they put themselves into danger, why don't miners get honorable deaths as well?
Even if Dwarves are born to mine, it is still dangerous. Or was the poison gas the one and only ever mining accident, and otherwise mining is considered completely non-dangerous?Boytoy of the -Fan-Club
What? It's not my fault we don't get a good-aligned female paragon of promiscuity!
I heard Blue is the color of irony on the internet.
I once fought against a dozen people defending a lady - until the mods took me down in the end.
Want to see my prison tatoo?
*Branded for double posting*
Sometimes, being bad feels so good.
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2019-06-11, 02:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1166 - The Discussion Thread
Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2019-06-11, 03:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1166 - The Discussion Thread
Which wouldn't make much sense, no?
Any mine can collapse, not even talking about poison gas or the various monsters that dwell in mines in D&D land.
Oh, and tree roots. That make tunnels collapse.Boytoy of the -Fan-Club
What? It's not my fault we don't get a good-aligned female paragon of promiscuity!
I heard Blue is the color of irony on the internet.
I once fought against a dozen people defending a lady - until the mods took me down in the end.
Want to see my prison tatoo?
*Branded for double posting*
Sometimes, being bad feels so good.
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2019-06-11, 03:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
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Re: OOTS #1166 - The Discussion Thread
Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2019-06-11, 03:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1166 - The Discussion Thread
If the accidents are foreseeable risks, yes.
Which is exactly my point.
Good thing the caravan story and politician story are not in the comic. In the comic it is clear: alcohol or battle.
I think the Giant just tried to make it sound less stupid as an afterthought, but really I don't think it adds up well if it were canon.Boytoy of the -Fan-Club
What? It's not my fault we don't get a good-aligned female paragon of promiscuity!
I heard Blue is the color of irony on the internet.
I once fought against a dozen people defending a lady - until the mods took me down in the end.
Want to see my prison tatoo?
*Branded for double posting*
Sometimes, being bad feels so good.
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2019-06-11, 03:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
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- France
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Re: OOTS #1166 - The Discussion Thread
All accidents are foreseeable. If you cross a road and get killed by a moving vehicle is that honorable? If the ladder you are on breaks and you break your neck falling is that honorable?
I think it’s pretty clear that it’s either dying in combat (with alcohol counting as combat on behalf of the livers) and/or dying trying to protect someone, as shown with the burning orphanage hedge case.Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2019-06-11, 03:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1166 - The Discussion Thread
The "protect" part would kinda solve this, but is that something you made up or found in the comic or the Giant stories?
ETA: Maybe even that only helps but doesn't solve.
Does fighting for self defense count?
How about working in the dangerous mine to sustain oneself, then?
Really, it's a backwards ethics system and I'm not sure the Giant has chosen well to include it AND try to make it reasonable by giving it some reason with the Hel bet and world setup.Last edited by Mightymosy; 2019-06-11 at 03:57 AM.