Grrl Power IV: Constantly Expanded Universe

[tomandtish]

.... he is unbeatable when it comes to defense score

Toughness and defense are not the same thing. In terms of personal toughness (the ability to resist damage), I agree hes at the top. But defense is more than just toughness. It's the ability to prevent your opponents from affecting you in a negative way. And in that regard he's not even in the top 5 of our heroes.

Question: A villain or villains with unknown powers attack Archon headquarters. You can pick one of our heroes to defend the place. List your top 5.

I'll be very surprised if Achilles is in that list.

[Rogar Demonblud]

From the ones we know well enough to have a grasp of their powers and limits, he'd likely end up about 5-6 on most people's lists, just because he can stand there and take it long enough to allow someone else to tag in with a better plan.

My five would probably start with Hiro and include Math and Stalwart. Maybe Amorphous, if the terrain would favor his stretching. Jabberwocky is a good option too, since she has multiple options. No blasters, since the last thing you want is to level your own base trying to defend it, which rules out Maxima, Halo and Dabbler (all of whom are collateral damage magnets).

Anyway, relatively small hiccup in Sciona's scheme there.

[tyckspoon]

From the ones we know well enough to have a grasp of their powers and limits, he'd likely end up about 5-6 on most people's lists, just because he can stand there and take it long enough to allow someone else to tag in with a better plan.

My five would probably start with Hiro and include Math and Stalwart. Maybe Amorphous, if the terrain would favor his stretching. Jabberwocky is a good option too, since she has multiple options. No blasters, since the last thing you want is to level your own base trying to defend it, which rules out Maxima, Halo and Dabbler (all of whom are collateral damage magnets).

Achilles would delay attackers for maybe 30 seconds before somebody realized there is functionally nothing he can do to actually stop you, so task one guy with punching him into a wall and the rest of the assault team gets on with whatever they came to do.

If you only get one defender, I'd go Maxima, Dabbler, Harem, Halo, and.. hmm.. maybe Jiggawatt? Regardless of collateral damage concerns (And Maxima and Dabbler are certainly capable of fighting in a very precise and controlled fashion.. they just don't seem to like to) if you're looking at a potential one-against-many setup, then you want people whose powers can either cover a very broad area, allow them to project presence in many places at once or with very minimal delay (ie, superspeed, teleportation, setting up automated helpers), or both.

If you get to have a team, I'd put Varia in there somewhere just for the variety of extra options she could provide.

[JeenLeen]

I feel like the last couple comics have lacked a lot in not explaining things in the comic itself, but rather using the text below to explain.

When we first jumped to Sciona possessing a corpse, there was nothing to say it was a flashback. Dave clarified.
In today's comic, he clarifies a lot about the soul battery and how these Alari are not like most others. I know we knew something like that from seeing the refugees before, but still...

It seems a lot of pertinent info that should somehow be relayed. I could see just one of the Alari-possessors making a comment about their group helping a lot; I think an extra square of dialogue could be put in and not make it too crowded or feel too ham-fisted to fit in.
And, as Dave mentioned himself, a little caption noting the flashback was a flashback would have helped.

Question: A villain or villains with unknown powers attack Archon headquarters. You can pick one of our heroes to defend the place. List your top 5.

I'll be very surprised if Achilles is in that list.

Max for power, toughness, and superspeed. She can probably handle most of the threats solo.
Dabbler similarly, minus superspeed. As others noted, both she and Max can be precise when necessary.

The others are trickier. With those two, Halo's shields probably aren't needed. Math is cool, but doesn't add extra to what the team already has.
I like Heatwave for offense and stopping explosions/collaterial damage via absorbing heat. Sure, it's icky, but she can.
Harem for "5 places in once", and if she makes less of herself she is tough and strong enough to do a lot of damage.
Maybe Hiro as a 5th, since he's like a weak Max in a lot of ways.

[lord_khaine]

Toughness and defense are not the same thing. In terms of personal toughness (the ability to resist damage), I agree hes at the top. But defense is more than just toughness. It's the ability to prevent your opponents from affecting you in a negative way. And in that regard he's not even in the top 5 of our heroes.

Your wrong according to the cast page.
Achilles has a -litteral- defence score on that.
And he scores 6 on a scale of 1 to 5.
So he is indeed unbeatable when it comes to defence score.

[Max_Killjoy]

Achilles amounts to a distraction in a lot of fights -- other than being literally indestructible (as far as we've been shown), he's a normal person... no attack powers, no movement powers, nothing. At best one of the super-strong characters can pick him up and throw him at an opponent.

[HandofShadows]

Achilles amounts to a distraction in a lot of fights -- other than being literally indestructible (as far as we've been shown), he's a normal person... no attack powers, no movement powers, nothing. At best one of the super-strong characters can pick him up and throw him at an opponent.

Distractions work. And he is a little stronger than a normal person (about 50% IIRC) (Don't forget he pinned Sconia when she could have sliced up most other characters on the team). And if you get ready to make a big attack and he blocks it, that's a big help in a fight. I think Achilles has been used as a thrown weapon once or twice.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Once, I think, during the restaurant brawl. He's spent more time being used for trap-sweeping by Sydney.

[Radar]

Question: A villain or villains with unknown powers attack Archon headquarters. You can pick one of our heroes to defend the place. List your top 5.

I'll be very surprised if Achilles is in that list.

I like this thought experiment.

1. Dabbler: if a single person has to defend against any possible threat, you have to cover a wide area of skills, defences and most importantly detection methods to counter interlopers. From the whole cast Dabbler (by name even) has the widest range of abilities and experience to use it well in any confrontation. My first choice for a solo defender.

2. Maxima: the only weakness I see is the lack of supernatural detection skills, which makes her open against particularly stealthy opponents. I doubt there are many people, who could beat her even in such a situation, but a decent surprise round could hurt her. Even more reasonable would be to go around her, if she cannot detect the intruder. I am also not sure, how well she handles mental attacks, but we have insufficient data to say anything here.

3. Hiro: high raw power and solid background to do the job well. Very similar set of abilities to Maxima just less powerful.

4. Harem: this one really depends on the equipment she could have access to. With her multipresence and teleportation abilities she could conduct a hell of a guerilla war on her own. During the bar brawl she was an amazingly effective logistic backup, which shows at least some of her potential. Without any particular combat abilities of her own she would have to rely on technology to do any real damage, so against stronger supers or supernaturals it could be tricky (although going all Wild Geese against some vampires would be really cool - just maybe without the dying part). Now if Dabbler would ever decide to lend Harem some of the good stuff, she could easily jump way higher on the list.

5. Halo: the only reason she is not higher on the list are her overal problems with focus and a bit of - lets say - skittishness. She is way better with it right now though, but I still think that guard duty might be too much for her yet. Staying vigilant over a long period of time is difficult, if nothing happens. By pure fighting ability she could hang around the top of the list with her wide range of skill as well as raw offensive and defensive power. Her detection skills are also an edge she has over quite a few other heroes (not just people - also magic effects, auras etc.), but defending a building is a different task altogether.

[Rogar Demonblud]

If you're inside the building, Halo likely can't get her shield small enough to fit most places (the smallest we've seen her make it is about a 7 foot diameter {still taller than Maxima}, which means she can't go through doors or most hallways). And without her shield, anybody with a gun can terminate her on sight.

[HandofShadows]

A quick note on Harem. If she combines all her bodies into a single one, her power level starts going up quite a bit.

[lord_khaine]

If you're inside the building, Halo likely can't get her shield small enough to fit most places (the smallest we've seen her make it is about a 7 foot diameter {still taller than Maxima}, which means she can't go through doors or most hallways). And without her shield, anybody with a gun can terminate her on sight.

We have seen her make the shield quite narrow. She should be able to pass though a door with it.

[Traab]

She has put up her shield indoors plenty of times. Also, she has her lighthook for nonexplody combat. Its capable of 15 tons or so worth of lifting power which is pretty respectable. Yes several members of arcswat can surpass that, but thats still significant, even more so when used effectively as the lighthook is fully malleable to whatever form she wants it to take. Remember achilles restraining sciona? Imagine if sydney had wrapped her up in that restraining hold? With 15 tons of power backing it up she could have held much longer and even done more to restrain her further as she has a lot of tentacle to work with.

Lets not forget her shield makes her invulnerable to anything below a mid sized meteor strike. Even that massive crater inducing blast didnt break through her shield, it just brought it down into the red partially. No damage got through. You would need to be maxima at full boost, or vehemence after a 50 person superbrawl, to have the power needed to do that. And on top of this, with multiple bad guys, she can send a totally untouchable hologram of herself to scout out where the second bad guy is then TELEPORT TO HIM FULLY SHIELDED!

Combine all these hard points of abilities with her genre savvy ability to break down an enemy's skills and find the weaknesses, and halo is actully pretty high up the charts. Maxima first, then I honestly think dabbler and halo are pretty close. Dabbler may technically be better than sydney, but she has also shown a marked tendency to mess around and get in trouble. Plus we dont know what she is fully capable of so its hard to judge how effective she would be in a number of scenarios.

[lord_khaine]

Combine all these hard points of abilities with her genre savvy ability to break down an enemy's skills and find the weaknesses, and halo is actully pretty high up the charts. Maxima first, then I honestly think dabbler and halo are pretty close. Dabbler may technically be better than sydney, but she has also shown a marked tendency to mess around and get in trouble. Plus we dont know what she is fully capable of so its hard to judge how effective she would be in a number of scenarios.

I would rate Sydney a bit lower than Dabbler myself.
Her tendency to mess around seems to scale down with the severity of the situation.
And she is far smarter than Sydney, who can be a bit of a spazz.

[John Campbell]

Against a complete unknown, my top three would be Max, because superspeed trumps an awful lot of things, especially when paired with even the base level of Max's other capabilities, and then Halo and Dabbler, because of their flexibility. (No, Dabbler, not that kind of flexibility.) Probably Hiro and Anvil after that.

But certainly not Achilles. Anything that Achilles can tank that those other five can't is going to blast him into the next county anyway, and while that wouldn't hurt him, it doesn't help anything around him or really contribute to the fight. And he doesn't have any other tricks. A good-enough defense paired with a suite of offensive and utility powers is a lot more useful than perfect invulnerability and nothing else. And Max and Hiro's toughness, Halo's shield, Dabbler's warding magic, and Anvil's kinetic absorption are good-enough defenses against most things, and they all bring other tools to the fight. A wide variety of them in Dabbler and Halo's cases.

[Traab]

Yeah achilles is kinda ineffective in most scenarios that require super help. Pretty much any of the bad guy bricks in the super brawl could have hurled him out of the battle, or buried him so he couldnt get out. Thats not counting those with blasting powers or who otherwise could do the same. Like what happened at the power demonstration. He took the railgun to the chest and blocked that round sure, but the sheer momentum launched him to the next county removing him from the fight, had it been one. You could basically handcuff a cinder block to his ankle and toss him in a lake. He wont die, but he wont be getting out of there any time soon. Handcuff him to a light pole and get the same effect.

[Calemyr]

Yeah achilles is kinda ineffective in most scenarios that require super help. Pretty much any of the bad guy bricks in the super brawl could have hurled him out of the battle, or buried him so he couldnt get out. Thats not counting those with blasting powers or who otherwise could do the same. Like what happened at the power demonstration. He took the railgun to the chest and blocked that round sure, but the sheer momentum launched him to the next county removing him from the fight, had it been one. You could basically handcuff a cinder block to his ankle and toss him in a lake. He wont die, but he wont be getting out of there any time soon. Handcuff him to a light pole and get the same effect.

Raw invulnerability plus unshackled strength (able to go 100% all the time without risk of damage) is pretty good, but it's honestly more of a utility power than a combat power. Send him into a certain-death scenario to disable a runaway nuclear reactor or tire out a rampaging monster, and he's good. But he can't outfight an unarmed Sydney.

I think it's also coupled with a major complication, however, in Achilles nature - I don't know if the man has an aggressive bone in his body. If he were a fighter, if he were trained to use his strength well, he'd be a pretty solid second stringer, but the man is invincible and knows it so he doesn't really have a drive to protect himself.

[halfeye]

Raw invulnerability plus unshackled strength (able to go 100% all the time without risk of damage) is pretty good, but it's honestly more of a utility power than a combat power. Send him into a certain-death scenario to disable a runaway nuclear reactor or tire out a rampaging monster, and he's good. But he can't outfight an unarmed Sydney.

I think it's also coupled with a major complication, however, in Achilles nature - I don't know if the man has an aggressive bone in his body. If he were a fighter, if he were trained to use his strength well, he'd be a pretty solid second stringer, but the man is invincible and knows it so he doesn't really have a drive to protect himself.

Not aggressive? he stopped a swordpoint with his eyeball. That's pretty aggressive in my book. It may not be that much more technically effective than stopping it with his fist, but heck it makes for a very strong double-take that the fist wouldn't.

[Calemyr]

Not aggressive? he stopped a swordpoint with his eyeball. That's pretty aggressive in my book. It may not be that much more technically effective than stopping it with his fist, but heck it makes for a very strong double-take that the fist wouldn't.

I wouldn't call it aggressive, I'd call it passive. He uses his own body as a shield because he's invincible. Once again, he's not at risk so he sees no problem with it.

[Radar]

Not aggressive? he stopped a swordpoint with his eyeball. That's pretty aggressive in my book. It may not be that much more technically effective than stopping it with his fist, but heck it makes for a very strong double-take that the fist wouldn't.

That was not really aggressive, since he simply steped in to take the blow. Did he try to dish out some damage of his own? Not really. I a way Achilles seems to be a bit detached from reality - in many situations it looks as if he did not take things too seriously, since for him there is only danger of boredom to fear. Sydney used him as a trap-finding tool and he did not care at all.

[lord_khaine]

But certainly not Achilles. Anything that Achilles can tank that those other five can't is going to blast him into the next county anyway, and while that wouldn't hurt him, it doesn't help anything around him or really contribute to the fight. And he doesn't have any other tricks. A good-enough defense paired with a suite of offensive and utility powers is a lot more useful than perfect invulnerability and nothing else. And Max and Hiro's toughness, Halo's shield, Dabbler's warding magic, and Anvil's kinetic absorption are good-enough defenses against most things, and they all bring other tools to the fight. A wide variety of them in Dabbler and Halo's cases.

Well yeah, of course Achilles is going to be less usefull in this specific challenge.
It was after all set up as a strawman to a point i made earlier

[Forum Explorer]

Achilles has a pretty amazing strength in scouting. He can be sent in against anything, fight it, and report how it fought back.


As others have mentioned, he really is sub-optimal in how he fights too. You could do a lot with full on invincibility, but he's content to allow himself to be smacked around.

[Lamech]

Unless Achilles gets captured, mind controlled, teleported into the sun etc. Then he can't report back.

[Traab]

Achilles has a pretty amazing strength in scouting. He can be sent in against anything, fight it, and report how it fought back.


As others have mentioned, he really is sub-optimal in how he fights too. You could do a lot with full on invincibility, but he's content to allow himself to be smacked around.

Assuming he isnt promptly captured because he is barely stronger than a normal human of his size and body type. He has no ability to fast travel, no offensive abilities beyond being used as a flail by someone who DOES have offensive abilities. No method of escape other than "Haha, you thought you could clonk me on the head and knock me out? Thats cute!" runs off with a WOOP WOOP WOOP WOOP! sound effect. The only thing making him more useful than peggy in hand to hand combat is not having to worry about him getting hurt. Achilles is just... ugh. His power demonstration really brought it into focus. He headbutt a tank, did no damage, took no damage, and bored everyone watching.

[Keltest]

Assuming he isnt promptly captured because he is barely stronger than a normal human of his size and body type. He has no ability to fast travel, no offensive abilities beyond being used as a flail by someone who DOES have offensive abilities. No method of escape other than "Haha, you thought you could clonk me on the head and knock me out? Thats cute!" runs off with a WOOP WOOP WOOP WOOP! sound effect. The only thing making him more useful than peggy in hand to hand combat is not having to worry about him getting hurt. Achilles is just... ugh. His power demonstration really brought it into focus. He headbutt a tank, did no damage, took no damage, and bored everyone watching.

Much like Wolverine, Achilles should be able to hit well harder than a normal human as he doesn't need to worry about damaging his own body on impact. You punch somebody with bone breaking force, your own bones are getting hit with just as much force, just in your hand.

Actually, I wonder if Achilles isn't actually able to make himself any stronger than he is now? My understanding is that muscle growth happens because the muscles take minute amounts of damage on strain, and grow back bigger. But if his muscles don't take the damage because of his power, then he wouldn't actually be able to grow any more muscle mass.

I know, probably more thought than Dave put in.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Achilles is just... ugh. His power demonstration really brought it into focus. He headbutt a tank, did no damage, took no damage, and bored everyone watching.

Achilles' power demonstration was just poorly planned. A purely defensive ability can't be properly showcased by the defender alone. What they should have done, is either have him go first - and have the still-intact tank shoot him for absolutely no damage - or had someone like Dabbler assist the demonstration properly. Instead she just used him as a backstop in her railgun demonstration.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Which probably did impress some of the reporters when he tanked that shot.

[Forum Explorer]

Assuming he isnt promptly captured because he is barely stronger than a normal human of his size and body type. He has no ability to fast travel, no offensive abilities beyond being used as a flail by someone who DOES have offensive abilities. No method of escape other than "Haha, you thought you could clonk me on the head and knock me out? Thats cute!" runs off with a WOOP WOOP WOOP WOOP! sound effect. The only thing making him more useful than peggy in hand to hand combat is not having to worry about him getting hurt. Achilles is just... ugh. His power demonstration really brought it into focus. He headbutt a tank, did no damage, took no damage, and bored everyone watching.

Again, Achilles' power is amazing. Achilles' use of that power? Pretty pathetic. The power demonstration is a perfect example of that. His best idea was headbutting a tank. While instead he could've gone last, and the finale was having everyone hit him as hard as possible, and he just walks through it, effortlessly.

And he could weaponize himself so easily. Like, why isn't he carrying a bunch of C4, like all the time? Or canisters of thermite? Even just knowing a martial art would make him so much more useful.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Again, Achilles' power is amazing. Achilles' use of that power? Pretty pathetic. The power demonstration is a perfect example of that. His best idea was headbutting a tank. While instead he could've gone last, and the finale was having everyone hit him as hard as possible, and he just walks through it, effortlessly.

And he could weaponize himself so easily. Like, why isn't he carrying a bunch of C4, like all the time? Or canisters of thermite? Even just knowing a martial art would make him so much more useful.

I don't think "Captain Collateral Damage" would be a good character for Archon PR, so carrying area-effect weapons that he survives when his opponent doesn't won't fly. Plus having a literal walking bomb as one of your teammates is probably not a good idea. And we don't know if he can learn martial arts, or any kind of permanent skill, because it's been speculated that his complete and utter invulnerability extends to his mental state. He does seem to retain memories, but whether or not he can actually train his body to the level of muscle-memory required for martial arts is uncertain.

[Ibrinar]

You know he could actually pull of rocket jumps or enter somewhere fast by being shoot out of a cannon. But yeah explosives aren't bystander friendly. Getting at least a gun would increase his offensive potential a bit though.

There should be something that can make use of not having to worry about its wielders health. Like if he wants to horrifically burn his enemies he can wear plate armor and heat it to be white hot immediately before. He can use gas attacks and not be hampered by it himself.

But something that is useful against serious supers and not a hazard to others is not easy.