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2019-08-02, 10:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII
We don't know how many, and they're reserved in Nessus, yes.
If there are a lot why not send some up for the blood war to swing it majorly?
And how do the other pit fiends, either regular or of note, feel about those fiends who got it all for free?
And again why aren't those super pit fiends replacing the generals because they are just better.
Also, is there a list of remaining Obyrith lords anywhere other than FC1?Need a place to hang? Like Discord? Don't mind dealing with a capricious demon lord? Then you're welcome to join our LGBTQ+ friendly, often silly, very geeky server to discuss food, music, video games, tabletop, and much more.
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2019-08-02, 10:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII
Who's the oldest to youngest of the Dragon Deity Siblings: Bahamut, Tamara, Hlal, Tiamat, Falazure, Garyx, Astilabor, Chronepsis, Sardior, Lendys and Aasterinian?
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2019-08-02, 10:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII
A friend of mine is just starting out as a DM, and has made a dungeon with heavy fiendish influence. The cultists who built the place millions of years ago (the setting writers had no sense of time scale), and worshipped a deity of unmaking. The place is littered with both devils and yugoloths, still bound by ancient magics.
What advice would you give him in running the yugoloths and devils down there? How would Neutral Evil and Lawful Evil interact, trapped alone with each other for so long? General kinds of tactics they might use? Many of these fiends would have spent the vast majority of their existence away from the politics of their races, as well as need to work with creatures of different principles, and have magical obligations that might restrict them from turning the place into another Gehenna.
What's your perspective on what would happen in such a dungeon?
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2019-08-04, 06:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII
The devils would organize, as they do, and likely enlist other sentients to serve them in the manner of organized crime. They would almost certainly openly codify rules about devils harming devils, specifically don't do that, but that would be little more than a veneer of good faith to cover for using mortals as catspaws against one another. The yugoloths would be known factors without loyalties - dangerous solo players in a team game, each with no more love for other yugoloths than for any other. Without the trust of others to maintain an organized power base, each would have a history of treachery that results in them being called upon only when their specific skillset is so required that no safer alternative is available. The yugoloths would likely prioritize escape in any dealings, since they devoutly despise being bound. The devils, while they would likely appreciate freedom, likely believe they could get out eventually of their own accord once they've outmaneuvered all rivals and taken whatever magic and knowledge they possess. This might even be true.
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Manual of the Planes 5th Edition: for all the things the official 5E Planescape didn't cover. Check it out.
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2019-08-04, 07:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-08-04, 09:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII
Inspired by another thread, failed to find source material on the matter. Do we know anything about the opinions of Mount Celestia on mortal governance? (As in, how mortals ought to run their governments) Or, failing that, what do we know about Mount Celestia's own government?
Vincent Omnia Veritas
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2019-08-05, 03:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII
...well how the devil did that happen? I had it written up. Ah hash.
Basic answer: Chronepsis is likely oldest and may be a sibling or other near-contemporary of Io rather than one of Io's children. Given the nature of Io, most likely technically still derived from the Ninefold Dragon, but there you are. Vorel was first of Io's "children" and Vorel is dead. Bahamut and Tiamat are roughly, if not exactly, concurrent. Astilabor, Aasterinian, Hlal, and Sardior are likely the younger cohort. Tamara and Lendys would likely be somewhere in between. That leaves Garyx and Faluzure, wherever they go. Possibly the same generation as Tamara and Lendys. That's all to say, of course, that this is pure speculation entirely on the basis of because you asked - it's not something I've ever concerned myself with prior.
Nothing canonical on it, and I would expect they have had long eons to come to grips with the fact that any stabs at "perfect" governance are limited by the factors complicating life on the Prime.
Or, failing that, what do we know about Mount Celestia's own government?Need a place to hang? Like Discord? Don't mind dealing with a capricious demon lord? Then you're welcome to join our LGBTQ+ friendly, often silly, very geeky server to discuss food, music, video games, tabletop, and much more.
Manual of the Planes 5th Edition: for all the things the official 5E Planescape didn't cover. Check it out.
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2019-08-05, 07:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2013
Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII
So I got a whole bunch of questions that concern the rough settlement history of the sphere. Because no, I can't just come in and ask something simple for a change.
1. The origins of spheres
Have all spheres that are and ever will be always existed, or can spheres come into being (whether spontenously or by divine will), or is it a mixture of both?
If it's a mixture, do we know which of the known spheres are which?
2. The settlement of spheres
Am I right to assume that a sphere can become populated either by a) migration (e.g. via spelljammer), b) deities creating life, or c) life occuring spontenously (which eventually gives rise to deities)?
If so, do we know which spheres' populations got started which way?
3. The relative age of populated spheres
I know you recently answered a question about how the calendars of various worlds line up. Based on this kinda info, which spheres can be placed in an order of how old they are (in terms how much history has occurred there since it got populated)?
4. The life span of spheres
I have heard that some cataclysms can straight up break a sphere, and more commonly, even if a sphere itself remains intact the contained system sometimes has a shelf-life (e.g. Athas has not quite gone bad but it smells funny).
But is it a rule that a given sphere can only sustain life for a limited amount of time before it somehow breaks or just becomes to inhospitable?
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2019-08-05, 07:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-08-06, 12:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII
On the subject of crystal spheres: Athas is cut off from both spelljamming and planar travel to the wider multiverse (barring a handful of exceptions), apparently has its own local copies (or cut-off chunks) of the Astral,
totally-not-EtherealGray, and possibly various Inner Planes accessible within the sphere, and is often referred to as a "closed sphere" or "sealed sphere." The only way I know of to seal a crystal sphere is with Proctiv's seal crystal sphere, but that doesn't mention anything about planar side effects.
1) Does sealing a sphere, with that spell or otherwise, also automatically "seal in" relevant portions of the Transitive Planes and other coexistent/coterminous planes, similar to Athas?
2) If not (and I'm assuming not), is it possible for a god/planar lord/epic wizard/etc. to do in a canonical way--i.e. not just handwave divine power or whip up an arbitrary Proctiv's Cut A Crystal Sphere Off From The Planes epic spell--and if so, who/what might be able to do that, and how?
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2019-08-06, 10:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII
I mean I can still answer you simply, especially if ("if" ) your questions are too broad in scope.
Have all spheres that are and ever will be always existed, or can spheres come into being (whether spontenously or by divine will), or is it a mixture of both?
If it's a mixture, do we know which of the known spheres are which?
Am I right to assume that a sphere can become populated either by a) migration (e.g. via spelljammer), b) deities creating life, or c) life occuring spontenously (which eventually gives rise to deities)?
If so, do we know which spheres' populations got started which way?
I know you recently answered a question about how the calendars of various worlds line up. Based on this kinda info, which spheres can be placed in an order of how old they are (in terms how much history has occurred there since it got populated)?
I have heard that some cataclysms can straight up break a sphere, and more commonly, even if a sphere itself remains intact the contained system sometimes has a shelf-life (e.g. Athas has not quite gone bad but it smells funny).
But is it a rule that a given sphere can only sustain life for a limited amount of time before it somehow breaks or just becomes to inhospitable?
What kind of dragon Vorel was anyway?
And finally what was Vorel alignment?
To be specific, the Gray is a phenomenon that contaminates the transitive links of the sphere, a kind of "dead-end street" to (most) Astral conduits and a deadly labyrinth to the Deep Ethereal. Functionally it's still essentially the Border Ethereal, just poisoned.
1) Does sealing a sphere, with that spell or otherwise, also automatically "seal in" relevant portions of the Transitive Planes and other coexistent/coterminous planes, similar to Athas?
2) If not (and I'm assuming not), is it possible for a god/planar lord/epic wizard/etc. to do in a canonical way--i.e. not just handwave divine power or whip up an arbitrary Proctiv's Cut A Crystal Sphere Off From The Planes epic spell--and if so, who/what might be able to do that, and how?Need a place to hang? Like Discord? Don't mind dealing with a capricious demon lord? Then you're welcome to join our LGBTQ+ friendly, often silly, very geeky server to discuss food, music, video games, tabletop, and much more.
Manual of the Planes 5th Edition: for all the things the official 5E Planescape didn't cover. Check it out.
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2019-08-06, 10:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII
Was Vorel male or female?
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2019-08-06, 11:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII
Man I keep slipping up with these. Vorel was male.
Also just to head off any further questions, the sum total of info we have on Vorel is covered above. Vorel died, Tiamat killed him, Tiamat blamed Bahamut, it didn't work because Io's not an idiot, and that's it. Vorel was not the god of any dragon type, was never physically described, and no attributes are allocated to Vorel besides "male" and "dead." There is no more information to give.Need a place to hang? Like Discord? Don't mind dealing with a capricious demon lord? Then you're welcome to join our LGBTQ+ friendly, often silly, very geeky server to discuss food, music, video games, tabletop, and much more.
Manual of the Planes 5th Edition: for all the things the official 5E Planescape didn't cover. Check it out.
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2019-08-06, 11:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-08-07, 01:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII
Why do liches that have achieved divine status always have girly-sounding names?
Vecna only a little bit, Mellifleur extremely so, and Velsharoon moderately-but-also-kinda-fungus-ish.
I use braces (also known as "curly brackets") to indicate sarcasm. If there are none present, I probably believe what I am saying; should it turn out to be inaccurate trivia, please tell me rather than trying to play along with an apparent joke I don't know I'm making.
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2019-08-07, 05:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII
I may have already asked this in a previous thread, but... does Chernovog rate a mention in D&D anywhere outside the Expedition to Castle Ravenloft adventure?
My winning competition entries: Kinvig Arrumskor | The Great Pumpkinhead | Wynfrith d'Acker
Torn-City - Massively multiplayer online browser based crime RPG
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2019-08-07, 06:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII
Oddly enough, no. The Slavic pantheon article in Dragon 290 excluded him completely. I wonder how he feels about that.
Need a place to hang? Like Discord? Don't mind dealing with a capricious demon lord? Then you're welcome to join our LGBTQ+ friendly, often silly, very geeky server to discuss food, music, video games, tabletop, and much more.
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2019-08-09, 07:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII
Me again. Is Io a great father to most of his children? I know that he has a great relationship with Bahamut but not so much with Tiamat. What about the rest of his children? Any history on that note?
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2019-08-09, 11:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII
I mean, he doesn't have a great relationship with Bahamut. Io is no happier about Bahamut choosing Good to oppose Tiamat than he is about Tiamat killing Vorel. Io is a remote deity and his relationships with the other draconic deities are not elaborated on in any meaningful fashion.
Need a place to hang? Like Discord? Don't mind dealing with a capricious demon lord? Then you're welcome to join our LGBTQ+ friendly, often silly, very geeky server to discuss food, music, video games, tabletop, and much more.
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2019-08-10, 03:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII
So theres a shadow planet on the shadow plane isnt there also an ethereal version of the material world?
If one conjures a mountain with magic is one also conjuring a mountain on these planes?
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2019-08-11, 10:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII
Afro, you know of course this diagramm of the ranks of the baatezu. I've been wondering how you would fit all those types of baatezu that were added to the game after the diagramm was created into the hierarchy. Specifically, I'm asking about the following: Agonarch, Ayperobos, Bueroza, Dogai, Malebranche, Merregon, Narzugon, Orthon, Paeliryon, Xerfilstyx (all in FC II), Ghargatula (BoVD), Logokron (ToM), Advespa (MM2), Remmanon and Gulthir (MM 5).
Also, do similiar visualisations of promotion and demotion paths for Archons, Eladrin and Yugoloth? For Rilmani and Guardinals we don't need any, Tana'ri are too random for something like that, and for Slaads and Modrones we already have them.Last edited by Tzardok; 2019-09-10 at 08:41 AM.
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2019-08-11, 12:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII
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2019-08-14, 07:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII
Is the cycle of outsiders dying, returning to their home plane, and being recycled powered by the divine or by planar mechanics?
Do I need to be a deity to grow my own outsiders or have an epic Genesis spell?Last edited by unseenmage; 2019-08-15 at 05:51 AM.
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2019-08-14, 10:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII
Do Petitioners in Divine Realms tend to retain more of their original identities than Petitioners that generically appear on Outer Planes?
What would be some notable examples of deities that grant afterlives that
1. Explicitly let you remain "you", without losing your memories or sense of self.
2. Offer potential for the worthy to advance into more powerful and influential forms than just being basic 2HD Petitioners
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2019-08-16, 05:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII
Howdy! Bit of a grab-bag of questions:
Regarding the variety of "evil star" entities such as Acamar, Hadar, etc: are they strictly a Faerunian presence? Are they strictly a 4e-and-on presence?
Is there any information on Thoon or the associated mind flayers beyond the one monster manual they appear in? Is there enough information to draw any connection between their quintessence and any other times that word has been used to describe a substance?
In your discussion of the beginning of the planes (featuring the Friendly Mentoring Aboleth), you note the first creatures in the universe as Dragons and Draeden. Are these Dragons meant to be the same general type as the dragons that exist in most worlds (ie of the metallic and chromatic, etc variety), or some sort of 'primal' dragon that no longer exists?
Following on that you note the first gods as Io and Rhiannon, prior to any sentient Prime life other than Aboleth. If I'm reading properly, the only sentients at that time are your "first" dragons, the slumbering draedens, the creatures that will become fey, the aboleths, and early elemental life. Are Io and Rhiannon meant to be created by one of these groups in some fashion, by the Old Ones, or deliberately unknown?
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2019-08-18, 12:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII
No; the Ethereal does not contain a copy of the Material Plane. Shadow does. The land, buildings, etc. you see on the Ethereal are those of the Material Plane itself, assuming we're not talking about structures built on the Ethereal proper.
If one conjures a mountain with magic is one also conjuring a mountain on these planes?
T'is dumb, yes. As Fable Wright points out. Correct advancement is found in FCII. The chart you linked uses information from Faces of Evil and essentially writes paths based on strict observances on advancement caps for various devil types.
I've been wondering how you would fit all those types of baatezu that were added to the game after the diagramm was created into the hierarchy. Specifically, I'm asking about the following: Argonarch, Ayperobos, Bueroza, Dogai, Malebranche, Merregon, Narzugon, Orthon, Paeliryon, Xerfilstyx (all in FC II), Ghargatula (BoVD), Logokron (ToM), Advespa (MM2), Remmanon and Gulthir (MM 5).
The order of the baatezu hierarchy is as follows:
The Least
Nupperibo (not in the line)
Lemure
Ayperobos (nonstandard caste)
Spinagon
The Lesser
Merregon (less independent and less agency than a spinagon but part of the Infernal armies and more well-regarded)
Advespa
Barbazu
Imp (not a baatezu type, but these can be promoted to baatezu, be created from lower-ranked baatezu, and are generally pretty happy being complicit in devil society's in-group)
Narzugon
Gulthir (demotion caste, only exists as a punishment for higher-ranking devils)
Bueroza
Kochrachon/falxugon
Erinyes
Amnizu
The Greater
Malebranche (demotion caste, only exists as a punishment for higher-ranking devils)
Osyluth/orthon
Hamatula
Logokron
Xerfilstyx (demotion caste, only exists as a punishment for higher-ranking devils)
Gelugon (most common caste promoted to pit fiend)
Brachina (only promoted from former erinyes)
Ghargatula (demotion caste, only exists as a punishment for higher-ranking devils)
Remmanon
Cornugon (demoted to gelugon to prepare for pit fiend rank)
Dogai (outside the hierarchy and not made from other baatezu, but this is roughly the status they command)
Paeliryon
Pit fiend
Rough estimate by me. Baatezu are by no means required to go through the whole hierarchy. I left off the abishai because they're a separate and usually isolated track.
Also, do similiar visualisations of promotion and demotion paths for Archons, Eladrin and Yugoloth?
Planar mechanics govern soul motion.
Do I need to be a deity to grow my own outsiders or have an epic Genesis spell?
You could always be a lady, have a memorable evening with something otherworldly, pee on a stick, get lucky... you'd be growing your own outsider then. Native outsider, mind...
I'm not really sure what other method you'd be asking about. Are you asking if you can create new outsiders wholecloth with non-epic magic? I would assume "no" pretty much by definition.
Not particularly.
What would be some notable examples of deities that grant afterlives that
1. Explicitly let you remain "you", without losing your memories or sense of self.
2. Offer potential for the worthy to advance into more powerful and influential forms than just being basic 2HD Petitioners
4E-and-later from what I can see.
Is there any information on Thoon or the associated mind flayers beyond the one monster manual they appear in?
Is there enough information to draw any connection between their quintessence and any other times that word has been used to describe a substance?
In your discussion of the beginning of the planes (featuring the Friendly Mentoring Aboleth), you note the first creatures in the universe as Dragons and Draeden. Are these Dragons meant to be the same general type as the dragons that exist in most worlds (ie of the metallic and chromatic, etc variety), or some sort of 'primal' dragon that no longer exists?
Following on that you note the first gods as Io and Rhiannon, prior to any sentient Prime life other than Aboleth. If I'm reading properly, the only sentients at that time are your "first" dragons, the slumbering draedens, the creatures that will become fey, the aboleths, and early elemental life. Are Io and Rhiannon meant to be created by one of these groups in some fashion, by the Old Ones, or deliberately unknown?Need a place to hang? Like Discord? Don't mind dealing with a capricious demon lord? Then you're welcome to join our LGBTQ+ friendly, often silly, very geeky server to discuss food, music, video games, tabletop, and much more.
Manual of the Planes 5th Edition: for all the things the official 5E Planescape didn't cover. Check it out.
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2019-08-18, 07:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII
Thank you very much!
A few more questions that came to mind:
Does the worship of Inner Planes creatures empower deities, or is it just those on the Material Plane?
If a god is trapped, imprisoned or otherwise sealed up in a crystal sphere (say via the Godtrap or a set of very unlikely circumstances and a similar magical shenanigan), is that god trapped or what-have-you throughout hte planes, or is it just the sphere-specific manifestation of that god that is affected?
Do you think there's anything significant or suggestive about the fact that Yan-C-Bin takes a physical form reminiscent of the Vaati?
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2019-08-18, 07:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII
Am trying to find a way to either create new outsiders and their cycle of returning to their "native" plane when they're slain on another plane.
OR
How to transplant some of that cycle to a new, possibly even artificially made, demiplane.
It's for my own curiosity and for a theoretical optimization game I'm in.
I made a thread for discussion and collecting of RAW on how 3.x outsider soul transmigration functions if you're interested.
How to Bootleg Outsiders
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2019-08-18, 09:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII
Huh, they changed the name in the German translation, but only of that specific type of devil. That's... different.
Yes, Excruciarch was supposed to be what I asked for. You didn't put them in the list, so... do they fit best between Bueroza and Kochrachon/Falxugon or on the same line as Kochrachon/Falxugon?
Dogai (outside the hierarchy and not made from other baatezu, but this is roughly the status they command)Last edited by Tzardok; 2019-08-18 at 12:07 PM.
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2019-08-18, 11:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII
Depends on the creature, buuuut for the vast majority, no.
If a god is trapped, imprisoned or otherwise sealed up in a crystal sphere (say via the Godtrap or a set of very unlikely circumstances and a similar magical shenanigan), is that god trapped or what-have-you throughout hte planes, or is it just the sphere-specific manifestation of that god that is affected?
Do you think there's anything significant or suggestive about the fact that Yan-C-Bin takes a physical form reminiscent of the Vaati?
Outside of making up your own epic spell to do that, nothing comes to mind.
It's for my own curiosity and for a theoretical optimization game I'm in.
They're the same thing as kochrachons, just redesigned a tad. You'll note kochrachons aren't in the list in the appendix. Same CR, same niche.
Obvious follow-up question is obvious
If they aren't made from other baatezu, where do Dogai come from?Originally Posted by FCIINeed a place to hang? Like Discord? Don't mind dealing with a capricious demon lord? Then you're welcome to join our LGBTQ+ friendly, often silly, very geeky server to discuss food, music, video games, tabletop, and much more.
Manual of the Planes 5th Edition: for all the things the official 5E Planescape didn't cover. Check it out.