Fallout IX: Nuclear Cash Cows Go MMOoooooo!

[Cikomyr]

Well, it's technically not possible to avoid the settlement building stuff entirely, because it's required to complete the main plot--fortunately, you don't actually need any settlers at that place.

Is it? But only if you don't enlist the help of the Brudderhood or the Railroad Plot?

[factotum]

Is it? But only if you don't enlist the help of the Brudderhood or the Railroad Plot?

Doesn't matter who you enlist help from, you need to intercept the Institute's teleportation beam to get in there first time and meet Father, and that requires building. Unless someone knows different?

[Triaxx]

The only place that requires a settler is if you don't use Sanctuary for the minutemen, and then it's only to send Sturgis there.

Personally I only really build myself a home at Red Rocket, and have all the fancy modding toys there. And then defenses at Sanctuary, otherwise the noise gets on my nerves. But honestly I wish that the attacks would be 2-3 big waves instead of the 5 or so enemies you get that run in one at a time and die to the rocket turrets.

[The_Jackal]

The only place that requires a settler is if you don't use Sanctuary for the minutemen, and then it's only to send Sturgis there.

Personally I only really build myself a home at Red Rocket, and have all the fancy modding toys there. And then defenses at Sanctuary, otherwise the noise gets on my nerves. But honestly I wish that the attacks would be 2-3 big waves instead of the 5 or so enemies you get that run in one at a time and die to the rocket turrets.

One of the things I appreciated about survival is how the need for food, water, and bedding made settlements even slightly relevant. That's really all I'm looking for: A motivation for interacting with the system. I never found the system that *bad*, though the cumbersome limitations of the workbench storage were certainly annoying. I also never felt compelled to play settlement dollhouse, I just built to provide food and adhesive, beds for everyone, enough turrets to keep the place reasonably safe, then put everyone leftover to work on scavenging stations. Then all one needed to is occasionally swing by to harvest crops, and empty out the bench. Nothing past that ever seemed worthwhile to me. Improving my settlers mood, and therefore rate of scrap production would really only increase the frequency at which I had to visit the place and tidy up.

I wouldn't have minded a reason to further build up my settlements, to make my citizens happy, if the game had furnished a reason to do so, apart from 'So the numbers go higher'.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Something has been bothering me for years about New Vegas so I better ask now before I forget again.

I know this doesn’t just happen to me, but does anyone know why when you pick an item up sometimes the other loose items around it just move by themselves?

In Bison Steve for example, if I find the bathtub with the skeleton, picking up any of the whiskey or chems nearby will cause said skeleton to literally leap out of the tub! Weird.

[Ortho]

Something has been bothering me for years about New Vegas so I better ask now before I forget again.

I know this doesn’t just happen to me, but does anyone know why when you pick an item up sometimes the other loose items around it just move by themselves?

In Bison Steve for example, if I find the bathtub with the skeleton, picking up any of the whiskey or chems nearby will cause said skeleton to literally leap out of the tub! Weird.

I'm assuming that you're looking for a more detailed answer than "it's a glitch in the physics engine"?

[Haruspex_Pariah]

I'm assuming that you're looking for a more detailed answer than "it's a glitch in the physics engine"?

If possible, yes. It rarely affects gameplay, but once in a while loose items get knocked out of sight/reach which is annoying.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

If possible, yes. It rarely affects gameplay, but once in a while loose items get knocked out of sight/reach which is annoying.

You can think of it as a Block Update effect from Minecraft in a way.

Basically, when something is spawned in the world, they don't automatically get affected by physics. This is especially the case for 'set pieces', such as the bottle pyramid on the bridge over the entrance to the building outside of NOVAC for the quest 'Come Fly With Me'. The devs very carefully placed things down to look nice, but they couldn't be exactly exact, so there's little gaps unnoticeable by the player.

When you move something nearby, however, they go 'hey, something moved nearby, should I react to this?', and realizes 'oh, the physics engine says I should probably settle into place', and thus everything tumbles down.

[GloatingSwine]

It's existed as a problem with Gamebryo's physics since Morrowind, and I'm pretty sure it still happens in Fallout 4.

[Triaxx]

Wait... Morrowind had Physics?

Also, yeah, physics works fine as long as it doesn't get reminded it exists. Then it freaks out.

[Rodin]

Wait... Morrowind had Physics?

I don't think it did. Morrowind predates Half-Life 2, the first game that I'm certain had fully realized object physics. It was a big selling point of Half-Life 2, in fact.

Oblivion came out a couple years later, and was the first Elder Scrolls game to have a "manipulate" button that allowed you to carry an object in hand without picking it up and sticking it in your inventory. This was both to show off the shiny new physics engine and to allow you to decorate your player's home.

[GloatingSwine]

Wait... Morrowind had Physics?

Also, yeah, physics works fine as long as it doesn't get reminded it exists. Then it freaks out.

Yes, but your interaction with them is more limited. You can't drag objects around, but it has basic physics for things falling when you or other things drop them or when things die. And that causes the same bug where picking up one object scatters all the ones around it on occasion (including the one where they drop through the surface they're supposed to be on).

[Triaxx]

Ah, that makes sense. I was never able to bump things so I assumed stuff was static.

[Cikomyr]

So I just started playing with Sim Settlement. I like it, it minimizes the amount of micromanaging to have nice towns, and I end up building massive scaffolding structure to house dozens of houses in the air.

It feel like Dwarf Fortress. Tee hee

So, I noticed Industrial and Commercial plots built almost instantly. However, nobody has claimed any residential plot yet. Is it normal?

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Well I guess there's no way around it then. I suppose when picking up loose items I should take the thing that I really want first.

Also, because my current playthrough is a no-companion run, I put the radio on so I can be "accompanied" by Mr New Vegas.

This means I'm hearing some lines for the first time, and some of them are pretty fun. No-Bark's "interview" for example. Too bad the content cycles if you leave it on for too long, but that's inevitable I guess.

EDIT: One of the minor gripes I have with New Vegas is the quest ED-E My Love. WTF is there a five-day wait between triggers. I legit wasted a trigger one time because I wasn't aware of the stipulation. What possible function does that serve?

[Balmas]

Something has been bothering me for years about New Vegas so I better ask now before I forget again.

I know this doesn’t just happen to me, but does anyone know why when you pick an item up sometimes the other loose items around it just move by themselves?

In Bison Steve for example, if I find the bathtub with the skeleton, picking up any of the whiskey or chems nearby will cause said skeleton to literally leap out of the tub! Weird.

It has to do with the collision meshes of the objects, I believe. Generally, the collision meshes are slighly larger than the actual object, so when the game developers place the items on the shelf, the collision meshes are actually slightly overlapping. When you pick up an item, all the items around it update and go, "oh, huh, we're inside the shelf right now, and that's not right. Quick, either pop up fully on top of the shelf, or phase through it to go underneath."

It's why one of my must-have mods for New Vegas is just something called Collision Meshes FNV, which overhauls the collision meshes of most items in the game to more closely match the items in the game. Ever since I installed it, I've had far fewer items dropping through medical trays, and so on.

[The_Jackal]

It has to do with the collision meshes of the objects, I believe. Generally, the collision meshes are slighly larger than the actual object, so when the game developers place the items on the shelf, the collision meshes are actually slightly overlapping. When you pick up an item, all the items around it update and go, "oh, huh, we're inside the shelf right now, and that's not right. Quick, either pop up fully on top of the shelf, or phase through it to go underneath."

It's why one of my must-have mods for New Vegas is just something called Collision Meshes FNV, which overhauls the collision meshes of most items in the game to more closely match the items in the game. Ever since I installed it, I've had far fewer items dropping through medical trays, and so on.

It's just a long-standing bug with Gamebryo's physics engine, and tends to be aggravated by uncapping your framerate. It's the same reason you can kill yourself in Skyrim if you step on a rake wrong. It's one of the many reasons many people (myself included) have clamored for a game engine change for Bethesda's games.

[Balmas]

It's just a long-standing bug with Gamebryo's physics engine, and tends to be aggravated by uncapping your framerate. It's the same reason you can kill yourself in Skyrim if you step on a rake wrong. It's one of the many reasons many people (myself included) have clamored for a game engine change for Bethesda's games.

I thought physics in Fallout Scrolls was handled by the Havoks engine, which is licensed to Bethesda. Would updating to a different engine than Gamebryo/Creation really do anything if they're still using Havoks to handle phsysics?

[The_Jackal]

I thought physics in Fallout Scrolls was handled by the Havoks engine, which is licensed to Bethesda. Would updating to a different engine than Gamebryo/Creation really do anything if they're still using Havoks to handle phsysics?

I'm really not certain what the underlying math driving the problem is, save that raising your framerate above the pre-set framerate makes it wildly worse, to the point where you can walk over a Draugr sword on the floor when you're running at like 100 frames per second, and the sword will fling around the room at ludicrous speed, ricocheting off the wall and killing you. Ask me how I know.

[Spore]

I am no programmer in the slightest but at first glance this sounds like a bug that could've been easily programmed out by not linking item velocity and damage. But then again, I have read that World of Warcraft cannot edit the size of its backpack to be bigger because about half the game's quests links to check the backpack's "squares" for quest items, thus making quests impossible to do once you relocated a quest item.

The problem looks easy to solve on paper.

you can walk over a Draugr sword on the floor when you're running at like 100 frames per second, and the sword will fling around the room at ludicrous speed, ricocheting off the wall and killing you.

I think skeletons (ribcages specifically) are my number 2 reason of dying in Skyrim, second only to falling damage. Enemies take a measly third place.

[factotum]

Just to point out here, technically Bethesda hasn't been using Gamebryo since 2011--they use the Creation Engine, which is based on Gamebryo but with a lot of their own code in it. In fact, that might be the issue--the physics glitches in Skyrim are legendary, but the ones in Oblivion not so much, suggesting it's the Creation Engine at fault and not Gamebryo.

[DigoDragon]

I think skeletons (ribcages specifically) are my number 2 reason of dying in Skyrim, second only to falling damage. Enemies take a measly third place.

My favorite death to date was me trying to ride my hose down some stairs and we both got flung into low planetary orbit.

[GloatingSwine]

Just to point out here, technically Bethesda hasn't been using Gamebryo since 2011--they use the Creation Engine, which is based on Gamebryo but with a lot of their own code in it. In fact, that might be the issue--the physics glitches in Skyrim are legendary, but the ones in Oblivion not so much, suggesting it's the Creation Engine at fault and not Gamebryo.

Bethesda might have hung ever more kibble on the outsides and changed the name, but we're not fooled. There's underlying tech in the engine that's always been the same (especially about cell loading).

Oblivion (and Fallout 3) had comedy physics bugs, but far fewer people bought it and it was much harder to record and share the silliness when it happened.

[The_Jackal]

Bethesda might have hung ever more kibble on the outsides and changed the name, but we're not fooled. There's underlying tech in the engine that's always been the same (especially about cell loading).

Oblivion (and Fallout 3) had comedy physics bugs, but far fewer people bought it and it was much harder to record and share the silliness when it happened.

Yeah, Gamebryo is still under there, a name-change isn't going to fix that.

What makes it all especially irritating is that their parent company, Zenimax Media, has owned Id Software since 2009, so there is really no reason they couldn't have been using IdTech engines for all their games. I wouldn't help some of their more regrettable art direction, but it could certainly improve the performance and bug problems.

[halfeye]

Yeah, Gamebryo is still under there, a name-change isn't going to fix that.

What makes it all especially irritating is that their parent company, Zenimax Media, has owned Id Software since 2009, so there is really no reason they couldn't have been using IdTech engines for all their games. I wouldn't help some of their more regrettable art direction, but it could certainly improve the performance and bug problems.

I thought Carmack left Id to play with rockets (for which, much kudos to him).

[factotum]

I thought Carmack left Id to play with rockets (for which, much kudos to him).

What does that have to do with ID software's engine? The company still exists and it still produces game engines--see Rage and Rage 2 for examples. Which exactly go to show that Bethesda using that engine wouldn't necessarily fix the issues, because Rage was a serious bug-fest when it first launched.

[veti]

I'm really not certain what the underlying math driving the problem is, save that raising your framerate above the pre-set framerate makes it wildly worse, to the point where you can walk over a Draugr sword on the floor when you're running at like 100 frames per second, and the sword will fling around the room at ludicrous speed, ricocheting off the wall and killing you. Ask me how I know.

Just guessing here...

While "falling" is normally modelled with reasonable physics, when something only has a very short drop, the engine doesn't bother about gravity and acceleration and stuff - it just moves instantly, in a single frame.

Unfortunately, when that single frame is very quick, that means it's imparted a heck of a lot of momentum, and energy, to the thing. Which the physics engine picks up on, and turns it into a lethal missile. Since the engine was never tested above around 50 fps (because seriously, why?) - this was never identified as a bug.

[halfeye]

What does that have to do with ID software's engine? The company still exists and it still produces game engines--see Rage and Rage 2 for examples. Which exactly go to show that Bethesda using that engine wouldn't necessarily fix the issues, because Rage was a serious bug-fest when it first launched.

He was the lead writer on the first iteration, and it didn't have many bugs. His code is said to be legible and good. Then he left, now it's buggy, that might not be a pure coincidence.

[Cikomyr]

Hey guys. So I managed to figure out plot assignment in Sim Settlement.

I started using the City Planner. It's pretty cool, love that a nice premade city just builds itself. However, I now have about 40 quest tags of "New construction" in my settlements. Anyone knows how I remove them?

[The_Jackal]

I thought Carmack left Id to play with rockets (for which, much kudos to him).

Yes, he did, but just because the original software architect isn't merging pull requests anymore doesn't necessarily mean the project is dead. Id-Tech hasn't been exclusively written by John Carmack since the 1990's.