3.P - Earth Glide Dysfunction?

[loky1109]

Even though I dislike the RC with a passion, it at least explains how this scenario is supposed to work:



Type immunity is a general rule about monsters and the description of earth glide takes precedence over that. The earth glide spell is not a monster based rule, it's a spell. There is no exception because of that distinction.

It's possible to say Earth glide is more general, because it's not unique Earth elemental's ability as like, for example, Improved grab or gaze attack.
And elemental immunities have precedence.

[Darg]

It's possible to say Earth glide is more general, because it's not unique Earth elemental's ability as like, for example, Improved grab or gaze attack.
And elemental immunities have precedence.

You're focusing too much on the earth glide vs immunity instead of focusing on what the game is actually telling you: a monster's description has precedence over a more general rule about monters, i.e. creature type. If you start zooming in far enough to isolate bits and pieces there are a lot of places where the game just falls apart. The game just isn't meant to be parsed on such a minute level.

[loky1109]

You're focusing too much on the earth glide vs immunity instead of focusing on what the game is actually telling you: a monster's description has precedence over a more general rule about monters, i.e. creature type. If you start zooming in far enough to isolate bits and pieces there are a lot of places where the game just falls apart. The game just isn't meant to be parsed on such a minute level.

One more time. You are looking from perspective where it was all good and clear, and authors don't make stupid mistakes. I'm staying on the ground where they make mistakes every book. And this looks like one of those mistakes.
Yeah, your way to read is right. If written is correct. My point is: it highly likely isn't.

[lesser_minion]

One more time. You are looking from perspective where it was all good and clear, and authors don't make stupid mistakes. I'm staying on the ground where they make mistakes every book. And this looks like one of those mistakes.
Yeah, your way to read is right. If written is correct. My point is: it highly likely isn't.

The fact that they didn't include the text "...despite normally being immune" or similar is a mistake despite that text being redundant. Rules are supposed to be clear. They aren't supposed to spawn multi-page forum threads or need rules on how to read the rules.

[ShurikVch]

One more moment: in the Libris Mortis, sample creature for Necromental template is Large Earth Necromental
Just like living Earth Elemental, it have Earth Glide too
Question: should it still be stunned by Move Earth - considering its both Undead (and thus - immune to stunning as the Type Trait) and have "Con —" (which mean immunity to effects which allow Fort save but don't affect objects)?

[Darg]

One more moment: in the Libris Mortis, sample creature for Necromental template is Large Earth Necromental
Just like living Earth Elemental, it have Earth Glide too
Question: should it still be stunned by Move Earth - considering its both Undead (and thus - immune to stunning as the Type Trait) and have "Con —" (which mean immunity to effects which allow Fort save but don't affect objects)?

If the monster description says it is stunned, it's stunned. It still has a +8 fort save.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If the monster description says it is stunned, it's stunned. It still has a +8 fort save.

And it also says it's an elemental, which is immune.

[JNAProductions]

And it also says it's an elemental, which is immune.

Which is the general rule.
The specific rule says an Earth Elemental gets stunned.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Which is the general rule.
The specific rule says an Earth Elemental gets stunned.

Which is why it's a dysfunction, because it's still immune, so that bit doesn't work.

[Chronos]

No, it's not immune to that specific stunning, because it says it isn't.

[loky1109]

Which is the general rule.
The specific rule says an Earth Elemental gets stunned.

I still think Earth glide could be more general than elemental traits.

[Darg]

I still think Earth glide could be more general than elemental traits.

An official source already quoted in this thread says otherwise.

[Crake]

I still think Earth glide could be more general than elemental traits.

An earth elemental's earth glide specifically is more specific than the elemental's type traits. It's not a generic ability that is referenced, it is a specific ability described uniquely in the elemental's statblock. It is written specifically for the earth elemental, and specifically references the elemental getting stunned, ergo, it is more specific than the general rule of elementals being immune to stuns.

[noce]

I know the thread talks about another dysfunction of Earth Glide, but there's more about it.

I played a character with Earth Glide, and was bothered by the fact that Earth Glide doesn't provide any special sense to see through stone.
RAW, even Earth Elementals are completely blind while burrowing.

[Crake]

I know the thread talks about another dysfunction of Earth Glide, but there's more about it.

I played a character with Earth Glide, and was bothered by the fact that Earth Glide doesn't provide any special sense to see through stone.
RAW, even Earth Elementals are completely blind while burrowing.

I dont see how thats a dysfunction? You cant see through solid rock, seems to be working as intended

[loky1109]

An earth elemental's earth glide specifically is more specific than the elemental's type traits. It's not a generic ability that is referenced, it is a specific ability described uniquely in the elemental's statblock. It is written specifically for the earth elemental, and specifically references the elemental getting stunned, ergo, it is more specific than the general rule of elementals being immune to stuns.

Still disagree. It isn't clear specific ability described uniquely in the elemental's statblock in my eyes. Not more than some improved grab or swallow whole. There are some doubts. And big doubt about authors' intention. Maybe even two mistakes which together finally make all works as intended are here. Accidentally.

I agree rules as is highly likely (not 100% still) are working in your way. But my point this way (specific beats general) is disfunctional itself without clear hierarchy. If reader should make decisions about hierarchy by himself something went wrong.

[Tzardok]

I dont see how thats a dysfunction? You cant see through solid rock, seems to be working as intended

It may not be a rules dysfunction, but it still is problematic. The earth elemental possesses no Tremorsense, nor ability to see through stone, nor any other sensory abilities beyond darkvision. Its ability to notice other creatures from within earth is limited to ... Listen checks. And that could be enough if it only hid in walls or something like that, but earth elementals are native to the Plane of Elemental Earth, which is an infinite expanse of rock and earth with a few small air pockets. An earth elemental in its home as written spends its time floating around blindly through infinite rock, with no ability to orient itself, no way to perceive its surroundings, no way to notice anything except if it bumps into a metal vein or another creature, unless it finds an air pocket.

From an ecological standpoint alone, earth elementals should have the Earthsight ability or something similiar.

[Darg]

It may not be a rules dysfunction, but it still is problematic. The earth elemental possesses no Tremorsense, nor ability to see through stone, nor any other sensory abilities beyond darkvision. Its ability to notice other creatures from within earth is limited to ... Listen checks. And that could be enough if it only hid in walls or something like that, but earth elementals are native to the Plane of Elemental Earth, which is an infinite expanse of rock and earth with a few small air pockets. An earth elemental in its home as written spends its time floating around blindly through infinite rock, with no ability to orient itself, no way to perceive its surroundings, no way to notice anything except if it bumps into a metal vein or another creature, unless it finds an air pocket.

From an ecological standpoint alone, earth elementals should have the Earthsight ability or something similiar.

Logically you can't see through fire either. Given enough distance light would fail to penetrate through the minor oscillations caused by moving pure water. Not to mention the plane of water has a lot of ice too. I don't see the problem with elementals that don't need to eat, breath, or drink and are basically immortal mimicking the element they embody.

[Tzardok]

The Elemental Plane of Water explicitely has sourceless ambient light that is more or less the same everywhere. Also, darkvision works under water, so that is not the same. The description of Elemental Fire is also written in a way that people can see there under most circumstances. It's only earth elementals that suffer from that problem.

Also, elementals have societies where they interact with each other. Those are mentioned only at the side in 3.x sources, but 2e went a lot deeper into it. Elementals may not age or eat or sleep, so their societies are alien, but they build, trade and philosophize. And that requires actually being able to perceive each other.

[Darg]

The Elemental Plane of Water explicitely has sourceless ambient light that is more or less the same everywhere. Also, darkvision works under water, so that is not the same. The description of Elemental Fire is also written in a way that people can see there under most circumstances. It's only earth elementals that suffer from that problem.

Also, elementals have societies where they interact with each other. Those are mentioned only at the side in 3.x sources, but 2e went a lot deeper into it. Elementals may not age or eat or sleep, so their societies are alien, but they build, trade and philosophize. And that requires actually being able to perceive each other.

It's as dysfunctional as skeletons being able to see and hear and nobody seems to question that.

It's easy enough to argue that they have the ability to see and communicate through the environment that they live in. It doesn't necessarily need to be an Ex, Sp, Su ability to do so. Rather an unnamed natural ability just like how humanoids don't have a "voice" ability in their stat block.

[Chronos]

There's a rule somewhere that, by default, creatures are assumed to have human-like senses, unless otherwise specified, even if the mechanism for those senses is different. So skeletons can see and hear about as well as humans, despite not actually having eyes or ears. But it's not a rule that all creatures can, by default, perceive their natural environment.

[Darg]

There's a rule somewhere that, by default, creatures are assumed to have human-like senses, unless otherwise specified, even if the mechanism for those senses is different. So skeletons can see and hear about as well as humans, despite not actually having eyes or ears. But it's not a rule that all creatures can, by default, perceive their natural environment.

A sage advice column in dragon magazine mentions that for all 5 senses, but I don't think it's ever stated in a book (maybe libris mortis does for undead but I'd need to find my copy). Though, it's really nice to know that D&D ants have sight.