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2008-09-22, 09:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 123, The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 111
In an absence of foreshadowing, predicting what turns the plot is going to take is like predicting the price of gold ten years out. Pick your favorite euphemism for guesswork. All I ever do is announce what I would do with the plot from that point on, based on my evaluation of what details are important and what would be most entertaining. If my daydreaming happens to coincide with the author's I find it slightly disappointing that they were so predictable.
That being said, some things are truly predictable. Some tropes are so thoroughly ingrained in our psyches that it is hard to even imagine how to subvert them. The "explains plans" trope is a good example. Unless the plans themselves are extremely interesting (like the details of Ansom's defense) there is no way they could come off without a hitch. Stanley going to Faq is about as boring as it gets unless something tries to interfere with him, so it's a sure bet that something important is going to happen on the way if Stanley is to remain an important character in this story. Extrapolation from there is less confined.
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2008-09-22, 10:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 123, The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 111
If anyone's watched the Speed Racer film, there's this part where the villain talks about what he'll do to Speed at his next race if he doesn't join up while it's being shown on-screen. Later, it turns out that this is exactly what happens in "reality". The moral of the story is that if the plan is explained while it's coming to fruition, it WILL come to fruition, period.
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2008-09-22, 10:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 123, The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 111
Actually, if you look again over the relevent pages, it was when they stopped moving that Stanley had Jack activate the veil. There is nothing to imply that they were moving on the pages they were at. Each veil was at the end of his turn. It was a veil that would not fool anyone but it was still a veil, which is why Stanley did not tell him to break it. Once dawn came Jack lowered the veil and they started moving again. You don't generally veil (you probably can but it's not as effective) until you are finished moving and there are no enemy units in your hex. The primary function of the veil is to hide when your group cannot move and it is the enemy's turn.
Stanley will only call for a veil at the end of his turn, if he feels he needs it, not before (unless one can somehow help in the ambush, not enough information on that). There is no doubt to a person that carefully reads the story.
Last edited by tomaO2; 2008-09-22 at 11:26 PM.
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2008-09-22, 10:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 123, The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 111
Charming. Do you act this way in real life, too, when there isn't the buffer of a keyboard and screen to hide behind?
You're not the only one to float certain theories (like how veiling works), and just because other people have theories -- which they often label as implausible in advance -- that ultimately turn out to be wrong, doesn't mean you're suddenly the arbiter of TRVTH.
And by the way, you're still the one who was and still is somewhat convinced that Parson is stupid based solely on one failed gambit with dwagons. Well guess what: you're wrong about that.Last edited by headhoncho; 2008-09-22 at 10:46 PM.
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2008-09-22, 10:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 123, The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 111
You replied fast.
I actually deleted that particular remark because I thought it was unnecessary. Deleted that really quick too. I generally post things then edit them for awhile after they are up until I get them right (I use preview as well but you think something looks okay and keep changing your mind...). The comment was wrongheaded. Your saving it though, so I guess I'm stuck with having said it. I'm sorry Steve. It was a moment of pique. I still say you are wrong though and I am 100% certain of it. I can put my credibility to predict the plot on the line for this statement. "veiling is primarily for the end of turn when you stop moving, not when you're in transit". There was never any intention of trying to veil his way though the pass so that no one could ambush him (although is is possible that some version of the veil could help Stanley get through). It's when Stanley's turn ends that the problem for Ansom's team begins.
Anyway, I never once said Parson was stupid. What I thought was Pclips was doing some bad writing because Parson was smarter then that. However, I did change my mind after looking at the evidence more carefully. Still not the best move from what I can see but not boneheadedly dumb, as I used to think. I didn't need anyone to point out the evidence to me because I am capable of looking at all the evidence. I figured out things no one else bothered to. I deflated my own arguments. So I guess I was "right" in that too.
I work with what is given in the story, I don't make things up out of thin air. Truth is truth and not what you create for yourself. I am no arbitrator. I'm simply better at recognizing it then most of the other posters and I am putting my money (metaphorically) where my mouth is. If I am wrong with any of my predictions, just one of what I have stated firmly as being correct (unless something comes along to foreshadow a different answer, such as with Wanda being the predictamancer. I am only correct, unless the evidence changes but I will know before the story leaves no doubt), then I accept that I don't have a firm grasp on things and am not as good at reading the story as I thought I was.
We shall see how it goes.Last edited by tomaO2; 2008-09-22 at 11:17 PM.
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2008-09-22, 11:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 123, The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 111
Hmmm... looking at those examples, I think you're right: Stanley does appear to have been casting the veil after moving (but still during his own turn; you can't do it on on the enemy's turn).
However, I infer that units can move while under veil, or else Caesar Borgata wouldn't have been concerned about looking for a veiled stack. Caesar is with a task force that's waiting at the choke point, and if Stanley shows up, under veil or otherwise, it will be because Stanley moved into the hex.
Perhaps Stanley couldn't stay veiled all the time even if the Foolamancer had been functioning normally. If so, it would make sense to veil during the other side's turn while making his way toward the choke point (he'd be most vulnerable if the other side ran into him during their turn, since he wouldn't be able to retreat -- if he ran into an overly powerful enemy force during his own turn he could break off). Once at the choke point, he'd need to veil on his own move (if the enemy is at the choke point, he has to either sneak past them, fight his way through them, or give up on reaching Faq). If so, the fact that Stanley's units don't have either a real veil or another goofy failed veil in place means either that he either gave up trying or the Foolamancer tried and it fizzled totally.
EDIT: IMO, the "he gave up trying" option best fits Stanley's established moody personality and his regretful tone with the Foolamancer just before they reached the choke point.Last edited by SteveMB; 2008-09-22 at 11:27 PM.
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2008-09-22, 11:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 123, The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 111
Good catch. I forgot that quote. Changes nothing I have been saying though.
However, I infer that units can move while under veil, or else Caesar Borgata wouldn't have been concerned about looking for a veiled stack. Caesar is with a task force that's waiting at the choke point, and if Stanley shows up, under veil or otherwise, it will be because Stanley moved into the hex.
Okay, for the last time in this thread.
The trap would have worked with Charlie onboard. With Charlie gone, they still think they can kill Stanley (or else they would not even try). However, as I see it, they have to do so on a finesse. The trap won't (or I should say, very probably won't) work but they can BLEED Stanley here. After they do and Stanley punches through the hex, the new plan is for them to wait for their next turn, heal up, search for Stanley (he can't get away too far) and kill him while his remaining troups are still injured. In order for this to be a resonable plan, Stanley cannot be able to resurect FAQ on this turn which is why I have stated it as being impossible.
The problem is, if Stanley has a Foolmancer, he can activate it at the end of his turn, just as he has been doing the past 2 turns. What Vinny is talking about is that they got a bunch of warlords looking on their turn and during their turn, with so many warlord eyes (bats are clearly unable see veiled units) looking they are almost certain to find him even if Stanley DOES have one.
So, last time. There was no way to avoid the ambush through Foolmancy, that was always a given. What matters is what happens after Stanley punches through. This is when the Foolmancer becomes the biggest problem for the Vamps (it might also help also with punching through, that's unknowable).Last edited by tomaO2; 2008-09-23 at 12:18 AM.
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2008-09-23, 01:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 123, The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 111
Such an amusing analogy because, like the plot of Erfworld, which has a great deal of foreshadowing, gold prices were/are certainly predictable, in a genral sense at least. At least gold action is knowable to someone with a firm understanding of the fundementals and a background of austrian economics, which is the economics of truth, unlike the keynesian, inflate until we die, style to familiar to most people.
Not saying I understood it back then but my investment broker did. He coaxed me into gold and commodities over the years. I finally stated investing right after 9/11 and kept growing my position since. Done rather well too. When the comodities pulled back this year my gurus said buy and the prices hare rebounded. They said all so many things and have been right consitantly on the genreal treand. Here is a fun prediction. Gold will be 1650$ sometime before 2012. This was a prediction made way back over 5 years ago.
If your interested in a guy that understands the larger economical trend of gold, go to Jim Sinclair's website. He also called the top (and by top, I mean he called it the exact day it topped and sold for massive profits) in the last gold run up in the 70's.
I'd also try going here the podcasts on this website have the wisdom of a man that has been getting it right for a long time now and is sharing his wisdom to anyone that wishes to listen. The financial "experts" on TV generally don't know what's going on. They didn't predict the housing bubble or the tech one (my guys did), yet somehow they think they know we are in a commodity bubble? I think not. It's a bull market and it's ongoing.
Trends are predicable (though the specifics can and will suprise), you just need the right tools of understanding.
Also, the main reason I hated the dwagon doughnut trap failing is because it broke a trope for me. It still makes me mad looking at it. They already establish insurmountable odds and then they go and make it more unwinabble? Hated that moment.Last edited by tomaO2; 2008-09-23 at 02:04 AM.
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2008-09-23, 02:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 123, The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 111
...
Are we still on the Erfworld forum? I'd like to buy a space for a personal AD. I've an old Buck, still working good, so...
How do you stick this with your running puntualization that the authors are never, ever going to try to surprise the audience? Looks like they did, and nothing say they are not going to do again.
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2008-09-23, 03:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 123, The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 111
{Scrubbed}
Last edited by Roland St. Jude; 2008-09-23 at 09:31 PM.
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2008-09-23, 04:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 123, The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 111
"The nicest evil guy you'll ever meet."
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2008-09-23, 05:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 123, The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 111
He asks "Are we s'posta be lookin for a veiled stack?!" I think it's clear that he's referring to their current mission (sitting at the choke point waiting for Stanley to arrive) -- ergo, he thinks (now that somebody got around to sharing this bit of intel with him) it's possible that Stanley might be on the move under veil.
EDIT: Also, when Vinny expresses confidence that they'll find Stanley, veil or no veil, he references their estimate of his current number of units (without any attempt to account for the presumably reduced number he'd have left after a breakout).Last edited by SteveMB; 2008-09-23 at 05:29 AM.
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2008-09-23, 06:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 123, The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 111
Toma02 did you not pay any attention at all to what i said in reply to your earlier post? I'd happily pay $100 for a ruling on if a stack can move veiled just to put an end to an argument that is based on crazy logic.
Actually scratch that...I have the sneaking suspicion youd still argue about it >_<
I think that the Dragon Donut failing (infact any strategy used by Parson) is foreshadowed because right from the beginning Parson wasnt the 'Ultimate Warlord' they were expecting.. he lacked knowledge about the world in general which would lead to mistakes AND even the greatest strategic mind can be hampered by the forces at their disposal.... to top that Parson is not in total control of the situation as hes bound serve Stanley.
Frankly the story would have been boring if Parson won every single engagement. Winning the war is more important then winning the battle, this is where everyone is expecting Parson to shine.Last edited by MattR; 2008-09-23 at 06:48 AM.
GENERATION 19: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig and add 1 to the generation. This is a social experiment.
''Never argue with idiots, they'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.''
''Common sense is very uncommon.''
''It ain't sin if you crack a few laws now and then, just so long as you don't break any.''
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2008-09-23, 08:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 123, The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 111
Nice to see the spidews again. At least they have a role in a castle seige, didn't think they'd get to partake of the sweet, gooey-crunchy marbit treats.
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2008-09-23, 09:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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2008-09-23, 09:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 123, The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 111
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2008-09-23, 09:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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2008-09-23, 09:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 123, The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 111
I love this strip!!!
My Freelance Writing Page
Check out the Free Planet for Traveller in Signs and Portents 64
No Hamster Can Stop Me -Prince Ansom
D McCoy 1693
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2008-09-23, 09:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 123, The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 111
Veiling seems to be countered by commanders. Faq was resilient against detection, because noone was really looking. Stanley can't really expect to get the same treatment, since the coalition knows he is heading there.
Then again, there is no prof that he knew, they knew where he was heading. It could have been a sound plan, which no longer is valid, since Jillian told everyone where to find him.
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2008-09-23, 09:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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2008-09-23, 09:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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2008-09-23, 09:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 123, The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 111
cough cough rules lawyering cough cough...
You lost me there. If it were as you say then a stack with a warlord could cross any enemy hex at will since the enemy could not initiate combat.
Wanda attacked Jillian initiating combat outside of her turn.Last edited by teratorn; 2008-09-23 at 09:58 AM.
Avatar: ruthless Parson (Erfworld).
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2008-09-23, 09:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 123, The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 111
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2008-09-23, 10:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 123, The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 111
Parson talked to Misty only about moving outside of turn. See this strip. (Again, I was nitpicking while violently agreeing with Richbin's main premise about moving or fighting at night.) I am NOT making any claims other than that, and specifically reject the idea that warlord-led stacks are immune to combat.
And as far as Wanda attacking Jillian, we're probably in a bit of a semantic tangle. I would define 'initiating combat' as moving into a hex with enemy troops, whether or not you choose to shoot. So at Efdup Tower, Jillian clearly initiated the combat, by moving into the GK airspace. Both Jillian and Wanda have discretion as to whether or not to start shooting. Jillian chose to hold fire, Wanda didn't. All legit.
The same thing happened over the lake when Parson ordered Manpower et al to avoid combat, while hoping Jillian was subject to Wanda's loyalty spell and would just leave. That time, Jillian initiated the combat by moving into Parson's stack, and chose to open fire first.Last edited by CaptC; 2008-09-23 at 10:30 AM.
Dibs on his dice.
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2008-09-23, 10:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 123, The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 111
Parson is a unit, too, so he can't move or initiate combat or open fire at night. I would be very disappointed if he can cheat other than by finding a cheat code, which is arguably not cheating anyway.
I won't deliberately break the rules of any game when playing a flesh and blood opponent, but if a computer program lets me do something through an unmodified interface, it's not cheating IMHO.Dibs on his dice.
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2008-09-23, 10:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 123, The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 111
Actually, Parson did help their cause, and also established that he was not an easy I WIN button. in additio to which, the Doughnut served multiple OTHER purposes - Breaking Wanda's hold on Jillian, exposing her humanity. It also served to shove Stanley out the door so that Parson could shine on his own and set up the rest of the strip.
The box of Lucky Charms states that it took five turns to make Parson into the perfect Warlord after Wanda booped the spell up. (Now if I were a frentetically shaking speculative tree, I might postulate that Wanda did so on purpose, under the effect of a counter-suggestion spell from Jillian or Charley, but I shan't (;P), as I am not a betting man).
Besides, in many literary sagas you have to have the protagonist fail, to show how dark things have become, and then to have Stanley apparently abandon them, taking the dwagons, makes it quite perceivably 'unwinnable'.
Why is it you feel that they had made the situation clearly unwinnable BEFORE the doughnut move? Had the failure not occurred, the comic would have been over - no siege? Well then no tactial Battle for Gobwin Knob. They would have had to atttack through the tunnels (air? against a full flight of dwagons? Shya right... Walls? Oh wait, no siege) which would have been a meat-grinder from hell at best.
Sizemore, Wanda and Jack, working in concert... brrrr....
So actually, permit me to say that I enjoy the way the authors have presented this strip - had the donut fail to split the storytelling up into multiple locations, only to have them re=-converge at the end (I would hope).
It provides a richer panoply by introducing more places and characters.
FAQ becomes a present concern, not only a past one.
Transylvito is placed on the map, not just as background locale, but with Don King no less...
The table/link between the casters is severed, introducing some pathos (this is boopin hard core), and personality (fatigue has threatenned to become a factor - I bet it has), and personal loss (Whhyyy? - You went too far), as well as personality growth (who's going to save him? I am).
Many moments that were set up by the doughnut were magnificent.
A disappointment? Perhaps initially, but its' payoff has been in the well-nigh endless returns.
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2008-09-23, 11:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 123, The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 111
First, a trope is a common theme or convention, nothing more, nothing less. Some of the best writers are specifically UNconventional, and defy the standard tropes either often or occasionally.
Second, tropes are often CRITICIZED because they are far too predictable and mundane.
Third, the event actually ESTABLISHED certain OTHER tropes, as an earlier poster (Richbin here, and others elsewhere) noted.
It was a reasonable gamble. It showed Parson's innovative nature and that he's willing to take a calculated risk. It showed he was willing to listen to advisers, particularly when he's still groping for the rules while in the middle of a crisis situation. And it set up not only the various character developments noted in an earlier post, it also sets up an even more climactic finish where Parson gets to -- very reasonably and plausibly, so far -- demonstrate even MORE superiority, that he is indeed the perfect warlord.
It's a win situation all around, IMO. The Rebels in Star Wars were horribly outmatched, too, and yet The Empire Strikes Back was certainly a low point for them in the series. If you want a trope, that's the one to compare the dwagon donut gambit to, IMO.Last edited by headhoncho; 2008-09-23 at 11:25 AM.
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2008-09-23, 11:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 123, The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 111
I do not beleive that Archons have to be sleeping and prone, the same way that Dwagons can remain 'aflight' at night, so too might they be able to remain 'floating', which would require Parson become a flying/mounted unit (uncroaked unipegataur?)
BUT let me say that I would welcome such a 'cheat', as not all rules apply to him - he does not expend move when travelling, only gets 'fatigued'.
UNITS cannot move at night, but Parson is 'Special', and might have a special exemption. Although this would be borderline exploit, I could see Parson challenging Ansom 'mano-a-mano' at then end of Ansom's turn (after he has hopefully been wounded), to take him out before he has had a chance to heal, having been attacked by Wanda et al...
Oh, I guess with lines like "Chicken?" , this might well be sufficient... :)
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2008-09-23, 12:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 123, The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 111
Back to the choke-point...
who's gonna win: a leather-clad barbershopchoir doing some doowop or a hardrockin' quartet playing Thunderdragondeathmetal?
Even though I prefer doowop over metal mostly, I'd go with the latter rather than the former... Yeah, both use falsetto, but the backing of metal is way more powerfull than the voice-imitates-an-instrument of doowop... ;)Please buy my lo-fi mini-album at:
http://www.musicfan.fm/beechcraftbonanza
Chaos Farts on your Face Phase, Warhammer, tales of the Oldskool
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2008-09-23, 12:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 123, The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 111