Shadow Magic

[Enguhl]

So I just picked up Tome of Magic, its pretty sweet. When I opened it I thought "Huh, Binders, they look pretty cool." Then I saw Trunamers and thought "These would be cool if (so people on the forums say, haven't read into it much) they didn't fail at life at level 20."
Then I flipped to the shadow magic section...
Mmmm...
So with my growing interest (just put down the book to ask), what are some pros/cons about shadow magic? I would like to play one and want to know some opinions. Also what you think some of the awesome abilities are.
Note: I am not looking for builds, just whats good and bad, limitations, whether or not certain spells are as good as they seem, etc.

[Kizara]

From what I've seen at the table, early game shadowcasters are like underpowered warlocks.

They can do some interesting things, but not one's that are terribly useful and not many things. Also, unlike lock's, they can't do their things many times a day.

Should give you an idea...

[Dhavaer]

I'd say Shadowcasters are the opposite side of the coin to Warlocks; they get a few effects that are quite powerful, but can only use them a handful of times a day.

They get decent skills and not bad hp for what is basically a caster. They get some nice abilities, and a few bonus feats. They can cast in armour. If you take multiple Arrow of Dusk fundamentals and don't run into too many thing immune to subdual damage, you should be able to survive until you get some decent offence.

They aren't very customiseable, however; most of their mysteries are so weak that taking them is a death sentence. If you don't take Still Mystery, you're pretty much dead.

[Kizara]

I'd say Shadowcasters are the opposite side of the coin to Warlocks; they get a few effects that are quite powerful, but can only use them a handful of times a day.

They get decent skills and not bad hp for what is basically a caster. They get some nice abilities, and a few bonus feats. They can cast in armour. If you take multiple Arrow of Dusk fundamentals and don't run into too many thing immune to subdual damage, you should be able to survive until you get some decent offence.

They aren't very customiseable, however; most of their mysteries are so weak that taking them is a death sentence. If you don't take Still Mystery, you're pretty much dead.

So, in your opinion, what are the few good mysteries and what are the junk/your dead ones?

[Dhavaer]

So, in your opinion, what are the few good mysteries and what are the junk/your dead ones?

Shadows and Clouds for the most part. Cloak of Shadows if you're playing a full Shadowcaster, although it'd be good for a gish. Ebon Whispers would be, if not for Flicker.

[Kizara]

Shadows and Clouds for the most part. Cloak of Shadows if you're playing a full Shadowcaster, although it'd be good for a gish. Ebon Whispers would be, if not for Flicker.

Um... please specify if those are the good ones or the bad ones...

[Enguhl]

Hmmm...
Thanks for the... ideas (I guess that would be the right word for this).
Well Master of Shadows looks pretty cool, anyone ever play one?

[SilverClawShift]

Also, Binders are 9 kinds of fun to actually play, especially if your DM gets into giving you a hard time about being a blasphemous abomination.

[Kyeudo]

Shadowcasters are fairly flavorful, although most of it is some kind of emo flavor, but I find that they don't get enough mysteries to be good and useful.

I'm DMing for a Shadowcaster that I gave twice as many mysteries as standard, and he still seems on the weak side. Shadowcasters are especialy weak against undead and constructs, since they rely on non-lethal damage for some of their stable effects, such as Arrow of Dusk.

[Quietus]

Also, Binders are 9 kinds of fun to actually play, especially if your DM gets into giving you a hard time about being a blasphemous abomination.

Yes, but you're spoiled, so you don't count.

((Just kidding, of course - but still. Spoiled. Really.))

[Fax Celestis]

Shadowcasters are fairly flavorful, although most of it is some kind of emo flavor, but I find that they don't get enough mysteries to be good and useful.

I'm DMing for a Shadowcaster that I gave twice as many mysteries as standard, and he still seems on the weak side. Shadowcasters are especialy weak against undead and constructs, since they rely on non-lethal damage for some of their stable effects, such as Arrow of Dusk.

A good alternative is to change the Uses/Day table into a Uses/Encounter table, and give them a recharge mechanic: one full round of concentration recovers all uses for one tier (Apprentice, Initiate, or Master) for that encounter. This essentially makes them nearly identical to the martial adept classes, except in a very "casty" way.

[The_Snark]

A good alternative is to change the Uses/Day table into a Uses/Encounter table, and give them a recharge mechanic: one full round of concentration recovers all uses for one tier (Apprentice, Initiate, or Master) for that encounter. This essentially makes them nearly identical to the martial adept classes, except in a very "casty" way.

Even if you don't have the recharge mechanic, this still helps make Shadowcasters more viable; it means you can select paths that don't have much combat application and get a lot of noncombat uses out of them (Ebon Roads and Eyes of the Night Sky, most notably).

[Lochar]

Here here, I like that idea.

(Btw, I'm the shadowcaster Kyuedo was talking about)

[Fax Celestis]

Here here, I like that idea.

(Btw, I'm the shadowcaster Kyuedo was talking about)

It's a good switch. It also makes shadowcasters less like "reflavored wizards with slightly different mechanics."

[GimliFett]

Kyeudo: Are you giving twice the Mysteries Known or twice the uses/day? If the latter how're you handling Fundamentals?

Lochar: Is this how you'll be handling it in Auromar?

It's a good switch. It also makes shadowcasters less like "reflavored wizards with slightly different mechanics."

I agree. The brief time I played a character utilizing this it was enough for me to houserule it into my own games.

[Lochar]

Kyeudo: Are you giving twice the Mysteries Known or twice the uses/day? If the latter how're you handling Fundamentals?

Lochar: Is this how you'll be handling it in Auromar?


I agree. The brief time I played a character utilizing this it was enough for me to houserule it into my own games.

Twice the Mysteries known. Basically, it follows Wizard spell progression, but for mysteries instead. And can't research any new mysteries.

[GimliFett]

Twice the Mysteries known. Basically, it follows Wizard spell progression, but for mysteries instead. And can't research any new mysteries.

That's no so bad. How's the bonus feats work out with the additional Mysteries known?

[Lochar]

That's no so bad. How's the bonus feats work out with the additional Mysteries known?

Wizard bonus feat levels. So only one bonus feat every 5.

[GimliFett]

Wizard bonus feat levels. So only one bonus feat every 5.

Nice.

Back On-Topic: Enguhl -- Get the Dark Template, if possible, especially if you're in any kind of espionage/stealth campaign. Oh, and I really enjoyed having my Raven shadow familiar. Dark templated raven. Very nice. I like.

[Fax Celestis]

Nice.

Back On-Topic: Enguhl -- Get the Dark Template, if possible, especially if you're in any kind of espionage/stealth campaign. Oh, and I really enjoyed having my Raven shadow familiar. Dark templated raven. Very nice. I like.

If you're not in a stealthy campaign, the Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis will probably serve you better.

[Crazy_Uncle_Doug]

I did find some neat concepts in there, but I found that their Mysteries weren't all that different from casting spells. Unlike the Binder, which involved using a summoning magic in different ways, Shadowcasting seemed too similar to Spellcasting to completely capture my interest.

The development from spells, to spell-like abilities, to supernatural abilities did pique my interest, admittedly. Unfortunately, with the severe limit on selection and number of uses per day, it seemed to me that Shadowcasters come off as gimped Sorcerers or Warlocks. Some Paths seemed less useful than others even though they might be interesting, and with the limited choices one has, it means the less useful will rarely get their moments.

[GimliFett]

As far as an overall assessment of ToM: I LOVE Binders. Favorite class hands down. I like Shadowcasters, even moreso with the recharge. I like the idea for Truenamers, but I think they blow up at higher levels without being completely optimized, which I usually don't do so well, myself.

[Crazy_Uncle_Doug]

Binders by far have the most potential. They seem to be a great "fifth party member", filling in roles and slots as needed. Taking a couple feats means that they can change that role should the need arise.

Truenaming is a great concept, but I made a thread here about how nuts I found the mechanic, and I remain unconvinced that it's comparable to other classes at level 20.

Shadowcasting seems to have a lot of potential, but doesn't seem to go where it could. Like Psionics, it seems to me to be another way to do what Magic already does.

Wizard: "I move the rock with the power of magic!"
Psionicist: "I move the rock with the power of my mind!"
Shadowcaster: "I move the rock with the power of Shadow!"
Truenamer: "Asknsdfksdfhasdjfhsn!" *rolls a 5* "Blast! Not again."

[Enguhl]

I hadn't even looked at items. Wow, the Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis is pretty sweet. But I don't know whether I want dark template or collar. I like them both because I get too keep a level with collar, but can't afford one for a while (starting level 4 I believe).

[bingo_bob]

Wizard: "I move the rock with the power of magic!"
Psionicist: "I move the rock with the power of my mind!"
Shadowcaster: "I move the rock with the power of Shadow!"
Truenamer: "Asknsdfksdfhasdjfhsn!" *rolls a 5* "Blast! Not again."

Too true. Sigged.

But, on topic, I have to agree with anyone else. If you want to be an effective shadowcaster, you're going to have to be careful in the extreme about your choice of mysteries. There are a lot of traps there.