OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

[Peelee]

Chaplain? So this would be a Monk-vs-CoDzilla fight?

With all the college he had under his belt, it may be Mystic Theurge. Underpowered but overbuffed.

(Note to self, check BananaBlock for effectiveness against heightened spells)

The Summon Banana line allows for no saving throw and no spell resistance, keep in mind. If BananaBlock gives boosts to Will saves or SR, that may be why it's failing.

[Kish]

Responds to your opponents? So Jasdoif appears, ignores the person who summoned him, and speaks to whoever was arguing against that person? What a weird spell.

[danielxcutter]

So, before the usual Andi vs Bandana arguments continue in the new thread, can I just say that young Bandana-Beatrix is soooo lovably cute?


Ooops....too late, I guess

Never too late for that!

[Peelee]

Responds to your opponents? So Jasdoif appears, ignores the person who summoned him, and speaks to whoever was arguing against that person? What a weird spell.

It may be weird on a saner forum, perhaps. I have only seen it used to illustrate a counterpoint to someone's argument, though, so it seems to me perfectly fine (although I don't get where you have the "ignore" part come in).

[Jasdoif]

The Summon Banana line allows for no saving throw and no spell resistance, keep in mind. If BananaBlock gives boosts to Will saves or SR, that may be why it's failing.

Theoretically it isolates its area of effect from unauthorized contact with the astral plane, like a forbiddance but also excludes effects outside the area from targeting entities within it.

Theoretically.

Responds to your opponents? So Jasdoif appears, ignores the person who summoned him, and speaks to whoever was arguing against that person? What a weird spell.

You can imagine why I want to be able to selectively block it (well, that and the risk to sessile bananas)...though to be fair, it makes a fair bit more sense than some of the arguments on the forum.

[Unoriginal]

Has there been a lot of media that has portrayed people in artillery- or weapons-related careers as being pathologically unable to manage other people, handle leadership positions or develop social skills at all?

Yes. "Sociopathic/crazy big weapon handler who's obessed with big weapons who cause huge damages/shooting stuff/killing people" is a thing that you see frequently.

But oh no, it's fun and easy to mock and put down the engineers, because we're insufferable nerds with no social skills, right?

The Giant has not been doing that. No one ever mocked Andi or put her down when she was acting reasonably (with Roy and Belkar, for exemple) or when she was doing her job.

I think what gets me more is the deliberate conflation of Andi's role on the ship (as valid as any other) with her arrogance and entitlement coming to a head in the mutiny (which is totally out of line and gratingly so).

You're the one making the conflation.

If her engineering background was just that, her role in past strips, and never really came up here aside from Bandana's "go do your job" line, I was fine with that. But now the author is deliberately using trite BS about "fixing problems by hitting them with a wrench" for Andi to taunt and gloat to Bandana or "gotta go do my trigonometry homework" in the source of Andi's resentment and entitlement. I think that's what really sticks in my craw about this strip.

Andi is an engineer, she's using something she knows/is used to as a verbal jab. It's like if she had been a a Cleric and said "my mentor taught me how to wreck undead, so I took care of the banshee that was screaming on the bridge". And the trigonometry thing is because the scene is taking place while she was studying to be an engineer, for the "student babysitting a brat" trope (note that during the flashback she's portrayed as reasonable and understanding with Mrs. Secundus). If she had been studying for Applied Pickpocketing, would you have thought it was rogue-bashing?

It's one thing for Andi to be a jerk who feels entitled to leadership; that's not something tied to her role upon the ship but rather to Andi's seniority regardless of her actual title.

It's another thing entirely for the author to be pulling this "have I mentioned Andi is an engineer" routine lately, right down to Andi spouting trite crap about percussive maintenance and being a stereotypical nerd in her youth. It comes across less as "Andi just so happens to be an engineer" and more like some sort of preachy message that engineers habitually suck at leadership due to crappy social skills and people-management.

Stereotypical nerd? The only thing sterotypically nerdy about her is that she's holding a book of math.

It's made pretty clear, both in this strip and the previous ones, that Andi's issues have nothing to do with her being an engineer.


I'm sorry the strip rubbed you the wrong way, and I really want to not come out as antagonistic, but it seems to be that the strip totally accidentally poked something tangentially related to one of your sore spots, and it felt like an attack.

[The_Tentacle]

Andi is being a far bigger child right here than Bandana, and that's the irony of this situation. I really think that Andi's being an engineer is totally incidental to the fact that she's a whiny child, and Burlew is really not at all making an observation or judgement about engineers as leaders.

What makes Andi a terrible leader is not any of the various qualities that engineers are known for, but rather simply the fact that she is totally unsuited at a personal level for leadership.

I doubt I was the only one who really hoped the title of today's strip was a prelude to Bandana delivering some brutal truth to Andi. Andi is the one who is meaninglessly and dangerously angry for no reason, and who needs to grow up and act like an adult.

[Unoriginal]

Nice try Mr. Burlew, sorry but I still prefer her to Bandana.

What do you like about her?

[Unoriginal]

Does Andi even have any engineer stereotype about her? Aside from possessiveness of the ship she works on?


Also, not sure if it wasn't pointed out that much because it's obvious how much BS it it, or because it pales compared to the rest of her BS, but Andi blaming Bandana for the crewmen's deaths is just so ridiculous...

My dad fought Golden Gloves in the Navy.

Is that a Savate competition?

[Mightymosy]

By any reasonable metric, I think Andi has done enough to be responsible for her death if it happened in this scene whether it came by dagger, oversized axe, disintegrate ray, greatsword, arrow, or the ground. Though, as I said, I do not actually expect anyone in the Order to kill her (alas; the speed with which she went from pretending she wasn't actually taking Bandana prisoner to snidely gloating has managed to make me start actively hoping she winds up dead).
[...]

How comes? I can't remember you wishing the death of any character before...

[...]Stereotypical nerd? The only thing sterotypically nerdy about her is that she's holding a book of math.

It's made pretty clear, both in this strip and the previous ones, that Andi's issues have nothing to do with her being an engineer.


I'm sorry the strip rubbed you the wrong way, and I really want to not come out as antagonistic, but it seems to be that the strip totally accidentally poked something tangentially related to one of your sore spots, and it felt like an attack.

I also don't think the engineer thing is really a thing in this comic. The Necronomicon is right that the whole "STEM people are socio-empathically losers" thing has been so overdone in mainstream media, but I don't feel this is a major point here. Sure, you can complain to the Giant that he didn't take this into account and avoided the problem in the same way he seemingly cared to take care of the responsibilities of transgender, or slutshaming language, or whatever else we discusses here in the past time. But he can't take everything into account, and in a fantasy setting that by nature doesn't have many real STEM people, I personally feel that it isn't much of a focus and therefore not much of an issue.

The closest thing to STEM in the comic are wizards, who for some reason are associated and portrayed like scientists - they study the nature of the universe to be able to shoot fireballs from their fingertips.
Which, come to think of it, is rather odd, when you consider RL science is what tells people to stop believing in "magic" supernatural stuff...

And almost all the wizards have been portrayed as somehwat unsympathetic, arrogant people who feel that they are above everyone else, especially sorcerors.
So maybe that is a jab to STEM people?
Maybe it is, but then maybe we should treat it as it is: a parody which is not to be taken literally at all times.
(Incidentally, that's why I wouldn't have changed the comic regarding the issues mentioned above, but that's been discussed to great length).

Anyway, if we are really serious about not insulting anyone, and keep every single subgroup of humans happy, then there is one group who is given continous disrespect, because they are being made fun of with no remorse. And that would be stupid people.
But we may. They are too stupid to understand us making fun of them anyway, riiight?

Bottom line: It's a comic. A parody. Maybe we should all step back a little and try not being insulted, whether we are engineers, transgenders, sluts, STEM people, stupid people or anything else the comic occasionally (supposedly) makes fun of? Laughing about oneself is a huge step in character, I have found.

[TheNecrocomicon]

Citation needed for the bolded parts.

At this point I'll be surprised if you acknowledge this at all, but the fact is, you're making up stuff as much as the people who wholeheartedly embrace championing Andi are. Neither indicates "grah, being a fighter/a captain is not working hard like me!" Ever. It's much more elemental: a fighter is not a wizard/Bandana is not Andi, thus a fighter is inferior to a wizard/thus Bandana is inferior to Andi.

You're also reading a ton of stuff that isn't there into a couple jokes that no one but you has indicated considering to be a comment on engineers.

I love how quick people are on this forum to apply the "you're just making things up" dismissal to lines of reasoning that they happen to dislike or think are unlikely.

Andi looking down on Bandana's route to captaincy: #1043, #1062

You're right, she's also got more pathetically personal reasons than that, but at the same time apart from just thinking Bandana is a "brat", she thinks Bandana is being handed opportunities she allegedly doesn't deserve due to shorter tenure among the active crew.

Eugene looking down on Roy's lack of study (there are probably more but I don't have time to review all 1060+ strips): #500, #1046

You're right, Eugene looks down on fighters in general, but there is a significant element of "you all suck because you're just whacking things with a stick, which any dumb schmuck can do, but I studied to gain arcane power, therefore I am better".

... the whole "STEM people are socio-empathically losers" thing has been so overdone in mainstream media, but I don't feel this is a major point here.

...

Bottom line: It's a comic. A parody. Maybe we should all step back a little and try not being insulted, whether we are engineers, transgenders, sluts, STEM people, stupid people or anything else the comic occasionally (supposedly) makes fun of? Laughing about oneself is a huge step in character, I have found.

You know what? Thank you for the reminder about perspective. It is, after all, just a tangential throwaway in a webcomic that isn't even about this topic at all. (Contrast that with something like The Big Bang Theory, which is all about laughing at socially inept scientists/engineers as its main premise.)

When it comes down to it, this little arc will be just another blip among many meanderings that have skewered many a stereotype. Who knows, if the Mechane survives, Andi's replacement as an engineer will most likely be a much more amicable and level-headed person. She's just one character, one hindrance, amongst countless others past, present and future.

[Mightymosy]

[...]
Also, not sure if it wasn't pointed out that much because it's obvious how much BS it it, or because it pales compared to the rest of her BS, but Andi blaming Bandana for the crewmen's deaths is just so ridiculous...[...]

Is it? Because the crewmen died shortly after Bandana refused to turn the ship around. Had she indeed turned the ship around, the three 1337 frosty giant warriors could not have entered the ship and therefore not have killed the three crewmen.

So, among all of Andi's rational or irrational complaints, this one is at least based on actual facts.

Of course that tells is nothing about whether Bandana's decision was right or wrong. It clearly could have been that turning back would have been the even more dangerous choice - we certainly don't know that.
But we do know Bandana's choice had the consequence of three crewmen being killed by an enemy ambush.

[Kish]

How comes? I can't remember you wishing the death of any character before...

Considering I said how come in the post you're replying to, I'm not sure how to read this, other than an indication that you continue to have a view of Bandana which makes Andi seem less thoroughly awful here than I believe she is.

The last time I remember actively wanting a character to die, it was Tarquin (and I was quite outspoken about it). But I've also been in favor of Belkar dying ever since the Dungeon of Dorukan--though, with the prophecy ensuring it will be before the end of the year, there's no hurry.

Oh, and Vaarsuvius. I expect to keep that one until the end of the comic (which does incorporate thinking I won't get my wish until the very end, if I get it at all, which I well may not).

I'm not a nice person. Good, hopefully. Nice, no.

[danielxcutter]

Considering I said how come in the post you're replying to, I'm not sure how to read this, other than an indication that you continue to have a view of Bandana which makes Andi seem less thoroughly awful here than I believe she is.

The last time I remember actively wanting a character to die, it was Tarquin (and I was quite outspoken about it). But I've also been in favor of Belkar dying ever since the Dungeon of Dorukan--though, with the prophecy ensuring it will be before the end of the year, there's no hurry.

Oh, and Vaarsuvius. I expect to keep that one until the end of the comic (which does incorporate thinking I won't get my wish until the very end, if I get it at all, which I well may not).

I'm not a nice person. Good, hopefully. Nice, no.

I think there's a trope for that last bit.

[nocoolnamejim]

Re: The idea from a couple of pages of posts back that Andi needs to finish Bandana off before Bandana undercuts her new power.

If she could do this without the rest of the crew seeing (maybe by discretely dumping her overboard or something), I'd actually have more respect for Andi if she did this.

It would at least show some degree of competence at ANYTHING beyond her informed attribute of being good at engineering. Granted, it would be EVIL competence, but give me a competent villain over an incompetent, jealous, whining, self-centered, teenager equivalent any day.

[Mightymosy]

@Kish: What does my view of Bandana have to do with my view of Andi (the latter of which I despise, but not the point of wishing her death).

Astonishingly I had missed your death wishes to these characters. Astonishing, because I remember you expressing alot of dislike for them, but I just don't remember you ever going so far, in the 100s of posts I read.
But I guess you know best what you wrote, and maybe I did get indeed the wrong impression regarding good and nice, thanks for clarifying anyway.

[Kish]

I love how quick people are on this forum to apply the "you're just making things up" dismissal to lines of reasoning that they happen to dislike or think are unlikely.

I am afraid that, since your response included linking two strips in which Andi didn't say anything about Bandana's career path but did mention Bandana's age, it was not well-calculated to make me think differently. Or was I supposed to be looking at "I've been fixing it for fifteen years, you know?"? A claim of rights over the Mechane based on her specific career involving fixing it and on the duration thereof, but still not a statement about Bandana's career path. And once again, you assert that Eugene believes things he's never said, ignoring the fact that Roy has a Masters' degree (and that Eugene--say it with me now--never said "fighters don't study or work hard"*). If you object to people pointing out that you're claiming things are in the comic that aren't in the comic, don't do so?

*Note, to avoid unclarity here: I think Eugene may well believe, if the conversation ever got to that point, that fighters don't study or work hard. I also think the conversation would never get to that point because Eugene would think it was ridiculous to suggest that he needed more of a reason to claim wizards are superior to fighters than the tautological "a fighter is not a wizard."

[Unoriginal]

I love how quick people are on this forum to apply the "you're just making things up" dismissal to lines of reasoning that they happen to dislike or think are unlikely.

Andi looking down on Bandana's route to captaincy: #1043, #1062

You're right, she's also got more pathetically personal reasons than that, but at the same time apart from just thinking Bandana is a "brat", she thinks Bandana is being handed opportunities she allegedly doesn't deserve due to shorter tenure among the active crew.

Eugene looking down on Roy's lack of study (there are probably more but I don't have time to review all 1060+ strips): #500, #1046

You're right, Eugene looks down on fighters in general, but there is a significant element of "you all suck because you're just whacking things with a stick, which any dumb schmuck can do, but I studied to gain arcane power, therefore I am better".

Thing is, both of those characters are wrong about their assumptions of superiority over people with a different career.

I'm not saying you think that they're right, I just don't see your point in all this. That people are portrayed in the comic as being petty jerks who don't give credits to people who have equal or superior credential than they have?

[Kish]

Thing is, both of those characters are wrong about their assumptions of superiority over people with a different career.

I'm not saying you think that they're right, I just don't see your point in all this. That people are portrayed in the comic as being petty jerks who don't give credits to people who have equal or superior credential than they have?

TheNecronomicon seems to be adding in a "because engineers/wizards work/study harder" justification that isn't presented in the comic, and makes the superior-feeling character look less blatantly wrong than they do with Andi's ever-shifting justification which seems to revolve around Bandana's age, and Eugene's flat lack of any effort to justify his claim of superiority.

[Unoriginal]

TheNecronomicon seems to be adding in a "because engineers/wizards work/study harder" justification that isn't presented in the comic, and makes the superior-feeling character look less blatantly wrong than they do

Well, I think he wasn't saying that the justification was right, just that it was what they used. Now, if they did use this justification is another debate.

[Shining Wrath]

Han Solo voice I have a bad feeling about this ....

"This" being:

1. Bandana's comment about what to do if they have turned off the pass being lost in quibbling, and
2. The fact that Andi is still not paying attention to repairing the ship, which is showing visible cracks on the inside, and
3. The fact that Andi is also not paying attention to where the ship is going since the helm is not yelling at her right now, and
4. The fact that no one is organizing any help for Roy, who is outnumbered

The number of things that can go wrong while senior management squabbles is large.

[BroomGuys]

Eugene hasn't given us much in the way of real arguments when he gives Roy crap about becoming a fighter. It tends to take the form of a YouTube comment thread, where the goal is to out-one-liner the other person, and like YouTube comment threads, it never results in anything productive. He definitely seems to believe that becoming a wizard would've made Roy more powerful and thus more able to stand a chance against Xykon, but he never really makes a strong case for that.

[TheNecrocomicon]

I am afraid that, since your response included linking two strips in which Andi didn't say anything about Bandana's career path but did mention Bandana's age, it was not well-calculated to make me think differently. Or was I supposed to be looking at "I've been fixing it for fifteen years, you know?"? A claim of rights over the Mechane based on her specific career involving fixing it and on the duration thereof, but still not a statement about Bandana's career path. And once again, you assert that Eugene believes things he's never said, ignoring the fact that Roy has a Masters' degree (and that Eugene--say it with me now--never said "fighters don't study or work hard"*). If you object to people pointing out that you're claiming things are in the comic that aren't in the comic, don't do so?

*Note, to avoid unclarity here: I think Eugene may well believe, if the conversation ever got to that point, that fighters don't study or work hard. I also think the conversation would never get to that point because Eugene would think it was ridiculous to suggest that he needed more of a reason to claim wizards are superior to fighters than the tautological "a fighter is not a wizard."

I distinctly recall, within the comic, reading Eugene dismissing Roy's training as worthless or illegitimate next to the study and diligence required to become a wizard -- perhaps it's Eugene's statements in #0015 that I'm getting this from. And yet, that one is so early as to still suffer from the early-installment-weirdness before Mr. Burlew settled down in his characterizations and his plan for the comic as a whole, so maybe someone less rigidly bound in their interpretation of the strips could claim it's relatively "less" valid than more recent installments.

Meanwhile, Andi's entire attitude towards Bandana (prior to the babysitting reveal) has been "I worked hard on this ship for fifteen years, therefore I am superior to and more deserving than some brat who has been in the crew for a shorter time and has been handed a captaincy that she didn't deserve". And if, as seems to have at least been implied, Bandana was the first mate prior to being elevated to acting captain, she would have still been in a superior position to Andi back in the previous book, while Andi was still the chief engineer at that time (although presumably she didn't complain then because Julio was in charge). Sure, plain old ageism is at the root of Andi's issues; that doesn't mean she hasn't expanded upon those motives, probably in an attempt to rationalize away her own non-logic.

[Unoriginal]

He definitely seems to believe that becoming a wizard would've made Roy more powerful and thus more able to stand a chance against Xykon, but he never really makes a strong case for that.

To be fair, this is 3.5. Regular Fighter vs a Wizard that made decent choices? Not really a contest.

I mean, I know Roy wants to prove that Fighters are not inferior to Wizards, but if we want to go by the mechanisms of the world...

[Kish]

There are multiple reasons I'd pretty much reject that strip out of hand, yes (Eugene needs to speak in cryptic riddles? "Your mother and me," implying he's still in contact with Sara? No indication of being anything but a normal-afterlife spirit? "Your mother wanted you to be a wizard"?)--but the fact is, I still don't even get that far because it looks close to the opposite of what you're saying to me: he's sneering at fighters for supposedly only knowing "how to swing a big sword," and actively pointing out that Roy took enough classes to cost him 40,000 a year in tuition. He doesn't say he studied more or took more classes; he disparages Roy's classes as worthless because they taught Roy how to be a fighter, not how to be a wizard, and--say it with me, now--a fighter is not a wizard.

Similarly, yes, what you're saying about Andi now is 1) correct, and 2) notably lacking in credible claims, or claims at all, of having worked or studied harder. She's been there longer and she's been fixing the ship rather than doing any other job on it, thus she is superior: no side trips about how hard she worked, how hard Bandana worked, or how hard either of them studied.

[Samzat]

Man Andi's wisdom has to be lower than Belkar's at this point

[Mightymosy]

Eugene hasn't given us much in the way of real arguments when he gives Roy crap about becoming a fighter. It tends to take the form of a YouTube comment thread, where the goal is to out-one-liner the other person, and like YouTube comment threads, it never results in anything productive. He definitely seems to believe that becoming a wizard would've made Roy more powerful and thus more able to stand a chance against Xykon, but he never really makes a strong case for that.

Productive in-comic? No.
(That's the point when Roy finally learns this and stops trying to out-compete Eugene in this verbal sport)

Out-comic? Hell, yes
The verbal fights between Roy and Eugene have always been my most favourite parts of the comic, since they had so many great and funny lines.
Especially the one with Xykon maaaybe catching Tetanus from Roy's big metal stick - oh wait, skeleton....hilarious

[ChillerInstinct]

Han Solo voice I have a bad feeling about this ....

"This" being:

1. Bandana's comment about what to do if they have turned off the pass being lost in quibbling, and
2. The fact that Andi is still not paying attention to repairing the ship, which is showing visible cracks on the inside, and
3. The fact that Andi is also not paying attention to where the ship is going since the helm is not yelling at her right now, and
4. The fact that no one is organizing any help for Roy, who is outnumbered

The number of things that can go wrong while senior management squabbles is large.

There's an old saying about fiddling while Rome burns. I guess bickering and fiddling can be interchangeable. :P

I think that's the sweet irony here. There is, on occasion, reason to smack your leader upside the head and take the reins if they've gone off the deep end, lost perspective, etc. But if you're the one to take that action, you've got to be able to follow through. To follow up with proper judgement and right the ship, metaphorically or literally as the case may be. Andi's inaction now is as much, if not possibly moreso, more dangerous as her initial action.

And I reckon that's an intentional writing choice. If this was TRULY about preserving the Mechane and all hands on it, she'd be ignoring Bandana instead of squabbling with her to inflate her ego. She's tied up, she can't do anything to her, and at the absolute worst Andi could have her gagged if she's worried B could cause the crew to turn on her. Andi simply doesn't have the time to waste, even with Talking Being A Free Action.

Heck, there's a clear contrast between B and Andi in that regard, and I'm almost positive that's intentional, too-- notice how, even when they were fighting when B was de facto in charge, her focus was still on propely helming the ship? The only time B let herself waste time that would have been better spent leading the crew was, ironically, the very outburst that led to this predicament.

There's a time for talk, for bluster, for spelling out your grievances. That time is not when you're leading a ship through a firefight, possibly hemming yourself in, and when at least two high-levelled monsters are thirty feet from your low-levelled keister with only a single high-level fighter distracting them.

[JSSheridan]

New comic is up.

Also, please notice the big banner in my signature advertising the two latest PDF releases.

Thanks Giant!

Oh, I hide signatures.

[Unoriginal]

There's an old saying about fiddling while Rome burns.

What's funny/ironic about this saying is that several records saying that Nero went back to Rome (he wasn't actually there when the fire started), opened his palace for the fire survivors, and then took measures to lower the prices of food and stuff to make the situation more economically viable for those who escaped the disaster.