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Thread: Steven Universe
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2015-07-05, 03:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Steven Universe
If the Wizard tropes includes the Seer, wouldn't the answer be Garnet?
I haven't seen the King and his Wizard outside of the Arthurian-inspired works, but I haven't really looked into stories and tropes and related research. It is very similar to the Hero and his Mentor from the – erm, I think it's called The Monomyth? Campbell's famous analysis of the hero's journey.
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2015-07-06, 05:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Steven Universe
I stand corrected- she did actually try to rig up an EMP in episode 49(?), just before finding out the light-cannons were useless against modern gem-tech. So, uh... yeah. That.
Well, the subtext here is that Arthur is essentially heading up Merlin's PR department. (He's not exactly a puppet, but the idea of Merlin as the benignly devious manipulator is pretty ingrained in the stories. ...Which, on reflection, might not be the worst analogy for Steve's relationship with his mother and the other gems.)
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2015-07-06, 10:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Steven Universe
Which kind of says a lot about Steven as a person. People forget that Arthur was a deeply flawed figure who's weak will and ease at straying off the "right" thing were what essentially made Mordred, and caused a bunch of his problems.
The idea of Steven ever taking an authority position is quite frankly horrifying.
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2015-07-07, 11:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Steven Universe
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2015-07-07, 07:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Steven Universe
Uh... Steven is what... 10? May be a little early to draw conclusions about his long-term leadership potential.
Honestly, he strikes me as a well-intentioned kid who's gradually getting more tactically proficient and has a striking level of EQ for his age. He's excitable and maudlin and fearless-bordering-on-stupid, but that's also not atypical for his age.
What gives you the impression he'd be permanently unfit to govern, so to speak?
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2015-07-07, 07:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Steven Universe
Yeah, my impression is that, just as the first season was about Steven transitioning from the tag along kid of the team to a pretty much full fledged member, some future season will be about his transition from team member to de facto leader, taking Rose's place. I wouldn't necessarily expect that to happen this season, because this season would probably be about him as member, but even now he's taking on some of the duties of a leader, and doing a pretty good job of it sometimes.
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2015-07-07, 09:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Steven Universe
A ten year old receiving no formal education and who flunked out of basic swordsmanship due to not being willing to learn actually applicable skills(remember, Steven isn't "a healer" by choice. He wanted to learn to fight then got Pearl killed and the issue was dropped).
That's the thing. The hell is Steven going to do in like, ten years, going at the pace he is now? He isn't going to be leading from the front, despite insistence otherwise, because he's spent aproximatley zero time trying to learn how to use his powers(and lets get brutally honest, a default weapon and bubble shield isn't much. The other gems have entire suites of abilities he hasn't even bothered to explore, and that's not counting the fact that he's a tubby, inathletic kid in a world where his fights require superhuman strength, speed, and reaction time to actually matter). He also can't exactly call upon his vast experience of surviving do or die situations because he's perfectly comfortable with the gems babying him and hiding behind others when it gets hard, and his only real experience with "crunch time" amounts to "develop a new superpower at that last convenient second, which saves the day without needing to work or think about it". He sure as hell also has no good instincts to counter this, given his genius plans of "lets let the drone reach it's target without resistance" and "lure two unsuspecting humans to the island of a monster that was never found".
When characters are supposed to take up a leadership role, especially young children, there's generally an indication besides just being a main character that they're actually worthy of that leadership and capable of inspiring people. When they find out their mentors are holding back and lying about how good they are, they demand to be treated fairly and spoken to frankly so they can actually develop. When the chips are down, they need to redouble their efforts or get creative to make things work, not hope that mommy left them another power that solves the problem without their input. When their friend is trapped somewhere far away they worry about it and do everything in their power to save them, not stand around playing with sea monkeys while someone else who clearly can't do anything flounders uselessly. This isn't me talking out my ass, it's the way the genre works and has worked across a half dozen mediums and for decades upon decades, and it works for a reason.
Children don't suddenly morph into fully functioning adults able to take responsibility. They develop along the paths they're already on or choose to walk down. I believe this is the second time I've mentioned this, and I hate to repeat myself.
How in gods name do you expect Steven, who refuses to learn about Gem Culture, can't take basic lessons in fighting like other gems, refuses to take initiative, and is generally unsuited to anything resembling responsibility(see also: literally any time he has to handle any kind of important artifacts like the statue/mirror/shards/hourglass, and invariably screws it up and destroys something), to become a leader of people he knows nothing about, can't operate on par with no matter how much time he has, and clearly won't launch any kind of mission or operation on his own unless forced to?
There is a vast difference between "I'm strong enough to contribute" and "I'm the kind of person who inspires people to be their best, and plans in ways that lead to consistent victory", and it's not something that just develops on a scale of 1 to 10, they're on totally different scales alltogether.Last edited by Jayngfet; 2015-07-07 at 09:25 PM.
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2015-07-07, 09:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Steven Universe
First of all, Jayngfet, I don't particularly follow your posts and am not obliged to by the board rules, so I don't see where this indignation is coming from. If you believe you have a relevant prior post on the topic, feel free to refer me to it.
I am reluctant to counter-argue specific points because that easily devolves the discussion into a chest-bumping contest based on respective cherry-picking of episode trivia. But, to give one or two examples off the top of my head- I think Steven essentially handled things correctly when Pearl was giving Connie sword-lessons and had a good handle on Amethyst's dysfunction when she kept getting poofed.
Your assessment also goes entirely counter to what the gems themselves seem to think of Steven's potential- bearing in mind these are entities who tend to think of idle centuries as we would sunday afternoons. By their standards his growth- and particularly his mastery of gem abilities- has been positively meteoric.
Now, if you're claiming that in reality children tend to have fixed personalities and furthermore that the show's authors, prescriptively, ought to depict them as such, well... that's a rather larger discussion. But I'm really not the one you ought to take it up with.
EDIT: Oh, but this deserves special mention, given that this is exactly what Steven does at the end of Political Power.Last edited by Lacuna Caster; 2015-07-07 at 10:13 PM.
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2015-07-07, 10:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Steven Universe
Here's the thing though: Potential means nothing if it's not accessed or displayed. Potential is totally inert and inactive until it becomes an actual force that affects the world. How many kids have potential vs the ones that actually exert it in a major way?
Where is Steven's potential, as a person and not as someone who happens to develop powers whenever convenient, whenever they really need it?It's one thing to have potential, or even just say you have potential, and it's another to do something with it.
Now, if you're claiming that in reality children tend to have fixed personalities and furthermore that the show's authors, prescriptively, ought to depict them as such, well... that's a rather larger discussion. But I'm really not the one you ought to take it up with.
EDIT: Oh, but this deserves special mention, given that this is exactly what Steven does at the end of Political Power.
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2015-07-07, 10:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Steven Universe
The Challenge he failed was a result of an accident.
I also don't remember them ever saying that the Water Spire was supposed to be easy, only that it was a test, furthermore a test he passed, since he got a 75%(That's a C)-It's on'y Steven's own insistance that he failed.
Furthermore, I fail to see what the connection between Steven realizing that sometimes people in position of authority sometimes lie to avoid upsetting people has to do with Steven's "make up test."
And, furthermore, while children do not morph into responsible people as they age, the fact of the mater is, Steven is becoming more responsible as the show goes on.I also answer to Bookmark and Shadow Claw.
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2015-07-07, 11:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Steven Universe
So I didn't read the entire thread, but I saw a theory somewhere that Jasper is already a Fusion, but one that "forgot she was ever two."
The guy cited Jasper's size as a point in the theory's favor, though admitted that Rose Quartz was even bigger than her despite being (presumably) a single gem, so it might not account for much.
But another point that he made, the one that sold me on it because I already picked up on this little tidbit, was that every other fusion of 3 or more gems ends in -ite, except for Malachite. So either it's a fluke and the naming scheme is something we imagined (which is likely), or there's more than two gems inside of Jasper.
But if Jasper has two gems, one of them would likely be this "Sardonyx" Character we see named, in WordArt that almost perfectly mimics Jasper's color scheme.
On another note, am I the only one who considers Pearl the most likely to turn evil? That is, in some hypothetical scenario where it gets announced that one of the Crystal Gems will defect (un-defect? refect?) back to the Homeworld, all of my money would go on Pearl to make that Face-Heel turn.
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2015-07-07, 11:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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2015-07-07, 11:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Steven Universe
The challenge he failed because he's unfit and has poor reflexes, a poor sense of timing, and a bad anticipation of traps. If you check again you'll see that he actually failed multiple times, and would have been showered with lava even before being crushed, he just failed to notice a trap that'd have killed him otherwise. Not to mention him actually not clearing the boulder and it stopping just short of him the first time, or landing on the wrong tile but not realizing it either, or when he tried to clear the last blade and it actually stops short when his head is turned.
Steven failed the challenge five times.
I also don't remember them ever saying that the Water Spire was supposed to be easy, only that it was a test, furthermore a test he passed, since he got a 75%(That's a C)-It's on'y Steven's own insistance that he failed.
But that's irrelevant. The spire collapsed, he was given a job to prevent this. It was a pass/fail and the only reason he "passed" was because they didn't want that conversation.
Furthermore, I fail to see what the connection between Steven realizing that sometimes people in position of authority sometimes lie to avoid upsetting people has to do with Steven's "make up test."
He failed the test, and he constantly screws up outside it for the exact same reasons he failed every single test and would have been dead five times over in a real life challenge.
And, furthermore, while children do not morph into responsible people as they age, the fact of the mater is, Steven is becoming more responsible as the show goes on.Last edited by Jayngfet; 2015-07-07 at 11:27 PM.
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2015-07-07, 11:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Steven Universe
He's like, 8 or 9. 10 at the oldest.
Getting a damn 8 year old to acknowledge a mistake is huge.
I also feel that your argument depends on accentuating the negative.Last edited by Rater202; 2015-07-07 at 11:32 PM.
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2015-07-07, 11:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Steven Universe
The same way "Cute, outrageous, incorrigible comic relief" Amethyst literally lashed out at Pearl because she was convinced that everyone saw her as bad because she was created in the Kindergarden, which was a bad thing Homeworld did, and so only bad things could come out of it.
Pearl would fight and die for Rose Quartz, but she was always fighting for Rose, and not necessarily for Rose's cause. And Rose isn't here anymore. Well, she sort of is, but not really. If Pearl ever gets it into her head that she came in second in Rose's eyes- second to said cause, second to the Earth, second to humans, second to Greg- she could just decide to screw it all, it wasn't worth it, and she was wasting thousands of years of her quasi-immortal life fighting for a thing that got all of Rose's love instead of her.
I mean, Amethyst knows that Pearl and Garnet love her, she knows that Steven loves her, so it'll be pretty difficult for some Slade-like figure to convince her that her friends think lowly of her. Plus, she has fun on Earth, and likes interacting with people.
Garnet is devoted to both Steven and his cause, and so long as Steven wants to protect the world, Garnet will, too.
Pearl is the only one of the gems that would be a sociopath by human standards. She doesn't empathize with humans, and doesn't really see the point in a lot of things humans do. Earth has the least to offer Pearl, so I see her as the most likely to turn her back on it.
Again, I reiterate that I don't think the story would go that route at all, just that if CN ran an ad that said "This Season on Steven Universe, one Gem will turn to the Dark Side," I would predict that it would be Pearl.
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2015-07-07, 11:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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2015-07-07, 11:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Steven Universe
We see Amethyst get violent with Garnet as early as Tiger Millionaire, and with Pearl as Sugilite, long before Kindergarten. She might do funny things, but she's hardly just comic relief.
Pearl, on the other hand, hates admitting that she's wrong, and IMO would be the least likely to give up even if she thought it was pointless to defend Earth.
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2015-07-07, 11:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Steven Universe
Really, if he failed the test five times, well, then he'd have discovered that the Test was a fake way earlier, didn't he?
I also fail to see how you can fail a fake test that's literally impossible to fail and only exists to give him a boost in confidence to someone who lost confidence upon learning that his "failed" mission was actually a test, despite that original test only being "failed" due to an accident and Steven passing with a 75% due to 75% of his plans working.
Steven accomplished the "success" parameters of his fake make up test mission.
If Anything, Steven super passed his makeup "Test" since he figured out what it was, figured out how it all works, and then went back and did it normal anyway, because he understands why the Gems gave him a test that's impossible to fail.I also answer to Bookmark and Shadow Claw.
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2015-07-07, 11:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Steven Universe
A test designed around physical ability and memory doesn't care if you realized you'd failed, you just fail.
I also fail to see how you can fail a fake test that's literally impossible to fail and only exists to give him a boost in confidence to someone who lost confidence upon learning that his "failed" mission was actually a test, despite that original test only being "failed" due to an accident and Steven passing with a 75% due to 75% of his plans working.
Steven accomplished the "success" parameters of his fake make up test mission.
If Anything, Steven super passed his makeup "Test" since he figured out what it was, figured out how it all works, and then went back and did it normal anyway, because he understands why the Gems gave him a test that's impossible to fail.
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2015-07-07, 11:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Steven Universe
Yes, but up until that episode, Amethyst's moments of violence could be read as a form of "teenage rebellion," if you will, and not based on the deep-seated issues we didn't even know she had.
And Pearl wouldn't exactly be giving up in this scenario, it'd be more like actively fighting against the things that supposedly took precedence over her in Rose's eyes. It would be more to do with her often vindictive nature, directed at Rose.
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2015-07-08, 12:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Steven Universe
The amount of energy spent on putting down a fictional ten year old is amazing.
I won a thread. Am I pathetic to list that in my signture? Yes. Of course I am.
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2015-07-08, 12:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Steven Universe
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2015-07-08, 12:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Steven Universe
Objectivly false, on the grounds that the parameters of the mission were "Meet the gems on the other side." Steven met the Gems on the otherside.
Ergo, he succeeded on the mission, and thus passed the test.
It was a competence boost based on the idea that he can do bare minimums instead of fail in every single area it's possible to fail in.
Which is the problem. The fact that he clearly isn't ready and fails every single time he goes out into the world to do something serious shows that if that's a success, his successes aren't actually worth much.
Laser Light Cannon: Assumes that Greg has the Laser Light Cannon. Steven's assumption is correct, and he retrieves the Cannon.
Cheeseburger Backpack: Mission only fails because Steven accidentally left behind the Moon Goddess Statue. 75% of Steven's plans in the episode worked. Furthermore, we later learned that this mission was a test to see if Steven should be allowed to come on missions in the Future. Steven is brought along on Future Missions, thus, as far as the gems are concerned, Steven must passed the Test, because otherwise, he'd not have been brought on missions.
Frybro: Steven caused the problem due to not paying attention. However, he's also the one who came up with the plan that successfully defeated Frybro
Bubble Buddies: Steven is quite competent in defeating the worm.
Serious Steven: Steven was the one who figured out the trap in the Temple.
Giant Woman: Steven was the one who retrieved the Heaven Beetle. Not Amythest, Not Pearl, and definitely not Opal.
Steven the Sword Fighter: He did defeat Holo-Pearl, who was on a setting high enough to cut a Tree in half with a balloon.
Monster Buddies: Successfully tamed the Centipeetle.
Ocean Gem: Defeated the Water Doppelgangers, healed Lapis, and successfully negotiated her peaceful retreat from the earth and the return of it's oceans.
And that's just the first half of Season 1. I'm less familiar with the second half, due to only have gotten to Ocean Gem in my second watch before I got distracted by Homestuck, but off the top of my head, in "Marble Madness" Steven was the one who came up with the logical plan to obverse Peridot's Robots to find out what they want, in "The Message" Steven was the one to realize that the titular message was Video instead of Audio, in "Political Power" Steven talked down an angry mob that was out for blood, and in "Jail Break" Steven escaped from a jail cell, rescued all of the other Crystal Gems, it was Garnet's fault that he couldn't save Lapis(since Garnet decided to be a badass instead of just jab Jasper with the "instantly destroy a gem's projection" stick), and Steven's bubble shield was enough to protect the Crystal Gems from a crash landing from outside the earth's atmosphere.
That looks like a whole lot of success to me.
They gave him a test impossible to fail because they don't respect his abilities or development enough to treat him like a member of the team. It just turns out they were right to.Last edited by Rater202; 2015-07-08 at 12:27 AM.
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2015-07-08, 12:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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2015-07-08, 12:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Steven Universe
Alright, so by your parameters lets think about this from the gems perspective:
Either they think he actually beat it by winning over the challenges, but was so slow at it he's obviously not ready.
Or, and that he figured it out, but he was still slower than expected and obviously not ready.
He performed below expectations. This much is made explicit when they think he's not listening.
Laser Light Cannon: Assumes that Greg has the Laser Light Cannon. Steven's assumption is correct, and he retrieves the Cannon.
Cheeseburger Backpack: Mission only fails because Steven accidentally left behind the Moon Goddess Statue. 75% of Steven's plans in the episode worked. Furthermore, we later learned that this mission was a test to see if Steven should be allowed to come on missions in the Future. Steven is brought along on Future Missions, thus, as far as the gems are concerned, Steven must passed the Test, because otherwise, he'd not have been brought on missions.
Frybro: Steven caused the problem due to not paying attention. However, he's also the one who came up with the plan that successfully defeated Frybro
Bubble Buddies: Steven is quite competent in defeating the worm.
Giant Woman: Steven was the one who retrieved the Heaven Beetle. Not Amythest, Not Pearl, and definitely not Opal.
Steven the Sword Fighter: He did defeat Holo-Pearl, who was on a setting high enough to cut a Tree in half with a balloon.
Monster Buddies: Successfully tamed the Centipeetle.
Ocean Gem: Defeated the Water Doppelgangers, healed Lapis, and successfully negotiated her peaceful retreat from the earth and the return of it's oceans.
And that's just the first half of Season 1. I'm less familiar with the second half, due to only have gotten to Ocean Gem in my second watch before I got distracted by Homestuck, but off the top of my head, in "Marble Madness" Steven was the one who came up with the logical plan to obverse Peridot's Robots to find out what they want, in "The Message" Steven was the one to realize that the titular message was Video instead of Audio, in "Political Power" Steven talked down an angry mob that was out for blood, and in "Jail Break" Steven escaped from a jail cell, rescued all of the other Crystal Gems, it was Garnet's fault that he couldn't save Lapis(since Garnet decided to be a badass instead of just jab Jasper with the "instantly destroy a gem's projection" stick), and Steven's bubble shield was enough to protect the Crystal Gems from a crash landing from outside the earth's atmosphere.
And this is what I mean about Accentuating the Negatives: They flat out say, while talking amongst themselves, not knowing that Steven is there and thus having no reason to lie, that the gave Steven a test that one couldn't fail to boost his confidence.
You have no idea how tempted I am to make this my signatureLast edited by Jayngfet; 2015-07-08 at 12:33 AM.
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2015-07-08, 12:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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2015-07-08, 12:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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2015-07-08, 12:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Steven Universe
Steven's healing spit is tied to his Confidence-Ergo, it does matter.
Furthermore, Steven's Make up test had nothing to do with the Gem invasion.
And, I must reitnerate, Steven did not Fail the Ocean Spire Mission.
The purpose of the Mission was not, in fact, to save the ocean spire.
The purpose of the mission was to See if Steven was competant enough to go on missions.
It is an Objective Fact that Steven goes on missions after Ocean Spire.
Thus, from the point of view of the Gems, the mission was a success.
75% of Steven's ideas worked.
75% of the test was passed.
75% is a C.
C is a passing grade.
Steven passed the Ocean Spire Test, as is supported by his continued presence on missions after the fact.
All of your other objections seem to be a result of splitting hairs, and are quite arbitrary. Looking at net results, he's at least breaking even in each of those situations, and thus not failing.
Furthermore, I've proved my point: You said that Steven only ever fails, I provided you with successes, one of which you acknowledged as such.
Because yo have acknowledged at least one of Steven's successes, your claim that he always fails is thus false.
Has anybody seen this yet?Last edited by Rater202; 2015-07-08 at 12:59 AM.
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2015-07-08, 01:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Steven Universe
[QUOTE=Rater202;19504404]
Furthermore, Steven's Make up test had nothing to do with the Gem invasion.
[QUOTE]
It was a test when knowing that enemies were incoming. If it wasn't explicitly "about" the invasion it showed how he'd handle it. By which I mean he had terrible instincts, managed one hit, then contributed nothing until getting smacked in the face and losing consciousness.
And, I must reitnerate, Steven did not Fail the Ocean Spire Mission.
The purpose of the Mission was not, in fact, to save the ocean spire.
The purpose of the mission was to See if Steven was competant enough to go on missions.
It is an Objective Fact that Steven goes on missions after Ocean Spire.
Thus, from the point of view of the Gems, the mission was a success.
75% of Steven's ideas worked.
75% of the test was passed.
75% is a C.
C is a passing grade.
and a C- is never something to be proud of.
Can you imagine Rose Quartz going "well we saved three fourths of the world, that's GOOD ENOUGH"?
Steven passed the Ocean Spire Test, as is supported by his continued presence on missions after the fact.
All of your other objections seem to be a result of splitting hairs, and are quite arbitrary. Looking at net results, he's at least breaking even in each of those situations, and thus not failing.
Furthermore, I've proved my point: You said that Steven only ever fails, I provided you with successes, one of which you acknowledged as such.
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2015-07-08, 01:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Steven Universe
This was mentioned earlier (I know you didn't read through the whole thread, thus why I'm telling you, don't worry)and the general consensus was "wow no that theory is dumb and wrong."
I'mma stick by that. If Jasper was a fusion that "forgot itself" we'd of seen a second gem by now, or third in the case of Malachite.