League of Legends LXV: What threads are mine to make, little Lamb? All, dear Wolf.

[Reinboom]

Can you explain why Riot thinks GW is a good fit for a LW-based item when, to me, it seems like either an opponent is too squishy to warrant upgrading the GW to a LW item, or so tanky that the use-case blatantly overlaps with the other LW upgrade?

First up, some changes to Grievous Wounds:
It's 40% now and it affects self only healing.

This is only effective for Marks because everyone else has more health to some extent (tends to hover in the 200~300 greater range).
Tankier guys will stay in the 500 range.

You give up a effective damage against everyone for greater impact against specialized targets.

[Lethologica]

1.I wasn't being condescending.

yo
did you just link to a definition of the word 'condescending'
while claiming that you weren't being condescending
did you run that past your irony meter first
'cause
uh
you should have

(also, ad hominem only applies if Kris is claiming your argument is wrong because you're being condescending; saying she doesn't want to continue the discussion because you're being condescending isn't ad hominem. pulling out the internet debater's fallacy handbook when the other person is already frustrated with your posting style is inadvisable, but misusing it as well? tsk.)

[Olinser]

Any tips on playing Morde as an ADC? He's pretty weird, and I was never a good ADC, but I felt like I should have at least one champ because you never know what lane you'll get in soloque. So far I tend to get wrecked during laning stage but then come back hard during teamfight phase as Mace of Spades gives almost guaranteed kills.

You really have 2 options - play with a HARD engage support (Blitzcrank-Morde is generally preferred, but Leona, Thresh or Nautilus can work moderately well), or engineer a lane swap.

Morde pretty much HAS to fight constantly if you are in a 2v2 lane. His personal sustain took a big hit, and any ADC obviously will be able to poke him easily when he goes for CS. If you can't pressure your lane opponent with the threat of a hard engage and fight, you are going to lose hard.

However, last time I played Blitz-Morde bot lane, we picked up a level 2 kill and then the lane was over, they couldn't come anywhere near waves without hook to face action and Morde blowing them up.

[Nadevoc]

Hey Reinboom, could you comment on the place of on-hit builds in the ADC rework?

I feel like through a lot of League, on-hit builds felt like they could be a possible alternative build for AA-reliant champions (so, marksmen), but it's never had the power to justify it. Kog'Maw's new W suggests an on-hit build could be good, but I haven't seen anything itemization-wise. Was it something that was considered out of scope for this project, something that was looked at but you couldn't get working, or something else?


EDIT

Spoiler: Worlds

Show

Congrats to SKT on winning worlds - particularly to Faker and Bengi for being the first players to win the Summoner's Cup twice!

Nice on Koo to take a game off SKT. Maybe now they'll manage to get a good sponsor? I mean, they've certainly proven they're a good

And finally, congrats to that one random summoner who had a perfect pick 'em.

[Epinephrine_Syn]

Something odd I noticed. The listed changes for Zhoyna's Hourglass is

Zhonya's Hourglass
Cost increased to 3200 from 3000
AP reduced to 80 from 100
Armor reduced to 45 from 50

Which I think is 'really' low, but aside from that… The component items are NLR (60 AP), and Seekers Armguard (35 AP). Which means that you literally lose AP by combining the item. I feel like if literally losing stats was intended for a combination item, that'd be a first in lol history and worthy of more riot discussion on the reasoning.

So my guesses are either: "Undocumented change of recipe to Blasting Rod and Seekers Armguard". "Zhoynas is gaining the Seekers passive stacking, raising it effectively to 95 AP and 60 Armor." (which would actually be pretty cool). "Riot didn't notice the item is so horridly inefficient now that it's literally worse than the base items even factoring in a heavy nerf to one of the base items.", "The item change was documented incorrectly" (which I think given this thing isn't likely).



Seekers got changed to this for context.

Seeker's Armguard
AP lowered to 20 from 25
Armor lowered to 20 from 30

[Haruspex_Pariah]

A Youtuber previewed some of the new stuff (it's new to me, lol), and apparently there's an item (Death's Dance) which converts 20% of the damage you take into bleed over 5 seconds. It's....interesting? Instead of healing, shielding, or damage reduction you delay the damage instead. Combined with the first passive (which is basically lifesteal but for all physical damage), that should help against burst? I'll go out on a limb and guess that it's the "defensive" item for marksmen against assassins. Specifically AD casters, due to the CDR and the nature of the passive.

Spoiler: Worlds

Show

I feel really bad for the stadium audience in general. From the semi-finals onward, every team they root for loses. But yeah, it's hard to dispute that SKT deserved to win. KOO killed their perfect run though, which is something.

SKT overall was just intimidating to watch. Even in Game 3, where KOO held a steady advantage throughout and went on to win, each minor gain by SKT felt like it could snowball into a turnaround. Whereas when KOO was behind in Game 4, it was like they were being constricted by a python.

[McDouggal]

WINNER OF THE GiTP PICK'EMS IS OLINSER.

Full leaderboard since I have nothing else to do:

Spoiler: Leaderboard

Show

Position - name - (points) - [Position change from groups]

1: Olinser (86) [No change]
2: Math Mage (80) [No Change]
T-3: ex cathedra (77) [+1]
T-3: Itab (77) [+1]
T-3: Mathimaticae (77) [+1]
T-3: The Adversary (77) [+1]
T-7: Jorana (75) [+1]
T-7: McDouggal (75) [+1]
T-9: DythTheKobold (74) [+13] Note: Congrats on the largest positive change.
T-9: FireDaemon33 (74) [+1]
T-9: LegacyCWAL (74) [+1]
T-9: Xenik (74) [+1]
T-13: DapperGuy (70) [+6]
T-13: Jaxzan Proditor (70) [+6]
T-15: Duck999 (69) [-5]
T-15: SKT Carter (69) [-5]
17: LegoShrimp (68) [-2]
18: Sofawall (66) [-1]
19: PhantomFox7 (65) [+2]
20: Elealar (64) [-17] Note: wat
21: Good at Treeline (58) Note: This was efdf.
22: QWERTYSTOP (38) [-7]
23: Antonok (37) [+1]
24: Jiin in Tin (26) [-7]

Post for the group stage leaders: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...postcount=1398

[Olinser]

WINNER OF THE GiTP PICK'EMS IS OLINSER.

Full leaderboard since I have nothing else to do:

Spoiler: Leaderboard

Show

Position - name - (points) - [Position change from groups]

1: Olinser (86) [No change]
2: Math Mage (80) [No Change]
T-3: ex cathedra (77) [+1]
T-3: Itab (77) [+1]
T-3: Mathimaticae (77) [+1]
T-3: The Adversary (77) [+1]
T-7: Jorana (75) [+1]
T-7: McDouggal (75) [+1]
T-9: DythTheKobold (74) [+13] Note: Congrats on the largest positive change.
T-9: FireDaemon33 (74) [+1]
T-9: LegacyCWAL (74) [+1]
T-9: Xenik (74) [+1]
T-13: DapperGuy (70) [+6]
T-13: Jaxzan Proditor (70) [+6]
T-15: Duck999 (69) [-5]
T-15: SKT Carter (69) [-5]
17: LegoShrimp (68) [-2]
18: Sofawall (66) [-1]
19: PhantomFox7 (65) [+2]
20: Elealar (64) [-17] Note: wat
21: Good at Treeline (58) Note: This was efdf.
22: QWERTYSTOP (38) [-7]
23: Antonok (37) [+1]
24: Jiin in Tin (26) [-7]

Post for the group stage leaders: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...postcount=1398

Spoiler

Show

[Reinboom]

Hey Reinboom, could you comment on the place of on-hit builds in the ADC rework?

I feel like through a lot of League, on-hit builds felt like they could be a possible alternative build for AA-reliant champions (so, marksmen), but it's never had the power to justify it. Kog'Maw's new W suggests an on-hit build could be good, but I haven't seen anything itemization-wise. Was it something that was considered out of scope for this project, something that was looked at but you couldn't get working, or something else?

When we started the work, I actually started with on hit first. It seemed the most obvious.

Without adding a lot of distinction to on hits, the design space the was uncovered was mostly just "this is more damage".
It was very solvable per ADC. A couple Marksman felt better - Kog'maw for example - but the majority of them solved it down so quickly without having anything new out of it.

If we were to add a LOT more items, there's a much deeper and exciting design space available.
On hits that trigger spell casts, movement shifts, that have clear charge ups, and so on.

Once again, though, that didn't appeal to the fantasy of most Marksman and only a subset.
That's fine if we can generate a lot of items easily (easily being, there's not a lot of risk or difficulty in getting to their balance point or maintaining it).

To easily generate a lot of items in the Marksman space requires, directly, the removal of IE (it overwhelms the power of an auto attack and thus all related item space).
The removal of IE requires solving Critical Strike Chance.
The solving of Critical Strike Chance requires solving game to game variance. The last significant thing that keeps us from removing Crit.

And since that would take awhile, and since we believe that solving choice is a much bigger gain for the time, we aimed at the current structure for most Marksman.

[Lethologica]

20: Elealar (64) [-17] Note: wat

Well, he picked Fnatic to win. That's a lot of faith--NA levels of faith, concentrated in (I believe) the only EU player participating in the leaderboard.

[Eldariel]

Well, he picked Fnatic to win. That's a lot of faith--NA levels of faith, concentrated in (I believe) the only EU player participating in the leaderboard.

To be honest, I still maintain that out of all the quarterfinal teams in the tournament, Fnatic probably had the best shot of beating SKT, based on what I've read of the scrim results and past experiences. Koo, as good as they are in Bo5s, didn't really have trumps left for the Finals (and Koo has always been a team that wins with strategic and pick advantages). KT seemed to fall under a similar strategic spectrum as SKT, just with a massive mismatch in the midlane, which is a horrible place to be at - and they'd just gotten 3-0'd in the LCK. Of course, given how Fnatic performed in the semis, it was beyond obvious at that point that even if they somehow pulled through, they weren't gonna challenge SKT this time; their level was far lower than what they showed even in the EU LCS (be it due to burn-out, stage pressure or whatever; that tilt after G1 vs. Koo was something else).

[Olinser]

To be honest, I still maintain that out of all the quarterfinal teams in the tournament, Fnatic probably had the best shot of beating SKT, based on what I've read of the scrim results and past experiences. Koo, as good as they are in Bo5s, didn't really have trumps left for the Finals (and Koo has always been a team that wins with strategic and pick advantages). KT seemed to fall under a similar strategic spectrum as SKT, just with a massive mismatch in the midlane, which is a horrible place to be at - and they'd just gotten 3-0'd in the LCK. Of course, given how Fnatic performed in the semis, it was beyond obvious at that point that even if they somehow pulled through, they weren't gonna challenge SKT this time; their level was far lower than what they showed even in the EU LCS (be it due to burn-out, stage pressure or whatever; that tilt after G1 vs. Koo was something else).

I actually agree with you, Fnatic had the best chance to beat them. KT Rolster and Koo had already been manhandled in the Korean circuit by SKT, I feel like they conclusively proved they just weren't as good as SKT. Sure they could take a game off them here and there (as Koo did in the finals), but to actually win a best of 5 series would have required a major disaster by SKT.

Fnatic COULD have beaten them. Fnatic's problem, however, is that they have a very wide spectrum of where their team plays. If Fnatic showed up and played at their peak, they are a nearly unbeatable team. They convincingly dismantled Edward Gaming in the quarters - game 1 was the only game that Edward had a lead over all 3 games and they were only up 2k for about 10 minutes.

Unfortunately, when Fnatic is not playing well, they're just plain BAD.

Good Fnatic needed to show up to beat Koo, KT and SKT. Unfortunately bad Fnatic showed up and they got rolled by the #3 team.

[Ashen Lilies]

tsm doublelift wat

[Godskook]

If I feel like I'm being patronized to, I'm being patronized to. You don't get to dictate to me my own feelings. Never have, never will.

If I was condescending or not has literally nothing to do with your feelings and everything to do with -mine-. You can feel hurt by what I said, but you can't say I was being condescending without telling me my feelings.

yo
did you just link to a definition of the word 'condescending'
while claiming that you weren't being condescending
did you run that past your irony meter first
'cause
uh
you should have

Its actually not irony. Clarifying the meaning of a word when it is used inappropriately is not condescension, even when the word in quesiton is "condescension".

[Nadevoc]

The solving of Critical Strike Chance requires solving game to game variance. The last significant thing that keeps us from removing Crit.

Could you give a quick explanation of what you mean by this?

The game to game variance of how often you crit? Of which champs are in the game? Of whether you get ahead and get your crit items earlier than usual?

In my mind, crit (or at least the current, RNG-based implementation of it) has been sort of 'on the chopping block' in a lot of people's minds for a while, and I'd love to hear a quick clarification of the "last significant thing keeping [Riot] from removing Crit".



----

Oh, and Kook? We've moved on. Your last post serves no purpose other than trying to drag out an argument. Please move on with us. I realize this can be harder to see from within the argument, so I'm laying it out plain and simple. Thanks.

[Joran]

tsm doublelift wat

... I... this is a joke right? Is it April Fool's? Is Doublelift dressing up for Halloween? I can't really fathom this. Also, given the choice, I'd probably have taken Freeze instead.

P.S. I watched only a bit of game 3 for Worlds. I mostly wanted to watch the opening ceremony to see if they could make something as cool as Season 4... and it turns out no, they didn't even try.

[mrcarter11]

I actually agree with you, Fnatic had the best chance to beat them. KT Rolster and Koo had already been manhandled in the Korean circuit by SKT, I feel like they conclusively proved they just weren't as good as SKT. Sure they could take a game off them here and there (as Koo did in the finals), but to actually win a best of 5 series would have required a major disaster by SKT.

Fnatic COULD have beaten them. Fnatic's problem, however, is that they have a very wide spectrum of where their team plays. If Fnatic showed up and played at their peak, they are a nearly unbeatable team. They convincingly dismantled Edward Gaming in the quarters - game 1 was the only game that Edward had a lead over all 3 games and they were only up 2k for about 10 minutes.

Unfortunately, when Fnatic is not playing well, they're just plain BAD.

Good Fnatic needed to show up to beat Koo, KT and SKT. Unfortunately bad Fnatic showed up and they got rolled by the #3 team.

...wait what? You honestly think FNC could have taken a series, note not a game, but a series of SKT? Jesus, I thought the FNC fans talking that **** on reddit were joking, I didn't think anyone actually thought that. EDG didn't show up at Worlds at all man, beating them wasn't hard. Hell H2K looked like they might at one point. Any team that "shows up and plays at their peak" is likely to be nearly unbeatable if they are already a good team which FNC is. There is still a large difference between their play and the likes of SKT.

tsm doublelift wat

I mean, I like this change, it makes it easier to just dislike a single team.

[Olinser]

...wait what? You honestly think FNC could have taken a series, note not a game, but a series of SKT? Jesus, I thought the FNC fans talking that **** on reddit were joking, I didn't think anyone actually thought that. EDG didn't show up at Worlds at all man, beating them wasn't hard. Hell H2K looked like they might at one point. Any team that "shows up and plays at their peak" is likely to be nearly unbeatable if they are already a good team which FNC is. There is still a large difference between their play and the likes of SKT.



I mean, I like this change, it makes it easier to just dislike a single team.

IF Fnatic were playing at their best, it would be far from a guarantee but I think that yes, Fnatic could have won a series against SKT.

HOWEVER, the team that showed up against Koo Tigers would have gotten trashed by SKT in under 25 minutes 3 games in a row.

That's really SKT's biggest strength. They don't have a lot of variance in their play. They consistently play at a very high level, but I also feel like they never really make any great advances, they just play the current meta very, very well. I feel like Fnatic is CAPABLE of being at a higher level than them because they make bolder moves, but they are also prone to making really stupid mistakes.

[Olinser]

tsm doublelift wat

Doublelift is mediocre without Aphromoo. Aphro saved him from himself so many times this past year.

If Aphro doesn't go with him get ready for TSM to suck next year.

[McDouggal]

tsm doublelift wat

... I... this is a joke right? Is it April Fool's? Is Doublelift dressing up for Halloween? I can't really fathom this. Also, given the choice, I'd probably have taken Freeze instead.

P.S. I watched only a bit of game 3 for Worlds. I mostly wanted to watch the opening ceremony to see if they could make something as cool as Season 4... and it turns out no, they didn't even try.

I am<redacted> pissed off right now. CLG just fired their main star after a season in which he was hugely instrumental in winning their first championship. And the only thing we've seen from the CLG main office is 3 tweets. From Zikzlol. Not even Hotshot. Zikzlol.

I can't even be mad at Doublelift. He got fired. Literally 2 months after the biggest achievement of his career. That being said, the CLG jersey being thrown in the trash felt like a punch to the gut.

I've said before that while I became a CLG fan for Doublelift, I'd remain with the team if he left. I don't know if I even want to do that now. The way this has been handled it's absolutely <redacted>.

I really question the wisdom of the CLG front office right now. Pobelter, Blurred Limes, and Doublelift, all fired with barely anything announced - and Doublelift fired with barely a reason.

CLG just lost probably 30% of their fanbase to TSM. It's <redacted> amazing.

[Epinephrine_Syn]

First up, some changes to Grievous Wounds:
It's 40% now and it affects self only healing.

Where is it posted or public that it only affects self-healing? A lot of people I hear are unhappy about nerfs to healers such as soraka, but this would totally alleviate 'that' issue. Either needs to be more known I think, or if there is a link then I could give it to people.

[Razgriez]

Spoiler: Regarding CLG/Doublelift

Show

The part that bothers me the most right now about CLG's actions, is that yesterday morning, CLG HotshotGG posted on their website, and kept it fairly professional. The summery being there were disagreements, they rather not discuss it, and both they, and Doublelift are going our separate ways.

After the uproar on the internet, HotshotGG changed his tune on Twitter. Hours after saying how they don't want to discuss the matter any further than announcing it happened in a news post on CLG's website, now he's teasing "I will make a decision at midnight if I will be transparent about the situation or just stay silent. It's a tough call, what do you think?" then a few hours latter. "Going to enjoy Halloween for now, we'll give it a few more days ;)"

What kind of response is that from the president of a Professional gaming team? This is the kind of thing that causes players and fans to question how much they trust a team's management, and whether they really want to play/cheer for your team. If you think you made the right decisions, then just say so. If you think it's not professional to talk about what happened behind the scenes that led to the decision, then just say "Look, we know you all are wondering why we've made the decisions we have lately. But right now, we don't want to talk about it." Don't do this tabloid style teaser and flip-flopping.

Spoiler: And now for my Pick'em results

Show

http://pickem.lolesports.com/share/s...10956/my-picks
I regret nothing.... even after forgetting group stage picks, I still earned enough for the Summoner Icons

[Dienekes]

Not this.

Mana potions are used by a small portion of the player base consistently.
This usage rate is a major factor in what keeps us from buffing early game mana on some champions.

Yanking these out let us control and tweak mana usage early game much more easily for more players.

As someone who mainly plays a champion that really needs that extra mana regen in the laning phase, but then mana does absolutely nothing for him after that point. This is gonna suuuuuck

[Siosilvar]

As someone who mainly plays a champion that really needs that extra mana regen in the laning phase, but then mana does absolutely nothing for him after that point. This is gonna suuuuuck

Or, y'know, maybe not, because the mana and mana regen for a huge number of champions got changed on the PBE... Reina specifically mentioned that the change was made so that balancing mana consumption would be easier.

[Dienekes]

Or, y'know, maybe not, because the mana and mana regen for a huge number of champions got changed on the PBE... Reina specifically mentioned that the change was made so that balancing mana consumption would be easier.

Eh, he's already in the top 3rd of mana regen champions. I doubt they're suddenly gonna give him more. I also don't doubt it'll all be balanced out, eventually.

It's just there's probably going to be a few weeks/months in there where I'm running short by about 300-400 mana. And that's going to be very annoying.

[thracian]

I think Pantheon is actually a great example of a champion that this change is designed to effect.

[McDouggal]

Wildturtle is trying out at the CLG house. Confirmed by Zikzlol.

https://www.reddit.com/r/CLG/comment...l_hats/cwl3gfb

If this was their plan, I am really done.

EDIT: (Headphone warning) Well, this just happened.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

EDIT: (Headphone warning) Well, this just happened.

Ouch, Flash and Net used for basically nothing. It's especially funny because at exactly the same time, Diana avoids the whole thing by casually turning left and walking into the river.

[shadow_archmagi]

I think Pantheon is actually a great example of a champion that this change is designed to effect.

and Poppy!

Hey, when is that Poppy rework coming? Anyone heard anything on that lately?

[Anarion]

Ouch, Flash and Net used for basically nothing. It's especially funny because at exactly the same time, Diana avoids the whole thing by casually turning left and walking into the river.

Interestingly, that's actually a very hard dodge for Caitlyn. She's next to and slightly in front of the dead tower. She's too far to the right of the screen to dodge like Diana did (if she had done that the rest of the blue team would have caught and killed her anyway). She can't go up or down because, as demonstrated, Sion fills the entire space to the left of the tower and if she uses her movement abilities to dodge straight, she gets hit anyway. The actual dodge there was to flash further right behind the tower because it functions as terrain (so if sion hits it he stops and if he doesn't he runs past her), then walk backwards. If it looks like she's going to get caught by Sion behind her, she can walk into her blue side jungle and then net over the wall near wolves before she's caught. But that's a lot to think about in that moment.