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Thread: Elves and fridgehorror in OotS
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2011-05-29, 01:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elves and fridgehorror in OotS
Either way it doesn't matter, since the Giant may have changed it since then, and we'll never know.
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2011-05-29, 01:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elves and fridgehorror in OotS
Technically, Elves can live centuries without aging, but dwarves can only live 300 years and are aging fast (at least they look old). So, elves don't need a lot hormones for their reproduction, because they can have children anytime (but it's rare for they to do that), and dwarves must have children erly in their life.
Because of that, the elves are a litle bit androgyneous, sometime.
I still don't know why it's so horrific, though.
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2011-05-29, 01:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elves and fridgehorror in OotS
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2011-05-29, 01:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elves and fridgehorror in OotS
Except it is a fact, or at the very least a necessary logical conclusion.
Fact 1: The V-man comment was the first time people began to discuss what gender Vaarsuvius was.
Fact 2: The Giant was not making the gender ambiguous until people started questioning it after that strip was printed.
Fact 3: The usage of "V-man" when he was -not- trying to be misleading is a very decisively masculine term (as the reactions in the thread show)
Conclusion: V was initially intended to be male.
If you wish to debate this, you better come at me with more than speculation and circumstantial evidence :)Last edited by FujinAkari; 2011-05-29 at 01:20 PM.
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2011-05-29, 01:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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2011-05-29, 01:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elves and fridgehorror in OotS
By my definition of "beauty", flat-chested women can be supernaturally beautiful. And that includes the breasts. Thin women with big breasts don't make much sense, anyway. It rarely happens in real life. (without surgery, that is)
I like the androgynous elves in OotS, and I don't see any fridgehorror there. Breast size has nothing at all to do with beauty.Last edited by Themrys; 2011-05-29 at 01:30 PM.
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2011-05-29, 01:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elves and fridgehorror in OotS
You must be new to the OOTS forums... pointless debate has never been an obstacle to their continuance :P
Seriously though, you're right. The Giant has now made V ambiguous and (s)he could go either way, but claiming that the INITIAL conception of V wasn't male is to ignore all available evidence. That (s)he started as a man is all but fact at this point.Official Incense Aroma Specialist for the Vaarsuvius Fan Club!
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2011-05-29, 01:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elves and fridgehorror in OotS
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2011-05-29, 01:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elves and fridgehorror in OotS
If you think it isn't, I welcome your argument. Mine is pretty iron-clad.
1) We know, from Rich's commentary in Dungeon Crawlin' Fools that Vaarsuvius started the strip with a definite gender and it wasn't until "an early strip" caused the gender to be debated.
2) We know, from the archives, that that "early strip" was strip #9
3) We know, from Rich, that Roy's comment in Strip #9 is meant to convey that Roy considers V male.
Thus, if Rich did not consider V's gender to be ambiguous until AFTER Strip #9 was posted (and the forum reacted to it) and we know that the verbiage Roy used in Strip #9 indicated V to be male, then the only logical conclusion was that Rich considered V to be a male character. He may no longer consider V such and has definitely retconned that certainty, but you can't just ignore the facts and claim it was always ambiguous :)
Again, if you wish to contest this, you need to come at me with an actual argument based in evidence.Official Incense Aroma Specialist for the Vaarsuvius Fan Club!
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2011-05-29, 01:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elves and fridgehorror in OotS
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2011-05-29, 03:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elves and fridgehorror in OotS
We know no such thing. We know that Rich made a comment on it after strip #9, but we have no way of knowing if someone, possibly on another message board, made a comment earlier. Say, back after strip #3, with the "girl talk" episode. When Rich started the strip, he used to post it at several different D&D message boards that he was a member of to get additional feedback/exposure, so people were reading and discussing on other sites right from the beginning.
Note the exact quote from Dungeon Crawlin' Fools:
The character's gender ambiguity was not planned, but after seeing debates among fans on either side of the issue, I decided to take that particular ball and run with it.
You don't actually have evidence. You just have supposition that an oblique reference to an event can only refer to the one event you find most "probable." A probability pulled out of thin air. You can't definitively tie the comments to strip #9 just because it's the first time it was mentioned here, on this site, and so you have nothing.
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2011-05-29, 03:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elves and fridgehorror in OotS
Busy with Life
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2011-05-29, 04:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elves and fridgehorror in OotS
This isn't an unsound theory, can you please link to the debate on some other message board that you are referring too? If not, I'm afraid all you really have is speculation and it still won't stand up to evidence.
You don't actually have evidence.
Additionally, your logic does not follow. Rich had decided to make V's gender ambiguous, and so he choose to have a character refer to V in an extremely unambiguous manner?
There are a number of strips that play at the ambiguity and confuse the issue, this is not one of them.Last edited by FujinAkari; 2011-05-29 at 04:17 PM.
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2011-05-29, 04:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elves and fridgehorror in OotS
Why does it seem like every thread will, given a long enough amount of time, turn into a debate on V's gender?
Monk sucks, but you know, it's not actually worth negative LA.
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2011-05-29, 04:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elves and fridgehorror in OotS
And if you had evidence, that would be true. You don't. You have speculation, same as me. You just find your own speculation more credible. I don't.
Do I care enough about this to spend my time searching for it? No. Especially since I know that the message board that I first saw Rich posting OOTS on doesn't even exist anymore. Or the conversation could have taken place on this forum but in a separate thread; all other threads from that time period have been purged. Or maybe it was among his personal friends, at his weekly D&D game, in a chatroom, or anywhere. All that would be required would be for there to be two people to discuss it and Rich present to hear it.
The absence of written proof for my theory doesn't make your theory correct by default. You can't prove that he didn't spark that debate elsewhere, because you can't prove a negative. The only defense for that would be a positive statement by Rich where he says, "It was strip #9 that I was talking about." Which you don't have. Without that, neither position is proven or disproven. We just don't have the proper evidence.
Not unless you want to interpret them that way. And that's all it can ever be, an interpretation. Not fact.
If you have to use the word seem in relation to your evidence, then you don't have evidence. You have conjecture. Because how something seems to you is not going to be the same as how it seems to someone else. That's called an opinion, not a fact.
There is every reason to think it, if one is attempting to actually weigh the facts and not read meaning into statements that may not be there. Especially since in those days, there were MORE readers on other forums than on this one. "Official" means nothing when there are less than 100 people reading your site, but hundreds are reading it somewhere else.
I'm going to PM Rich about this, not because I expect him to answer (I don't), but because him answering is the only possible resolution to this discussion and I have things to do today.
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2011-05-29, 04:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elves and fridgehorror in OotS
The original OOTS discussion thread has gender discussion starting in response to strip #9 (page 2 on the setting with maximum posts per page), and then Rich says Roy's comment simply means Roy sees V as a male in response to the gender discussion.
That's good enough evidence for me that V was intended to be male (coupled in with the fact that Roy was originally going to be the party wizard), barring the Giant flat-out saying otherwise.Last edited by Gift Jeraff; 2011-05-29 at 04:47 PM.
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2011-05-29, 04:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elves and fridgehorror in OotS
Yes, I know, that's the very post we've been discussing.
It's great that it's good enough for you. It's not good enough for me. So I hope we can get the Giant to flat-out say whether or not it was that thread that sparked the idea in his mind.
Let's be clear: I'm not arguing that V is female. I don't know either way. I'm arguing that the evidence being prevented that the Giant MUST have intended him to be male all along is shaky and amounts to conjecture. Is it baseless conjecture? No, it's a very reasonable interpretation to make. But that's all it is, an interpretation. Not case-closed no-reason-to-ever-discuss-it-again evidence as it's being heralded.Last edited by SPoD; 2011-05-29 at 04:55 PM.
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2011-05-29, 04:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elves and fridgehorror in OotS
FujinAkari is correct. Spod is grasping at straws.
Nothing more to discuss about it, really. The evidence is clear.
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2011-05-29, 05:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elves and fridgehorror in OotS
Yes it does, actually. In a debate, two sides take up a position. My side has supporting evidence, your side does not. Therefore, the lack of support for your "somewhere else" theory necessarily makes it less plausible than the counter-argument which DOES have supporting evidence.
You can't prove that he didn't spark that debate elsewhere, because you can't prove a negative..
I'm going to PM Rich about this, not because I expect him to answer (I don't), but because him answering is the only possible resolution to this discussion and I have things to do today.
I also note you didn't address the biggest flaw in your premise: If the Giant introduced the "V-man" reference to spark gender confusion, why did he do it in such a terrible manner? You don't spark confusion by having one character blatantly refer to a character as male and every other character silently agree without comment.Last edited by FujinAkari; 2011-05-29 at 05:05 PM.
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English isn't my primary language, so please let me know if something I'm saying doesn't make sense!Continuation of ThePhantasm's awesometacular post
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2011-05-29, 05:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elves and fridgehorror in OotS
How is the evidence clear? And how is SPoD grasping at straws by stating that we can't argue with total certainty about this? We don't know the Giant's mind or what was going on at that stage. We don't know explicitly what strip started it all. SPoD stated FujinAkari's case was plausible. It just can't be recited as fact unless we know more. Which we don't.
All the thread cited proves is that Roy thought V was male."And yet, will we ever come to an end of discussion and talk if we think we must always reply to replies? For replies come from those who either cannot understand what is said to them, or are so stubborn and contentious that they refuse to give in even if they do understand." - St. Augustine
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2011-05-29, 05:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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2011-05-29, 05:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elves and fridgehorror in OotS
I admit, I like her argument. It would be a lot more sound if this had been the only forum Rich discussed OOTS on since the beginning, and if we had a complete archive of all the threads, and all that. But we don't. It is like saying "this snowball started the avalanche," when there are possibly 30 other snowballs out there that we don't know about. The only person who does know is the Giant.
The way the forum stands now isn't the way it has always been."And yet, will we ever come to an end of discussion and talk if we think we must always reply to replies? For replies come from those who either cannot understand what is said to them, or are so stubborn and contentious that they refuse to give in even if they do understand." - St. Augustine
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2011-05-29, 05:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elves and fridgehorror in OotS
Just so it doesn't look like I'm ignoring you, I want to make this clear:
I have no intention of arguing either side, here. But Fujin's argument wins over Spod's. I'm not going to argue her side, or whether her argument is valid. Please feel free to do so with her.
All I'm saying is that as the evidence she presented looks vs the evidence Spod presented, she wins.
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2011-05-29, 05:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elves and fridgehorror in OotS
I think you are expecting an unreasonable degree of truth. You are basically stating "This can't be considered correct unless every other theory is proven incorrect." That just isn't the way we live our lives... if it were then we would have to say "The light either turns on because electricity is controlled by the switch on the wall or because space aliens cause it to turn on to make me believe I have control over my life."
I mean, can you PROVE aliens aren't controlling your lamp?
Edit: To put it another way:
Truth is what we -know- to be true, Facts are things which evidence seems to indicate are true. Facts can and do change. When I went to school Paul Revere's midnight ride was factual, but I recently learned that it was actually Israel Bissel, not Paul Revere, who made the ride I was taught about.
As of right now, the accepted explaination is the argument I presented. That doesn't make it written in stone and mean it can never ever change, but unless something beyond conjecture is presented to oppose it, it will remain the accepted explaination.Last edited by FujinAkari; 2011-05-29 at 05:26 PM.
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English isn't my primary language, so please let me know if something I'm saying doesn't make sense!Continuation of ThePhantasm's awesometacular post
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2011-05-29, 05:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elves and fridgehorror in OotS
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2011-05-29, 05:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elves and fridgehorror in OotS
The problem with this line of thought is that I can argue there is an extremely small probability (almost nil) that aliens are controlling my lamp. But we know for a fact that this forum has been through many purges, that Rich posted on other forums in the early days, etc. There's a much higher probability that this all started in some other thread or discussion. We aren't offering up alternative theories for you to prove incorrect, we are calling into doubt the foundational assumption you have made for your argument. Your argument on its own is fine, but no scientific argument is in good standing unless it has analyzed enough of the data. Much of the data has been lost to us, unfortunately. That is why your theory remains at best a theory, and cannot be conclusively decided unless the Giant speaks on the matter.
It isn't the accepted explanation, though. Mainly because we have enough data from people's experiences and our knowledge of the early forums to call your theory into reasonable doubt.Last edited by ThePhantasm; 2011-05-29 at 05:33 PM.
"And yet, will we ever come to an end of discussion and talk if we think we must always reply to replies? For replies come from those who either cannot understand what is said to them, or are so stubborn and contentious that they refuse to give in even if they do understand." - St. Augustine
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2011-05-29, 05:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elves and fridgehorror in OotS
define "reasonable doubt"
To me, The Giant seeing the confusion at some other location and saying 'Hey, I know, I'll play on this and intentionally make V ambiguous by having Roy call V a man and no one else in the party acting surprised or confused in any way, shape, or form!' is completely unreasonable.Official Incense Aroma Specialist for the Vaarsuvius Fan Club!
English isn't my primary language, so please let me know if something I'm saying doesn't make sense!Continuation of ThePhantasm's awesometacular post
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2011-05-29, 05:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elves and fridgehorror in OotS
This is so true. And yet...
Oooo! Oooo! Can I?
The first time I heard someone question whether V was male or female was right after I posted my first strip. A friend of mine asked me about it; at the time, I simply answered. Luckily for me, that friend has not chosen to reveal what I said then to the world.
At the time of the lime green boots strip, there was a thread separate from the main discussion thread where someone said how nice it was to see two women adventurers who were so different from one another as V and Haley. Brief debate followed, but there were very few posters in those days. I don't think it made it to 12 posts.
By the comic with the belt, I was aware enough of the confusion that I had already taken a poll among an IRC gaming group I was in at the time and asked them what gender they thought he/she was, and the results were split: 4 thought V was a woman, 2 thought V was a man. So I decided to swing the perception the other way with my next strip.
Which leads us to...
Sure, if you're a good writer. I, on the other hand, was a very very bad writer back then. And also I could not have imagined that my choices (much less my message board posts) would be picked apart like this 8 years later. I thought it would confuse half my 50 or so readers, and that amused me. At the time, that was enough reason to do it. Remember, there was no intent to have any sort of plot until a few strips after that. My post in the thread at the time was my way of acknowledging that I wasn't going to answer the question, nothing more.
My biggest mistake was thinking that the majority-view in my 6-person poll was analogous to what the majority of the readers at the time thought or would think in the future. In hindsight, rather than trying to shift the perception the other way, I should have shifted it toward neutral, as I did in later strips. (Incidentally, it's because I now recognize that it is bad writing to have introduced the ambiguity that way that I am bothering to respond to this. It bugs me that I didn't do it more organically than that, and I don't like anyone using the fact that I was bad at doing something as proof that I must not have meant to do it.)
OK, question asked, answer given.
Now I think I may go answer some other threads randomly, because if I've already opened my mouth and spilled stuff that I'll probably regret later, I might as well do it some more.Rich Burlew
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2011-05-29, 05:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elves and fridgehorror in OotS
So really your theory hinges on your interpretation of the strip and not on the forum evidence.
Your interpretation might be right, but I don't think that strip in particular proves anything conclusive other than Roy thought V was a male, and none of the characters cared to bring up the issue. And I certainly don't think Rich's comment on the strip decisively proves your point.
EDIT: Ninja'd by the GIANT! Epic.Last edited by ThePhantasm; 2011-05-29 at 05:49 PM.
"And yet, will we ever come to an end of discussion and talk if we think we must always reply to replies? For replies come from those who either cannot understand what is said to them, or are so stubborn and contentious that they refuse to give in even if they do understand." - St. Augustine
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2011-05-29, 05:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elves and fridgehorror in OotS
Well, that's that. I guess the missing link to all this was that poll.
And I guess you can add this to your sig, ThePhantasm.