OOTS #1077 - The Discussion Thread

[yldenfrei]

To be clear, the jabs about Roy constantly losing his sword are not exactly questioning the Giant's storytelling methods. Rather they are questioning Roy's seemingly adamant refusal to rectify it. You know it's bad when an in-story character gets to point it out. Hopefully now that it got lampshaded Roy will finally do something about it.

If the Giant still wants Roy to lose the sword during plot-critical events, then he will lose it. But at least it won't be because of Roy's glaring stupidity.

[Goblin_Priest]

To be clear, the jabs about Roy constantly losing his sword are not exactly questioning the Giant's storytelling methods. Rather they are questioning Roy's seemingly adamant refusal to rectify it. You know it's bad when an in-story character gets to point it out. Hopefully now that it got lampshaded Roy will finally do something about it.

If the Giant still wants Roy to lose the sword during plot-critical events, then he will lose it. But at least it won't be because of Roy's glaring stupidity.

Felt to me like a response to the forum comments about it. Heck, there's even a thread specifically about the subject, and multiple comments about how he could retrieve it, and whether or not V knows Locate Object. I'm not certain he still reads the forum, but at least that's how it felt to me; some jokes to laugh with his fans.

I was amused.

[Goblin_Priest]

The ship had a sizable lead on Haley, V and Belkar; and they giants didn't flee until there was no ship to pelt and three adventures killing them.

Sure, the ship took damage because Andi panicked- but I imagine being pelted by hundreds of boulders would have been more damaging than scraping the bottom of your boat (especially as they lost altitude). The only real loss in her panic was the ballistas. Which could come back to bite them all in the butt shortly.

That aside: Put me in the 'mutiny made a good arc' camp. I look forward to see how V resolves getting Roy's sword back when there is likely a frost giant by it. I wonder if V will let her go after some meaningful dialog, or just blast her and be done with it. I guess only time will tell.

Wait, wait, wait! Are you saying that... Andi's rebellion SAVED the Mechane!?

They never even used the balliastas on-panel, so I don't feel like that was a huge loss, though it could bite them later.

I'm not expecting the sword's retrieval to take much screen time. Again, mere speculation, but the giants were already said to have fled, V can locate the exact location, and they made a point about being quick about it.

[pendell]

Well that was a rather abrupt wrapup to the encounter. "We killed everyone off panel"? What, you ran out of money for special effects ?

Almost as if the entire point of the encounter was to show case Bandanna as a heroine and the fight which did not revolve around the deck and her confrontation was pointless, a stage prop.

Anyways, all's well that end's well for now. And as expected, the sword will be retrieved fairly quickly with Locate Object. Possibly the Frost Giantess is still alive -- she said she could survive a fall, after all -- but given the major conflict has been resolved, I doubt she'll pose too much challenge. Flying wizard plus high level spells should be an easy match for a giant, if V has any left.

If V doesn't -- well, that will just unnecessarily drag out the denoument I expect.

Take as read Kudos for the art on the page and of course the humor. It's nice to see OOTS being funny again!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

They never even used the balliastas on-panel

That is not true.

GW

[Glorthindel]

I think the reason for the ongoing arguement between "this is a side event about nobody characters" and "this was an interesting interlude" is a disconnect between what people view the comic as.

To some, it is a finite story, and this long interlude based around side characters will to them feel like a stringing out of the story for the sake of stringing it out, and made more insulting by the fact that the main cast was mostly absent throughout the entirety of it. They came to read "the order of the sticks mission to kill Xykon", and this segment did absolutely nothing towards that story.

However, to others, this is a potentially never-ending story about its world and its people, using the order as the lense through which we see it. To them, it doesn't matter if the orders mission is advancing, because they are not reading it to see how the mission ends. To them, this interlude is excellent because it showcases some characters we have only glimpsed to now, as well as seeing a bit more of the make-up of the world.

People in the first camp are never going to convince those in the second that the strip needs to "get on with it", whereas those in the second group are never going to convince those in the first that they should care about distractions to the story they want to see.

And this ties into the discussions about the sword going awol again - to the first group, the sword being missing constitutes yet another delay to getting the order to where the story they care about is, and the fallen giant is just another monster. Whereas the second group see the giant as a window into the only-barely-explored giant culture, so want to see more of this before the story moves on to other places and other peoples.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It's nice to see OOTS being funny again!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

It's not very "respectful" to backhand compliment an author. Besides which, you are wrong: the previous strips were funny, in that they had solid punchlines and mid-page amusing moments.

GW

[GreatWyrmGold]

Please do; I'd love to see that essay.

I've got two character backstories, a character sheet for one of them, campaign information, at least half a dozen stories, and an adventure game I'd like to work on...and that's just the recreational stuff. I've got to prioritize...

I think it's far more likely that he has an ability (probably a Trait? Inherited from dad?) whereby he gets to use his Charisma in place of Wis- and Int- checks when discussing tropes, stories and other such meta-subjects.

Maybe he gets to add his dashing swordsman level plus half his bard level or something?

Well that was a rather abrupt wrapup to the encounter. "We killed everyone off panel"? What, you ran out of money for special effects ?

To be fair, V called BS on "we killed everyone". There are probably still a few giants lingering, waiting for the scary people to get away.

It's not very "respectful" to backhand compliment an author. Besides which, you are wrong: the previous strips were funny, in that they had solid punchlines and mid-page amusing moments.

GW

The kind way to interpret that statement would be "It's nice to see the comic return to a comedic focus rather than a dramatic one." YMMV on whether they deserve the benefit of the doubt, of course.

[drazen]

He could have done something interesting with the characters I have become invested in after several years of reading the comic instead of shoving them off screen to focus on the supporting cast doing very little of long term impact to anybody but themselves.

I found the mutiny annoying too, but am taking it as a meta-joke that, as the Order of the Stick are just passengers on the Mechane, what we're really seeing is the equivalent of a "crossover strip" where the Order are guest-starring in what would normally be Julio's comic strip. So of course most of the drama will come from something happening with the crew of the Mechane, and the Order are just there as a cross-promotion to get you to read their strip. Like if Spider-Man shows up in a Hulk comic or something. :)

After all, "ferry these adventurers through the pass at the request of the Captain who is taking a break" would be a perfectly reasonable plot of a Mechane-focused strip. I think ST:TNG had an episode like that, where Picard was on vacation, and Riker was left in charge of handling something or other.

[Shining Wrath]

Uhm... I'd say, more exactly: my rule is that if you think you can't accept the fact that there is an abyss between how the characters in the LOTR are written compared with Bandana and Andi and friends, then you should not start a: "Oh, then what about the characters in the LOTR?" argument, when we ara talking about Bandana and Andi.

And trust me, I've been very lenient both in my previously expressed opinion about the aforementioned characters and in this reply to you now.

Ah, so my sarcasm about the LotR means you can unfavorably compare the depth of characterization in a comic strip to that of a novel and that proves that no one should care about the characters in the comic strip, except for the ones you care about.

And trust me, I'm absolutely terrified you'll stop being lenient with me.

And your point is?
No, really, I kinda missed it. Aside the need to state an absolute triviality.
That the characters Bandana and Andi are on the same depth level of, let's say, Aragorn? Interesting as him? (Since my first reply was about this comparison).
Feel free to think so, of course.
Just don't blame me if I keep my distance as long as I'm not sure if what you got is contagious.

Since you evidently don't understand my sarcasm, here goes:
1) The criticism leveled (broadly speaking) is that the Andi - Bandana subplot is unimportant and Rich should either have not told it, or should have told it more quickly.
2) My response is that "unimportant" stories can still be interesting and worth telling.

Also, there's a quote from this strip, Tarquin: "End? Stories don't end, son. There's just the point where the story tellers stop talking".
Samwise Gamgee expressed a similar sentiment (rather more poetically) after the first fight with Shelob, when he realized that Galadriel had given Frodo a vial containing light from Earendil's vessel - and that he and Frodo were still carrying on that story, the primal myth of Middle Earth. That is, any and all stories are necessarily incomplete, fragments of a whole, and the story teller always chooses what to tell, and what to leave out, and when to stop, and those choices never please every person who hears the story.

Have you never heard anyone complaining about how many "endings" there are to the Lord of the Rings - the Ring goes into the Fire and Sauron is defeated, but wait! Aragorn is crowned and marries Arwen, but wait! Saruman must be defeated in the Shire, but wait! Frodo takes passage to Valinor with Galadriel and Gandalf and Elrond?

Lastly, direct comparisons between characters in a novel and those in a comic strip, e.g., "Bandana and Andi are on the same depth level of, let's say, Aragorn" display a nearly complete lack of literary comprehension.

[stsasser]

How many ranks on Craft (Leathersmith) to make a leash for that sword?

Even my cheap machete came with a lanyard. I suppose Greenhilt might need 'Ancestral Lanyard' with appropriate markup.

[8BitNinja]

It's not very "respectful" to backhand compliment an author. Besides which, you are wrong: the previous strips were funny, in that they had solid punchlines and mid-page amusing moments.

GW

I would hate it if I was known as the guy who posts memes, but

[dtilque]

Re: use of the ballistae on-panel

That is not true.

Also

[pendell]

It's not very "respectful" to backhand compliment an author. Besides which, you are wrong: the previous strips were funny, in that they had solid punchlines and mid-page amusing moments.

GW

To each their own, this is the first strip in quite some time that I actually laughed at. OOTS seems to me to be taking a steadily darker and more serious turn since the end of the last book , which ended with Durkon trapped in a fate worse than death while an evil monster gloated. The last book, literally, ended in darkness.

I miss stuff like Belkar's impersonation of Lord Shojo, and I'm glad we seem to be getting some of that back.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[JumboWheat01]

The way these arguments keep going back-and-forth make me wish I took ranks in Craft: Gourmet Popcorn.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

To each their own, this is the first strip in quite some time that I actually laughed at.

Which is fine, although that says more about you than the comic. My issue is that you effectively "complimented" the author in "being funny again", when it is clear the previous pages did have jokes, which you didn't think were funny - rather than that there were no jokes at all (like, say, during Durkon's death scene). So, in effect, you are effectively posting to say "Rich, your jokes of the last X pages sucked. I'm glad you finally wrote something I find sufficiently humorous", except you did so either sarcastically or passive-aggressively, and then added your usual "respectfully", which sticks out the rest of the post content like a sore thumb.

Which, as I say, if you want to do complain about jokes not landing, fine, but maybe either not claim to be respectful, or lay off the passive aggressive tone and just state your opinion about the jokes.

Grey Wolf

[Shining Wrath]

Which is fine, although that says more about you than the comic. My issue is that you effectively "complimented" the author in "being funny again", when it is clear the previous pages did have jokes, which you didn't think were funny - rather than that there were no jokes at all (like, say, during Durkon's death scene). So, in effect, you are effectively posting to say "Rich, your jokes of the last X pages sucked. I'm glad you finally wrote something I find sufficiently humorous", except you did so either sarcastically or passive-aggressively, and then added your usual "respectfully", which sticks out the rest of the post content like a sore thumb.

Which, as I say, if you want to do complain about jokes not landing, fine, but maybe either not claim to be respectful, or lay off the passive aggressive tone and just state your opinion about the jokes.

Grey Wolf

It is possible to say "This is the first strip in a while I found to be funny" in a respectful way.

[pendell]

It is possible to say "This is the first strip in a while I found to be funny" in a respectful way.

Which is exactly what I was trying to do.

ETA: I think my solution to this will be to put Grey Wolf on my ignore list. If he doesn't want to speak about the strip but instead wants to tone police my comments I am not interested in interacting with him further. Executing now.

EAGAIN to add: My training is to always find something nice to say about a work if at all possible and leave negative criticism unless absolutely necessary. This has proven a valuable skill at work and in other places. It is not being passive aggressive; it is being polite and positive. That is my intent, at any rate. Rich gets plenty of people complaining about his comic and I prefer to be one of the ones giving him praise when he earns it. Also, Rich does not seem to respond well to negative criticism, at least not from strangers he doesn't know or trust.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Dr.Zero]

Yeah, why did Tolkien throw in all that meaningless stuff about Aragon and Legolas and Gimli and Merry and Pippin when obviously (as stated REPEATEDLY in LotR) the only thing that mattered was Frodo taking the Ring to the Fire? Rubbish.

Ah, so my sarcasm about the LotR means you can unfavorably compare the depth of characterization in a comic strip to that of a novel and that proves that no one should care about the characters in the comic strip, except for the ones you care about.

And trust me, I'm absolutely terrified you'll stop being lenient with me.

Since you evidently don't understand my sarcasm, here goes:
1) The criticism leveled (broadly speaking) is that the Andi - Bandana subplot is unimportant and Rich should either have not told it, or should have told it more quickly.
2) My response is that "unimportant" stories can still be interesting and worth telling.

What I find interesting is that you seem to lack the common knowledge: "Your rhetorical question must not have an actual reply, for your sarcasm to work properly".

By the way, the fact that I started my reply with: "I'd dare to say because they were slightly more interesting", instead of an abrupt: "Because they were way more interesting", should have been quite the hint that I was replying to your sarcasm with more sarcasm.
But, meh, I guess beggars can't be choosers.

To make a long story short, and cut down this: your point number 2) is partially correct: secondary plots (let's call them so, for the sake of simplicity) can still be interesting and worth telling. If they are interesting and worth telling, clearly they are not unimportant.

But if you need to invoke a straw man argument[*] to make some sarcasm trying to justify their existence, well, take it as proof that they were not worth telling.

[*] Just to avoid the need of a new post:

Initial affirmation: "This secondary plot was unimportant and not worth telling!"
Straw man argument: force a generalization: "Nothing outside of the strictly main plot can be important and worth telling" and then reply, with more or less sarcasm, showing that there are secondary stories important and worth telling.
Basically, reply to (or try to mock) an affirmation that was not the initial one.

[Jay R]

I'm totally waiting to see how knowing about the grudge Andi had toward Bandana because the latter was an overactive child will impact the story in the long run.
It might be awesome, who knows.
In the meantime: no importance whatsoever.

Chekov's gun is supposed to have no importance whatsoever when first introduced. That's how foreshadowing works. Just like the fact that the young black dragon they slew wasn't the original dragon had no importance whatsoever when introduced in strip #188.

You aren't supposed to care about it until the ancient black dragon appears 438 strips later in #626 and the connection gets explained in strip #628.

Initial affirmation: "This secondary plot was unimportant and not worth telling!"
Straw man argument: force a generalization: "Nothing outside of the strictly main plot can be important and worth telling" and then reply, with more or less sarcasm, showing that there are secondary stories important and worth telling.
Basically, reply to (or try to mock) an affirmation that was not the initial one.

Whereas my argument is:
Initial affirmation: "This secondary plot was unimportant and not worth telling!"
Counter-argument: "There is no way to know that until the story ends."

[I could also use the counter-argument that I enjoyed it, and therefore it was worth telling just for what we've seen already, but that doesn't refute your point; it merely points out the obvious truth that we have different tastes, and this segment appealed to my taste more than to yours.]

[Cazero]

Whereas my argument is:
Initial affirmation: "This secondary plot was unimportant and not worth telling!"
Counter-argument: "There is no way to know that until the story ends."

Why wait that long?
We already have a very compelling story about history-driven prejudice, overreactions, conflict escalation and physical assault. That can solve real world issues.

[Shining Wrath]

What I find interesting is that you seem to lack the common knowledge: "Your rhetorical question must not have an actual reply, for your sarcasm to work properly".

By the way, the fact that I started my reply with: "I'd dare to say because they were slightly more interesting", instead of an abrupt: "Because they were way more interesting", should have been quite the hint that I was replying to your sarcasm with more sarcasm.
But, meh, I guess beggars can't be choosers.

To make a long story short, and cut down this: your point number 2) is partially correct: secondary plots (let's call them so, for the sake of simplicity) can still be interesting and worth telling. If they are interesting and worth telling, clearly they are not unimportant.

But if you need to invoke a straw man argument[*] to make some sarcasm trying to justify their existence, well, take it as proof that they were not worth telling.

[*] Just to avoid the need of a new post:

Initial affirmation: "This secondary plot was unimportant and not worth telling!"
Straw man argument: force a generalization: "Nothing outside of the strictly main plot can be important and worth telling" and then reply, with more or less sarcasm, showing that there are secondary stories important and worth telling.
Basically, reply to (or try to mock) an affirmation that was not the initial one.

I believe I shall let this matter drop.

[ORione]

As it happens, this is the first time I've laughed at an OotS strip in a while, too. That's not a slight against Rich or the comic; I don't often laugh at things that are supposed to be funny. I guess my point is, I agree that, "Yes. It is called Locate Object," is a great line.

[Psyren]

To each their own, this is the first strip in quite some time that I actually laughed at.

Cool story?

Whereas my argument is:
Initial affirmation: "This secondary plot was unimportant and not worth telling!"
Counter-argument: "There is no way to know that until the story ends."

[I could also use the counter-argument that I enjoyed it, and therefore it was worth telling just for what we've seen already, but that doesn't refute your point; it merely points out the obvious truth that we have different tastes, and this segment appealed to my taste more than to yours.]

As did I, and agreed with the rest too.

[Kantaki]

I'm totally waiting to see how knowing about the grudge Andi had toward Bandana because the latter was an overactive child will impact the story in the long run.
It might be awesome, who knows.
In the meantime: no importance whatsoever.

Andromeda's grudge towards Beatrice might not be important in itself, but it provided us with her reason for what she did- her grudge is what informed her opinion about the new B and caused her mutiny. (so in a sense it affected the story already.)

If the mutiny will have further effects depends on how it affects the Order's further journey and the characters involved.
From merely delaying them to costing them their ride for the journey further north all kinds of complications could arise from this.
And while that might be the only effect the mutiny has on our main characters, it will certainly affect the crew of the Mechane, especially Bandana and Andi, even if it just means one of them leaves the ship.

[Kish]

As did I, and agreed with the rest too.

Same here.

Some people have said, in so many words, that a subplot must justify itself by a long-term effect on what they consider to be the main plot. Dr.Zero's case seems to be more straightforward and also more weirdly egotistical: he didn't enjoy it and wasn't invested in the characters, therefore it's objectively valueless.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Frankly, the subplot had no importance whatsoever on the story.

"The subplot" cannot have "importance" to "the story" because, as has been said over and over, "the story" that you seem to want to read ("how plucky heroes stopped the evil lich from taking over the world") is not the story the author is telling ("characters face adversity and overcome it").

However, "the subplot" has importance to the actual story, because it is the essence of the story to put a character (here, "Bandana") facing adversity (here, "her senior engineer mutinies, crew passively accepts it") and tell of how it overcomes it (here "talk some sense into the rest of the crew so they stop being passive and realise they are better obeying her than Andi") with a side helping of "and also save the ship from being trapped" in the process.

Honestly, I have said this exact thing in one way or another in the last, what, 10 comic discussion threads? I'm running out of ways of saying "this is a character driven story, and Bandana, being a character, gets to drive this bit of the story".

Grey "This post brought to you by excessive use of double quotes" Wolf

[Jay R]

Felix made her get rid of it. Bobbles are so last season.

Ballistas, too, evidently.

[Kish]

I'll tell you right now, if anyone asked me whether I thought they should wear a ballista on their head, I'm pretty sure I'd say "no."

[Riftwolf]

Although i was kind of expecting it, I'm glad it didn't turn out the Greenhilt sword manifested the returning ability. Roy's already getting over dependant on his sword anyway.
Prove fighters don't suck? Sword.
Honour your deceased grandfather? Sword.
Prove your dad wrong? Sword.
Need a ranged attack? Sword.
Dropped your sword? Sword.
Sword sword? Sword.