Worst Prerequisites

[ScionoftheVoid]

Another thread for good-natured jokes toward WotC, this time on the topic of prerequisites.

Whether they're far too high, nonexistent or just plain weird, mention 'em here!

Some examples of what I mean, from the Most Useless Feat thread: You can take Spell Focus and certain Metamagic feats even if you have no means of casting anything. Skill Focus doesn't require ranks in a skill, so you can take in skills which are trained only, or, most oddly, Speak Language (for which you never make a check anyway).

Other examples: You can, for 50gp, own a magic item which gives off a Strong aura of Transmutation. Yes, Universal Solvent requires caster level 20 (and the Disintegrate spell). Sovreign Glue isn't much better, at the same caster level for little more than 1000gp.

Feats, items, classes, whatever. If it's 3.5 and has to do with prereqs, have a ball!

Edit: Thread title may not be the best for the topic, if you have a better one, please suggest it. Apologies if there's a general topic for this kind of thing, but I couldn't find one on the first page and couldn't remember having seen one (for such a thing, if opened up to general weirdness, would surely be ongoing). If there is, this can be closed or forgotten and I'll just make a post there.

[hushblade]

Well Master of 9 is a pain in the butt to qualify for with all of its Feat Pre-reqs.

[Kaje]

Well, obviously there Augment Summoning's prereq, Spell Focus(Conjuration), which doesn't benefit summons a bit.

Well Master of 9 is a pain in the butt to qualify for with all of its Feat Pre-reqs.

Hell, for if you wanna see tons of feat prereqs, open up any given Forgotten Realms book.

[umbergod]

Well, obviously there Augment Summoning's prereq, Spell Focus(Conjuration), which doesn't benefit summons a bit.

but it does benefit conjuration in general, as there are a lot of DD conjuration spells

[Hirax]

Well Master of 9 is a pain in the butt to qualify for with all of its Feat Pre-reqs.

I'm glad this is the first thing that was posted.

In general though, I hate all melee class pre reqs. Whereas so often caster prcs have 'any 1-3 metamagic feats' as a pre req, why can't non-caster prcs be afforded the same leniency? It's another way casters win on flexibility, because their prc pre reqs don't suck nearly as much. IE, instead of frenzied berserker requiring the crappy feats that it does, have it require any 2 rage feats instead of intimidating rage and destructive rage (those are the 2 right?). Skill requirements irk me for the same reason, I'd love for pre reqs to have more flexibility, it would allow for more creativity.

[Steward]

One that I just saw in an other thread. The Demonologist requires you to have at least five levels in a spellcasting class but instead of advancing your original spellcasting like its devil counterpart (Diabolist) it gives you a brand new spellcasting progression that's even worse than your original one.

But that's bearable. Sure, finishing out the class pretty much ruins your casting progression in your original class forever, but quite frankly you deserve it for messing with demons. Besides, most of the Book of Vile Darkness's other prestige classes want you to do something awful to get into the class -- the words 'depraved' and 'disgusting' and 'perverse' get thrown around a lot, so simply submitting to a suboptimal build seems reasonable in comparison.

What's really obnoxious is the Invisible Blade prestige class, from Complete Warrior. It's a dagger-focused prestige class, so you would expect the requirements to be focused around using daggers.

Wrong.

It asks you for Far Shot and Point Blank Shot, two feats that are nearly useless to non-archers and whose benefits are unused by the actual class.. Why? I don't know.

[Lucid]

Initiate of Pistis Sophia from the BoED. The only way to complete the prc pre-epic is by taking 10 levels of Monk ánd Vow of Poverty. And then you'd get 3 more Vows on top of that.

So I guess Mo9's prereqs are more of a pita, as it's a prc you might actually want to enter.

[Snowbluff]

MotN gets special consideration at least. 5 feats, 4 skills to 10? Ridiculous!

[ScionoftheVoid]

I'm glad this is the first thing that was posted.

In general though, I hate all melee class pre reqs. Whereas so often caster prcs have 'any 1-3 metamagic feats' as a pre req, why can't non-caster prcs be afforded the same leniency? It's another way casters win on flexibility, because their prc pre reqs don't suck nearly as much. IE, instead of frenzied berserker requiring the crappy feats that it does, have it require any 2 rage feats instead of intimidating rage and destructive rage (those are the 2 right?). Skill requirements irk me for the same reason, I'd love for pre reqs to have more flexibility, it would allow for more creativity.

On the other hand, casters have crazy stuff like Blood Mage.

"Wow, that trick looks awesome. How'd you do that, Jim?"
"Oh, it's a odd bit of magic. Harder than it looks."
"Could you teach me it?"
"Well, are you fairly tough?"
"Yeah, I'd say so."
"Good at magic in general?"
"Yep."
"Okay, one last question. Have you ever died before?"
"..." *Fireballs*
"So... you don't want the training then."

[Steward]

Initiate of Pistis Sophia from the BoED. The only way to complete the prc pre-epic is by taking 10 levels of Monk ánd Vow of Poverty. And then you'd get 3 more Vows on top of that.

So I guess Mo9's prereqs are more of a pita, as it's a prc you might actually want to enter.

Isn't that the same book with the prestige class that automatically kills off your character upon reaching your capstone? And you have to actually be dead in order to get into the class in the first place?

It is, isn't it?

[Jheska]

Telflammar shadowlord is a hard one.

Get three feats (maybe four), either a template or the shadowdancer class without GM alterations and a bucketload of skills.

How many prestige classes need another prestige class to qualify after all.

[Steward]

Telflammar shadowlord is a hard one.

Get three feats (maybe four), either a template or the shadowdancer class without GM alterations and a bucketload of skills.

How many prestige classes need another prestige class to qualify after all.

Yo dawg, I heard you liked convoluted prestige classes, so I put a convoluted prestige class in your convoluted prestige class you can.... um....

Okay.

[Psyren]

Meditant is sort of rough (needing 4 feats) but definitely worthwhile if you want to go that route.

Blood Magus is tough - not because you have to die and come back to life, but because of the crappy feats :-P

[gkathellar]

Fochlucan Lyrist, full-stop.

"Okay, I've got my bard levels, I've got my druid levels, I've got my skill ranks and my—"
"Evasion."
"************."

[Doug Lampert]

Universal Solvent requires caster level 20 (and the Disintegrate spell). Sovreign Glue isn't much better, at the same caster level for little more than 1000gp.

No it doesn't. The listed caster level is a separate listing from the prerequisites, it is not a prerequisite but rather the assumed level of the item if found at random for item saves and the like.

[Lucid]

Isn't that the same book with the prestige class that automatically kills off your character upon reaching your capstone? And you have to actually be dead in order to get into the class in the first place?

It is, isn't it?

It is indeed.

Otoh, the Champion of Gwarrgarble the unspellable from the same book is a quite nice Barbarian prc with some good synergies.

@Steward: Iirc correctly the Invisible Blade's prereqs are an editing error from the 3.0 to 3.5 conversion, since it used to be one class together with Master Thrower.

[sreservoir]

Another thread for good-natured jokes toward WotC, this time on the topic of prerequisites.

Whether they're far too high, nonexistent or just plain weird, mention 'em here!

Some examples of what I mean, from the Most Useless Feat thread: You can take Spell Focus and certain Metamagic feats even if you have no means of casting anything. Skill Focus doesn't require ranks in a skill, so you can take in skills which are trained only, or, most oddly, Speak Language (for which you never make a check anyway).

Other examples: You can, for 50gp, own a magic item which gives off a Strong aura of Transmutation. Yes, Universal Solvent requires caster level 20 (and the Disintegrate spell). Sovreign Glue isn't much better, at the same caster level for little more than 1000gp.

Feats, items, classes, whatever. If it's 3.5 and has to do with prereqs, have a ball!

Edit: Thread title may not be the best for the topic, if you have a better one, please suggest it. Apologies if there's a general topic for this kind of thing, but I couldn't find one on the first page and couldn't remember having seen one (for such a thing, if opened up to general weirdness, would surely be ongoing). If there is, this can be closed or forgotten and I'll just make a post there.

amusingly, those caster levels? aren't prerequisites. they're just considered "standard" for that kind of item. outside of e6 or something (which turns them into prereqs iirc), they don't matter, and you can make the item as soon as you have the actual prerequisites. some items do have an actual CL requirement, but most don't.

[NikitaDarkstar]

Slayer of Domiel or however the heck you spell it. It's from BoED and is basically a good assassin, same set of skills etc. Just you're required to be good instead of evil. Oh and by the way you also need several exalted feats that do nothing for you, one which has two normal prereq feats you don't need either. And then the normal assassin pre-reqs.

Yhea BoED's prestige classes are overall ridiculous.

[bloodtide]

1.Blackguard--Hide skill, why? Why would a blackguard need to hide? How does 'Evil Black Knight' and hide fit? Sure you could be a 'sneaky blackguard' with spiked full plate mail, shield and a nightmare and then..er...hide..on the battlefield. Sure sneak attack is nice, but it would have been better for the blackguard to get some more sneaky stuff to fill up the dead levels.

Plus cleave, improved sunder and power attack. Why all the martial attack feats? The blackguard is not 'that' martial of a class.

2.So the prerequisite is 'must be a 5th level sorcerer', sigh.

[deuxhero]

^^ Go go Avenger (CG and CG are boned though)

^ Yep, Blackguard is a shining example of bad prc design (also of note is their companion gains spell resistance twice)

I'm glad this is the first thing that was posted.

In general though, I hate all melee class pre reqs. Whereas so often caster prcs have 'any 1-3 metamagic feats' as a pre req, why can't non-caster prcs be afforded the same leniency? It's another way casters win on flexibility, because their prc pre reqs don't suck nearly as much. IE, instead of frenzied berserker requiring the crappy feats that it does, have it require any 2 rage feats instead of intimidating rage and destructive rage (those are the 2 right?). Skill requirements irk me for the same reason, I'd love for pre reqs to have more flexibility, it would allow for more creativity.

What about Horizon Walker's "given for free in the intended entry" of endurance?

[Psyren]

Fochlucan Lyrist, full-stop.

"Okay, I've got my bard levels, I've got my druid levels, I've got my skill ranks and my—"
"Evasion."
"************."

I guess they wanted you to be a Ranger/Bard... and dip Druid to learn the language... or something?

Still, thanks to Incarnum we can thumb our noses at CAdv and its silliness.

[BIGMamaSloth]

surprised at no mention of Vassal of Bahamut with it's kill an adolescent red dragon by your self. Remember this class is aimed at paladin's and fighters.

Also, Didn't Scion of Tem-et-nu have something weird to do with Hippos?

[gkathellar]

I guess they wanted you to be a Ranger/Bard... and dip Druid to learn the language... or something?

Still, thanks to Incarnum we can thumb our noses at CAdv and its silliness.

I'm pretty sure the prereqs are meant to refer back to the 1E bard, which required you to be a kind of fighter/thief/druid IIRC. The problem is that 1E didn't have the strict leveling structure of 3E, and that bards were absolutely amazing in that edition.

[sreservoir]

presumably, that is why the "intended" entry of bard 2/druid 1/rogue 2/fochlucan lyrist allows one to finish fochlucan lyrist to 10 and end with druid +5, yielding a +16 to BAB, just enough to get the fourth iterative in time for epic.

somehow, I don't think that's a coincidence. three 3/4 BAB yielding a 4/4 BAB? feh.

[Geigan]

Primeval from Frostburn. I don't care what anyone says, I loved that class' abilities and concept. Holy crap do it's prereqs suck though. Endurance, Self Sufficent, and *drum-roll* toughness. Friggin' toughness. I think something workable can be made from a wildshape ranger/totemist, but man does it suck for just about anyone else.

[navar100]

I'm glad this is the first thing that was posted.

In general though, I hate all melee class pre reqs. Whereas so often caster prcs have 'any 1-3 metamagic feats' as a pre req, why can't non-caster prcs be afforded the same leniency? It's another way casters win on flexibility, because their prc pre reqs don't suck nearly as much. IE, instead of frenzied berserker requiring the crappy feats that it does, have it require any 2 rage feats instead of intimidating rage and destructive rage (those are the 2 right?). Skill requirements irk me for the same reason, I'd love for pre reqs to have more flexibility, it would allow for more creativity.

Initiate of the Seven Fold Veil does have the horrible prerequisites of Spell Focus (Abjuration) and Greater Spell Focus (Abjuration), the school with very, very few spells with saving throw DC, the first one not till 4th level, and for a spell having nothing to do with the theme. Spell Compendium I think offers one or two abjuration spells with saving throws below 4th level, but Initiate was published first. Prismatic Sphere is an abjuration spell with a saving throw, so they must have decided to use that as a basis, but big whoop. Those are two feats wasted for practically your entire pre-epic career.

[Lateral]

Risen Martyr. 'Nuff said.

[Greenish]

What's really obnoxious is the Invisible Blade prestige class, from Complete Warrior. It's a dagger-focused prestige class, so you would expect the requirements to be focused around using daggers.

Wrong.

It asks you for Far Shot and Point Blank Shot, two feats that are nearly useless to non-archers and whose benefits are unused by the actual class.. Why? I don't know.

@Steward: Iirc correctly the Invisible Blade's prereqs are an editing error from the 3.0 to 3.5 conversion, since it used to be one class together with Master Thrower.

Not a conversion error, but Invisible Blade (originally a 10-level throwing-focused PrC) got butchered by the editors when writing the book.

[FMArthur]

Fochlucan Lyrist's requirements may be annoying, but Magelord's are downright enraging. It's absurd. I don't think it's actually possible for a normal character in a class that gets 9ths to actually get all 10 levels into one build unless you're using Beholder Mage or something, which only gets 3d6 Sneak Attack in benefits from the class. Maybe PAO cheese is required for entry so that you can be a monster with Evasion as a racial feature? It's really wierd.

Less difficult but more galling is Invisible Blade, which has been pointed out already as having completely unrelated requirements on account of being part of another class originally.

[CockroachTeaParty]

Fleshwarper is really hard to qualify for, thanks to the deceptive prereqs for the Graft Flesh feat (or whatever it's called). The class itself requires some 4 or 5 ranks in Heal, which is no big deal cross-class for most casters, but the Graft Flesh feat itself requires 10 (!) ranks in Heal, and you also need a familiar.