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Thread: Erfworld 66: page 60
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2007-07-08, 05:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 66: page 60
As said, look here. That's a pretty important element since otherwise, only Ansom and Vinny would have been able to fight the three dwagons in the weak hex...
Presumably, being handsome and dashing yields a higher commander rating, and thus a bigger Leadership bonus to the troops. Stanley's strategy was very simple and basic: powergame. Try to get the biggest bonuses, and then just charge.
It could work if he wasn't faced with better strategists (who croaked all his warlords, removing the big bonuses) and overwhelming odds, and if the opposition didn't have big Leadership bonus itself anyway.Last edited by Gez; 2007-07-08 at 05:08 AM.
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2007-07-08, 05:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 66: page 60
Good thought. No wonder Parson's only worth 2. Makes Jillian's comment about girlfriend really mean, tho'.
It could work if he wasn't faced with better strategists (who croaked all his warlords, removing the big bonuses) and overwhelming odds, and if the opposition didn't have big Leadership bonus itself anyway.
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2007-07-08, 05:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 66: page 60
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2007-07-08, 07:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 66: page 60
I had to travel (work related) and while looking for my hotel I see a Manpower temporary-work thingie (in Paris France!). Wonders never cease and the hotel had internet in the rooms. I plug my laptop and there was a strip.
I had "guessed" in the previous thread that Ansom would be out of move and the dwagons would be two hexes from him over that lake. Now this means other things as well. Namely that the column is huge. Ansom's carpet has probably more than 50 move (he was going to get Jillian). Now a column that big is a tasty target if one can stop Ansom from rearranging his troops on his turn.
At this point it's not clear what Parson can do next because we don't know how many spidews and twolls are on his side. If he has around 1,000 spidews than Ansom is in trouble. Parson just needs to kill the heavies with the dwagons on this turn to disrupt transport of combat units inside the column. Then he'll be able to shorten the column with minimal losses using his spidews on the two turns after that.Last edited by teratorn; 2007-07-08 at 07:53 AM.
Avatar: ruthless Parson (Erfworld).
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2007-07-08, 08:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 66: page 60
To go off on a slight tangent here, considering what we've seen so far, Vinnie is currently Ansom's single most valuable asset. Think about it.
Parson plans to ambush Ansom during the prisoner exchange? Vinnie convinces Ansom not to go.
Coalition leaders are celebrating their "victory" over the attacking dwagons? Vinnie is the one to sense something is up even before getting casualty figures.
Dwagons fly off in direction unknown after their attack? Vinnie's bats find their presumed location, and after breaking into the fort let the assault force know that charging in is futile.
Vinnie is, by all accounts, smart, experienced, and practical. He is also Ansom's trusted friend and advisor, ensuring that his words are actually listened to. Above all, he intuitively knows when things are not the way they appear to be. He may not know about the existence of Parson, but I strongly suspect that sooner rather than later he'll recognize the pattern of Stanley's strategic capabilities getting a sudden boost. Similarly, Parson doesn't know about Vinnie either - since the Tool doesn't consider anything other than stat boosts important, he likely didn't bother himself with any sort of espionage to find out the personalities and traits of other coalition warlords. He probably didn't even bother to find out their names.
In fact, there are quite a few parallels that can be drawn between Vinnie and Parson. They're both intelligent and capable leaders who are stuck playing second fiddle to their overlords. They are both the "odd man out" in their respective command structures, Vinnie by being a vampire gangster among marbits and elves, and Parson by being not of this world entirely. They both question their superiors (albeit with varied results).
I look forward to the day when the two realize that they're dealing with someone beyond the opposing leaders, and pit their minds against each other directly.
SpoilerConversely, in the unlikely event that, through various plot twists, Parson and Vinnie become allies, I look forward to seeing what the two of them can cook up when working as a team.Let's Play: Space Empires IV (complete)
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2007-07-08, 12:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 66: page 60
See, I *did* take that into account. If Ansom has no water units, those dwagons were as safe as a babe in its mother's arms. Yes, he would have had no "trap", but a trap is unnecessary if he's going to whip the siege again.
So I conclude he intends to croak Ansom, because that's the only reason he'd need the trap.
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2007-07-08, 12:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 66: page 60
Diverting wood elves to the woods does decrease the hitsies dwagons face against the column. However, probably not worth the loss of three strong examples of weak dwagon types.
However, it is something in the plus column for the GK-ers/team plaid in addition to having Ansom chasing his own tail with many heavy Gumps and two other leaders.
Even if the pincer is more for storytelling than tactics, having Ansom shifting to a defensive mindset at the outset of a siege while diverting forces from the column is nice idea.
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2007-07-08, 12:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 66: page 60
I might note, that while the term pincer movement probably is irrelevant unless the underlying battlesystem is more complex than it appears (to me), it may be there is facing for units.
Note that the panel with the Prince and Vinnie shows the stars on one side, with lines behind them.. three stars and three leaders. The stars side of the hex implies a facing.
IF you believe there is facing for units, then it is feasable to have flanking.
Picture a hex, then number the hexes around it from 1 to 6, going clockwise, with 1 being topmost to the hex.
Flanking would most likely occur from hexes 3, 4, 5 (right rear to left rear).
Hmm there cannot be threatened (sp?) spaces, however, because otherwise Ansom couldn't have reached his location on the map in one move.Last edited by darkgolem; 2007-07-08 at 12:41 PM.
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Re: Erfworld 66: page 60
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2007-07-08, 01:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 66: page 60
I now believe that Parson intends both.
SpoilerThe original plan on page 41 was, in Wanda's words, "croak or capture the coalition leader, plus the prisoner, and any other warlords they have taken along. We will also get the Arkenpliers." Then, klog #5 shows the shift in Parson's focus toward forcing Ansom to come in through the tunnels. Klog #6 explains the strategy that he came up with for destroying the siege units and achieving the new goal of klog #5. As he's planning it out with Misty's help on page 47, Wanda comes in and reveals the flaws in Ansom's intel and C&C, at which point Parson says that they can change the whole course of the battle for almost no cost.
Yet, everything that we see up through page 54 is the plan of klog #6. He didn't need Wanda's revelation to force Ansom to come in through the tunnels and he apparently hasn't given up on that goal either; the difference is that it's now just "for an opener". Looks to me like he added the original goal back in on top of the new one -- and I could've seen it five pages ago if I'd been paying (even) closer attention!Last edited by Scientivore; 2007-07-08 at 01:09 PM.
My avatar is a remix that I made of Prince Ansom. Resource credit:
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2007-07-08, 01:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 66: page 60
I agree. These are my two personal favorite characters in ErfWorld.
I think that when/if Parsons gets the kibash from the coallition it will be a plan Vinny devised, with Ansoms permission of course. Like Maxymiuk,I would also be very interested in seeing what those two could do if fate ever had them on the same side. If that comes to play I wonder who would be Batman and who would be Robin?
Sorry, if I didn't make that cheesy joke my brain would of exploded.
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2007-07-08, 01:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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2007-07-08, 02:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 66: page 60
Not nessassary, but still VERY benificial...
An Attack on the seige will be far more successful now than it would have been if he just hid by the lake.
If Parson did not set up that trap, Ansom would have made no movment against the dwagons seeing as his fling units alone would not be enough... instead he would reorganized all of his troops and to create a strong anti-dwagon defence... He would have repositioned the segie units so they were either hard for the dwagons to hit(spreading them out thinnly along the coulmn), or make them easy for ansom to defend (brining them together and mass his defences on them)... When Parson attacks with the dwagons he will be facing a strong defence and he would surely loose many dwagons in the attack... Hell, if Ansom places a warlord with the stacks that Parson attacks, then he can have the warlords direct fire to Parson's warlords... With the warlords dead, the dwagons would loose their bonus and Parson can't give them specific orders (attack only seige and then retreat)... the dwagons would be croaked... the first time Parson attacked, many of the fliers and warlords, and other misc units that could fight the dwagons were not proetecting the column, the coulmn's defences were weak; however, the nest time, Ansom will be prepared with a full defence... Parson's chances of pulling off a second sucessfull attack were rather slim
However, with Parson's plan, Ansom's attempts to defend the column from a second attack are hurt severely... Him, Vinnie, many bats, Wood elves, and Gumps are now stranded in the woods... this is a strong force that will now be able to do nothing to defend against the dwagons, giving a higher chance of victory for Parson... Even Jillian, the archons, and so forth may end up defending Ansom instead of the column... Parson's plan effectively split Ansom's anti-dwagon troops into two groups instead of one strong one... Thanks to Parson's plan, Parson is now in a golden position to do serious damage to either Ansom or the seige (hell maybe even both)
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2007-07-08, 02:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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2007-07-08, 02:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 66: page 60
I do find it interesting that the writers have turned the comic from one of Stanley vs. Ansom to Parson vs. Vinny. Vinny's biggest problem is that all he can do is try and influence Ansom. Parson is at least officially the warlord and after this turn's massacre he most likely won't have to fight too hard to get his plans approved.
It's not police brutality if they are out of uniform.
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2007-07-08, 02:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 66: page 60
I don't think the writers have done that--I think Vinnie fans have done that. The writers have yet to show Vinnie formulating a strategy. They have shown him to be cautious, loyal, and dedicated to the defeat of Stanley. He's a great character, but there is no evidence that he's a great strategist. His input can all be summarized in two words: Be Careful.
While "be careful" may always be good advice, it isn't always useful in armed conflict. In fact, being too cautious to seize initiative can be just as disastrous as being too headstrong.
Anyway, until Vinnie starts actually trying to make plans, it's still Parson vs. Ansom. Parson is, however, a paradigm shift for which no one in the Alliance seems to be prepared.
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2007-07-08, 03:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 66: page 60
Reading this page of the thread makes me think... 'Is Vinny's plot armor as thick and solid as Batman and Wolverine's?' I believe that yes, yes Vinny is that cool.
No real astounding thoughts or predictions here, sorry.
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2007-07-08, 04:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 66: page 60
How so? Ansom is not stupid nor tactically inept. He made a calculated risk and failed to see 2 steps ahead of Parson's fort decoy. Did Vinnie do this either? No. As illustrated in page 59 Vinnie supported Ansom's plan to nail the wounded dragons as he also belived that the dragons were present in the center hex. Meaning regardless if Vinnie was Chief Warlord, he would have made the exact same mistake.
So Vinnie fans please stop painting Ansom as someone that is incompetent as he is clearly not nor is Vinnie that much better then him. Thier probally roughly equal in abilities.
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2007-07-08, 05:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 66: page 60
I think that the situation is not so much that Ansom is incompetent, as that he is overly offensive minded. This is better than being insufficiently offensive minded, but it can still get you into trouble. Especially when you're convinced your opponent is an idiot. Even though Vinny hasn't determined traps ahead of time, he has been the one to recongize them first on more than one occasion, and as such has saved Ansom's bacon. From how eagerly he wanted to go after the wounded dragons, we can tell that he doesn't suffer from a lack of initiative, and of course, he's not immune to thinking he's smarter either.
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2007-07-08, 06:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 66: page 60
Question when has Vinnie saved Ansom more then once? I can only recall Vinnie advising him to not rescue Jillian personally.
The situtation and reason for the assult has been explained more then enough so I won't make it lenghty. Ansom had no choice. It was go in and take out the siege machines or lose another 40-60% of his siege weapons. Air cover was said to be not an option in one turn so he had to go in. Also it was a calculated risk he was attemtpting not because he was some sort of warmonger. The dragons had 5/100 hp (just doing an example) and 3 uncroaked warlords which is weak to the arkenpliers. So based on what limited knowledge he had Ansom picked the BEST possbile choice he had avaliable to him not because he wanted to attack and become a hero.
To counter his arrogance over Stanley I have to ask why shouldn't he? As stated by Ansom in an earlier comic Stanley has already wasted his best and brightest warlords and it has become a trend for Stanley to field incomptent warlords. There is no reason for Ansom to think that Stanley can field anyone smarter then himself. Not to mention as we have already seen Stanley is a control freak. He wants to be in control and enjoys it. The alliance probally knows this as well and there is no reason for Ansom to suspect that even if Stanley fields a moderately competent warlord there is a high chance that Stanley will still wrest the reins of command from him which he almost did do. Only Wanda seducing Stanley was Parson able to keep his command. So there was no reason for the Alliance to suspect any sort of trap as Ansom was basing this on Stanley's persona. Stanley does not like losing dragons (shown on page 60) thus he will protect them to the best of his ability hence the fort. There is no reason for Stanley to employ traps as his charecter shows that he uses brute force not guile. To Ansom's best knowledge Stanley has lost all his BEST field warlords except for Wanda hence he also has no competent advisors. Using what he knew of Stanley's persona he had no reason to suspect a trap at all.
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2007-07-08, 08:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 66: page 60
First off, Parson is showing that he's getting better at being Stanley's chief warlord, agreeing that Stanley caught Ansom in a trap. He probably needs a bit more practice at manipulating Stanley, but I figure with Wanda helping him there, he's got a good chance. I think that more importantly, Parson has Wanda's respect now. She knows he's a capable warlord now, and so she'll go to more effort helping him work the boss.
As for Ansom, I still think he was reckless. Sure, Stanley was an idiot up until now, but that was before he lost 40% of his siege units. That could have been a fluke, but the fact Stanley's forces pulled off something smart should have been ringing more alarm bells. Certainly if they get out of this, they're going to realize that Stanley has someone capable on his side.
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2007-07-08, 08:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 66: page 60
Oh I don't think there is or ever has been any doubt that Ansom is not only going to "know" that he's up against something new, but have a pretty good idea of "how" and "why" if not precisely "who" or "what." All he has to do is survive long enough for Jillian to report in, which thanks to Webinar swiping back the hat she's had no chance to do.
Wanda we know was telling her about the summoning here and I see no reason to assume that she didn't finish that portion of her little "chat" before going on to (apparently) discussing Ansom [url=http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0039.html] the next time we see them. All Jillian has to do is remember what she was told. Which while it may or may not be the whole story even as far as Wanda knew by then, at least starts out with "This monstrous Findamancy/Lookamancy... thing." so that Jillian knows it was something totally out of Stanley's ordinary routine.
There's a reason she was in a hurry to get back, and it goes beyond just "I don't follow orders." It may be entirely personal, or it may be because she knows she has vital intelligence that needs to be delivered, which was after all her mission as a scout. That intelligence may include mis-information spoon fed to her, but the best mis-information must still contain an element of truth to be believable.
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2007-07-08, 09:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 66: page 60
That intelligence definitely includes misinformation: the spell was really a Findamancy/Predictamancy thing. If and when Jillian relays it, Ansom will think that Wanda used farsight to espy a good warlord in Erfworld, not that she used probability testing on all realities at once. Of course, assuming that he saw that the three unled dwagons were receiving a leadership bonus of +2, they'll all be very confused about why Wanda would go to all that trouble and then choose someone with the same bonus as Dora...a two, for Titans' sake!
Last edited by Scientivore; 2007-07-08 at 09:38 PM. Reason: added the link
My avatar is a remix that I made of Prince Ansom. Resource credit:
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2007-07-08, 10:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 66: page 60
As you said yourself, a single clever and effective stroke on Stanley's part (the surgical raids on the siege units) can be dismissed as a fluke. Even a second one (the "fort" to protect the wounded dwagons) could be a coincidence (especially when Ansom determined that the fort was not, in fact, tough enough to protect that center hex from his forces).
Now, with the discovery that the fort was a ruse, they ought to be getting the idea that Team Stanley had gotten some competent strategic leadership.
She didn't need to return in person to deliver her report; she could have done that as soon as she joined up with Webinar's group and got the hat back (she's shown wearing it after rendezvousing with Webinar and when the Archons first arrive).Last edited by SteveMB; 2007-07-08 at 10:45 PM.
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2007-07-09, 12:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 66: page 60
She's shown reaching for it just before Webinar snatches it from her. But given "they use code" and her previous messages seemed somewhat limited, I don't think by itself she'd have wanted to depend on it for a "full report" particularly as it seems unlike the Archons to be a one-way message channel and Ansom would probably want to question her at length.
I suspect that she wanted to at least send Ansom an "I must return now, I have vital intelligence." I suspect also that Webinar, who trusts her as far as he can throw her and her Gwiffon together, sent a somewhat shorter version.
I'm wondering if whatever "disinformation" Wanda planned for her to feed Ansom in the event the trap failed ("Even if she lives she's worth more to us in the field then in our dungeon") did not involve some sort of "possible" covert operation using the fat blob she had summoned as bait.
I would not put it past her to offer to betray him and the Tool, in exchange for a better position with the other side. Heck, I wouldn't put it past her to do it, and neither I suspect might Jillian.
Oh, sidebar. On the whole "You will call me 'Mistress'" thing, when I first read that I saw it completely differently then most people here. Although they obviously have some past history ("It's very 'you'") the "tone" I read in her expression is that she's taking great personal satisfaction in the situation. It's like she's saying in effect "Our roles were once reversed. Once I served you, now I am calling the shots."Last edited by ChowGuy; 2007-07-09 at 12:54 AM.
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2007-07-09, 01:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 66: page 60
If she wanted to give VITAL information to Ansom then why didn't she tell Webinar that... She told Webinar that she wanted to return to the column to provide it air cover, and then she got into an argument over it. If she did have vital info that she wanted to tell Ansom, than why didn't she tell Webinar that... Webinar would not have raised much objection to Jillian delivering vital infromation, especially info that could potentional mean serious losses for Ansom if he doesn't know it
Last edited by slayerx; 2007-07-09 at 01:19 AM.
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2007-07-09, 02:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 66: page 60
The problem with that is that Ansom gave Webinar and the Archons orders to stay together, to move back to the column would require them to be split up, the Archons confirm that, Webinar stays that to protect the group from an ambush.
So tactically Ansom has 3 split up forces with probably at least 9 warlords total from all the various meetings, planning session etc. Those are actually now split up Ansom (10) at least due to being higher than Jillian, Vinny dont know what he is but say an 8 and Tarfu well who knows a 4 in that group.
We know what Webinar Jillian and Dora have
But the huge mystery is what has Ansom left to the column, nothing really better than a 4, I would say. Making it the prime target over the pincer or flyers group. Leadership only acts within a 1 hex area from where the commander is at, as evidenced by the leaderless stacks getting slaughtered by the 3 dwagons. Ansom and Parson overall bonuses as Chief Warlords may have a cap or proximity limit because with Ansom alone could just wipe everything out solo no need for any troops.Avatar: Red Dwagon decapitating a Cloth Golem, wonderfully drawn by Erfworld Artist Jamie Naguchi, oh yea and Rob Balder
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2007-07-09, 07:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 66: page 60
True, but often emergancies are good reason to break from orders... The reason Webinar gave Jillian such a hard time was not just because she was breaking orders, but because she was doing it for a useless reason (giving air cover to the column which all of the other warlords thought was strong enough on it's own)... Had she told him that she gained vital information while she was imprisioned, information that could not be discussed using the hat, he either would have let her go on her own to meet Ansom, or at the very least would have quick to contact Ansom to see how the group should move now that Jillian has vital info to report (Ansom may have wanted the whole group to return, instead of leaving them out there without Jillian)... Hell if she mentioned she had vital info, she might not be sitting in reserve right now and would be with the other warlords telling them what she knew... She would have avoided this whole mess she had with Webinar...
So no, i don't think she's got any useful info to tell Ansom... if she did, she would have said she needed to report to Ansom rightaway, and not make up some lie about protecting the column; she's got nothing to gain from such a lie...Whatever Wanda said, it was probably nothing that Jillian thought was of any useLast edited by slayerx; 2007-07-09 at 07:09 AM.
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2007-07-09, 07:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 66: page 60
If she'd told Webinar that, he would have (perfectly reasonably) asked her why on Erf she hadn't sent a report immediately when she first got the hat back.
Completely unsupported speculation follows:
SpoilerIt's possible that the hats are not considered sufficiently secure, notwithstanding the fact that "they use codes". If Wanda wanted Jillian to think that she needed to report in person ASAP, she might have "let slip" that she has a way to read hat-o-grams (which would also provide an alternative explanation of how they're able to keep finding Jillian so easily, making it less likely that they'll figure out the Eyemancer setup).
This may be related to the question of why she is either lying or repeating a false memory about how she escaped ("Through the tunnels, I told you."). Some more speculation:
SpoilerIf she believes that Wanda is actually acting against Stanley, and is feeding her information and then breaking her out of the dungeon on her own initiative, she would lie to protect Wanda (both for obvious pragmatic reasons and because of the "subtle control" of the psychological bond she has developed). If she believes that nobody else in the Coalition (up to and including Ansom) is aware of Wanda's "betrayal" of the Tool, this would also entail lying to everybody on her own side.Last edited by SteveMB; 2007-07-09 at 07:30 AM.
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2007-07-09, 07:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 66: page 60
I still think it's to remove air support from the column. A large number of cloth golems, Jillian, Gwiffons and archons could protect one hex. It's not much but at least a few siege engines could be saved. If Ansom and Vinny remained with the column they could split fliers in a way to protect two hexes. Parson would not go for those hexes for losses would be very high. Ansom would thus be able to save maybe 10 or even more siege units, depending on their move and on how many he could get from neighboring hexes.
Now Ansom will think he is the target and will call Jillian for support. But the tool will be smarter than him and go for something else. Without the fliers on the other side Parson can do a massive attack on the siege with basically no cost. He'll finish all siege, all battle bears and leave Ansom waiting for the battle that is not coming to him.
My guess is that the trap is not for Ansom but for the siege.
My guess
this turn: Ansom calls for Jillian
next turn: Parson finishes all siege and heavies and returns his force to GKLast edited by teratorn; 2007-07-09 at 07:50 AM.
Avatar: ruthless Parson (Erfworld).