Results 331 to 360 of 619
-
2012-07-01, 09:09 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2011
- Location
- Fairbanks, Alaska
- Gender
Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
Playing:
Rouge Legacy
Chess (On FB, not the musical)
-
2012-07-01, 09:58 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2011
Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
-
2012-07-01, 11:23 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2004
- Location
Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
You are arguing from hindsight, based on information Roy did not have and could not be expected to have.
I would count a phylactery as a spectacularly clever fashion. If it were so obvious that there may be a phylactery, the guy whose personal quest it was, the guy with the Knowledge: Arcana ought to tip off the Fighter who is courageously taking the burden. If it were not obvious, then Roy is off the hook.
Roy had no reason to believe that Redcloak was more than a random lackey, just like the three or four other color-cloaked spellcasting goblins already carved up.I owe Peelee 5 Quatloos. But I am going double or nothing that Durkon will be casting 8th level spells at the big finale.
I bet Goblin_Priest 5 quatloos that Xykon does not know RC has the phylactery at this point in the tale (#1139).
Using my Bardic skills I see the fate of Belkar...so close!
Using my Bardic skills I see the fate of goblinkind!
-
2012-07-02, 02:59 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2008
- Location
- Forest Grove, Oregon
- Gender
Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
Granted, although some of the "clearing out" was done via Elan blowing it up, which they actually didn't want to do (even if it probably did turn out to be for the best).
Granted.
I've covered this one. There were a few examples of competency displayed, like Haley persuading Samantha's dad their whole setup was unfeasible, and Roy sneaking his way in using the Bag of Tricks -- but it is overall dwarfed by the continual muck-ups. Elan chooses to seduce Samantha rather than escape. Roy chooses to let the rest of his party try to rescue Elan alone. Haley can't control Belkar, who lights the camp on fire and gets them captured. Haley challenges Samantha to a duel and gets curbstomped. Roy loses to the bandit leader. They're all captured and about to be robbed and left to an uncertain fate when Samantha's dad makes the mistake of thinking Durkon is a potential ally. Durkon knocks him out without meaning to, saving the day because the rest of the bandits declare him their leader. In short their success had much much more to do with "luck" than "competency".
Granted. Miko gets some credit here too, but they distinguished themselves well.
Which is the prelude to their eventual pushing her over the edge. Don't get me wrong, I've never felt the Order had some kind of obligation to Miko's self-esteem. But I don't think they were overall successful in dealing with her, and save for Durkon they didn't care to be.
Wait, what? Elan tried. They got one guy out. How the rest were evacuated I don't think was explained, but I presume Miko had a lot to do with it, because we saw her in the burning in, "rescuing the helpless." They failed at this.
I dispute that this is "competence." V had three usable spells. The party didn't bother to try and turn her back into an elf before they went after the Starmetal. V was able to use one of those spells, to a degree that the spell isn't even supposed to work, because of a fluke that the dragon could actually understand V's lizard-speech. V later killed the dragon when she was restored, before it got a chance to do anything to them -- well, she was successful in that, though in light of what happened later, it wasn't necessarily a particularly wise course of action.
Partial credit at most.
Yes, that's granted.
Which incident are you referring to? In Cliffport, Nale's real goal was to replace Elan, which he did successfully. In Azure City, I would say Elan was doing the ambushing. They did win that round though, fair and square.
Granted. The shell game explanation is one of my favorite bits from Haley, actually.
....granted, but they were rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic with that bit. They got some good done, but they were up against mooks and Tsukiko for the most part. They didn't have Xykon or Redcloak's full attention -- and once the Resistance DID have Redcloak's full attention it went pretty poorly for them. Until Celia showed up, they weren't able to unify the Resistance either. Finally, they would have done better by the team if they'd left.
Another partial credit.
Granted.
Oh God, seriously? V's Soul Splicing counts as a success? V got her butt kicked by the ABD because she'd isolated herself and gotten careless. She killed the ABD by selling her soul to a group of villains and in the process probably doomed the Order's attempt to save the next Gate. Maybe selling her soul was the only way, but it definitely wasn't her victory.
Granted.
Which incident does this refer to? Vaarsuvius "captured" Yukuk and defeated Zz'dtri, Roy defeated and may have killed Thog. Yukyuk later died at the hands of his old teammates... is that it?
In any case, mostly granted, except for Yukyuk's death.
Dude, Tarquin wanted them to get there before him. The heroes do all the work and the villains snatch their victory away from them.
I think we should define what is competency rather than what is incompetency, if your list is designed to catalog the former. And again, I'd say competency is "knowing what you want, being able to identify what's needed to get it, and through the deliberate application of your own personal skills achieving that desired result."
-
2012-07-02, 03:20 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2007
- Location
- USA
- Gender
Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
Except no one is making the argument that V. would not be useful. Of course V. would be useful. The argument is whether Roy thinks that a Sending would make a difference.
[/quote]This line of argument assumes that Roy wouldn't ask his party Wizard for a spell list. That is absurd.[/quote]
Given that Roy didn't know that Durkon prepared Speak with Dead and didn't prepare Control Winds, then yes, it is logical to assume that Roy knows as much about V's prepared spells as Durkon's prepared spells: next to nothing. Which is further backed up by the fact that in the same strip as linked to by Control Winds, Roy has to ASK what magic they have that might help. If Roy knew either of their prepared spells, he wouldn't have to ask.
It also assumes that Roy wouldn't try to contact his missing friend and Heavy Artillery because he thinks only a Passwall would bring them together. That is also absurd.
For all Roy knows, V is in the next room.
I appreciate some don't approve of Roy attempting to get V back with the party and it is certainly true that casting time is a big issue; if Roy decides to have other priorities, well that's a choice someone has to make.
What is illogical is to to assume that Roy thinks V is just around the corner. I've backed up my arguments with comics. What do you have to back up your statements with?
-
2012-07-02, 03:47 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2008
- Location
- Forest Grove, Oregon
- Gender
-
2012-07-02, 07:20 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2011
- Location
- Utrecht, the Netherlands
- Gender
Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
The fish are watching.
-
2012-07-02, 08:34 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2009
Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
The same Linear Guild who narrowed down the location of Girard's Gate for the Order of the Stick while they were running around like chickens without their heads for 10 months? And who would have narrowed it down even further had Penelope not been carelessly killed by a member of the Order? That one?
-
2012-07-02, 09:59 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2011
Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
I don't think it's fair to equate competency with victory- defeating a far inferior foe doesn't say a lot about your competency, just your power. Likewise being defeated by a high level foe. I would say by and large the Order showed competence in the Siege of Azure City, despite the fact that they lost- the obvious exception is Roy's decision to tackle Xykon one on one, but keep in mind that A) the last time Roy had directly confronted Xykon, he pretty convincingly manhandled him, and he'd gained a magic weapon against undead since then. Even without a gate to throw him into, he could have reasonably expected to separate Xykon from the dragon and keep him from utterly smashing the wall's defenses and B) He actually managed exactly that.
-
2012-07-02, 10:09 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2012
-
2012-07-02, 11:37 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2007
Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
No, he's not in the next room... See third panel of #847; Roy looks around screaming V's name.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0847.html
V's not nearby, so clearly something happened to him, whatever it was. Otherwise, V would be around.
This point is actually the source of the disagreement between you and those who think Sending wouldn't be of any use.
We all agree V is useful in battle, and that it would be nice to have V in the party at the moment.
Unlike you though, I consider that Sending has essentially zero chance of bringing V back in the party in time, because V's clearly not just "in the next room".Offer good while supplies last. Two to a customer. Each item sold separately. Batteries not included. Mileage may vary. All sales are final. Allow six weeks for delivery. Some items not available. Some assembly required. Some restrictions may apply. All entries become our property. Employees not eligible. Entry fees not refundable. Local restrictions apply. Void where prohibited. Except in Indiana.
-
2012-07-02, 11:50 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2011
Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
lichs having phylacterys is common knowledge Roy not knowing meant he spent literally no time at all learning about what he was about to fight
also not knowing the significance of the crimson mantle is again completely roys fault for not preparing for there enemy at all in the least
-
2012-07-02, 12:32 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2009
- Location
- Birmingham, AL
- Gender
Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
Apparently, it's not.
also not knowing the significance of the crimson mantle is again completely roys fault for not preparing for there enemy at all in the leastCuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
-
2012-07-02, 12:51 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2011
Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
Apparently, it's not.
At least three generations of an entire order of paladins who were aware of the Crimson Mantle didn't know the significance of the Crimson Mantle.Last edited by Forikroder; 2012-07-02 at 12:57 PM.
-
2012-07-02, 01:16 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2009
- Location
- Birmingham, AL
- Gender
Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
His father, through tons of research, was only able to find out Xykon's name. He only knew Xykon was a lich because [SoD spoiler]
. And liches are clearly not a common occurrence in this world, since apparently no member of the party knew anything about Xykon coming back through phylactery either.SpoilerRight-Eye told him
miko seemed to knowCuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
-
2012-07-02, 01:32 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2007
- Gender
Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
My list isn't. My list is designed to prove that the label of incompetent is an outright fabrication. Incompetent is defined as being unable to do something, and despite misadventures, the Order consistantly accomplishes their goals.
Attrotiously Untrue. As far as we know, the only three people in the entire world who are aware that Liches have Phylacterys are Redcloak, Xykon, and Soon Kim.Last edited by FujinAkari; 2012-07-02 at 01:36 PM.
Official Incense Aroma Specialist for the Vaarsuvius Fan Club!
English isn't my primary language, so please let me know if something I'm saying doesn't make sense!Continuation of ThePhantasm's awesometacular post
-
2012-07-02, 01:51 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2012
- Location
- Hey, look! Squirrels!
- Gender
Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
-
2012-07-02, 02:03 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2010
- Location
- Washington, USA
- Gender
Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
And Roy's father, the person who told Roy about the Phylactery. Weird thing is, the dad only seems to discover this after his death.
(Origin Spoiler)Spoilerwe know this because they discussed Xykon in Origin of the PC's and Roy didn't learn about it till latter.
Edit: sorta ninja'dLast edited by Felixc-91; 2012-07-02 at 02:04 PM.
Impossible is a biased statement.
"You are what you do. Choose again, and change." --Miles Vorkosigan
link to the thread translating Haley's babel speech
this is a must read for all: Common misconceptions (i am in no way joking, please read it)
-
2012-07-02, 02:16 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2011
Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
And liches are clearly not a common occurrence in this world, since apparently no member of the party knew anything about Xykon coming back through phylactery either.
She knew the bearer of the Crimson Mantle was a high priest of the Dark One. That's it.
Attrotiously Untrue. As far as we know, the only three people in the entire world who are aware that Liches have Phylacterys are Redcloak, Xykon, and Soon Kim.
and the entire order of the stick
and the order of the scribble
and shojo
and Mr. Scruffy
so pretty much everyone who knows about Xykon knows he has a phylactery
theres no evidence that with a bit of research into Lichs Roy wouldnt ahve learned about the Phylactery
-
2012-07-02, 02:35 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2012
- Location
- Hey, look! Squirrels!
- Gender
Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
As I pointed out, the Order of the Stick only found out about the phylactery after Eugene's ghost told Roy and Haley while he was summoned to Shojo's throne room. Eugene himself only found out when Right-Eye told him during a meeting in Greysky City. (highlight text to view Start of Darkness spoiler)
While it's not implausible to presume that the Order of the Scribble knew as well (Soon knew, at the very least), that point is moot, since the only member of that Order who has a half-decent chance of still being alive is Serini.
...what does Mr. Scruffy have to do with it?Last edited by Emperordaniel; 2012-07-02 at 02:38 PM.
-
2012-07-02, 02:39 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2011
Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
im jsut pointing out that its not like Lichs having Phylacterys is some super secret that you have to find some impossible to find sage whos been alive for thousands of years and collect him non-existant compenents for him to do some spell that not even the gods can pull off to learn lichs have phylactery
all it would take is some research from Roy who was too incompetent to learn anything about his opponent but his name
-
2012-07-02, 02:42 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2007
Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
Sorry, can't let that pass.
You're mixing up "competent" and "successful". Although there's generally a correlation between the two, it's entirely possible to be both incompetent and successful at a handful of select things (through luck) or both competent and unsuccessful at a number of things (through bad luck).
As pointed out already, defeating the bandits is a nice example of the former combination... Here's a much better definition IMO:
Originally Posted by B. Dandelion
To be fair, I think we can say that most of the individual Order members are pretty competent at what they're supposed to do, it's the team synergy that often sucks.
In fact, to get into the details, IMO,
- Roy and Durkon are competent
- Haley's pretty competent, although she can be selfish sometimes (not in the best interest of the team)
- V and Belkar are very competent at their core strengths ("killing things" as Belkar's) but they are often too stubborn to do what they should do as team members
- Elan is pretty much totally incompetent (though he's getting better)
If you had a party of six Roys and Durkons (with varied classes, obviously), then yes, definitely, from what we've seen of these characters, I would not hesitate in labeling that team "competent". On the other hand, the OotS, as it is, isn't a team that is that competent, in spite of their good success rate.Last edited by lio45; 2012-07-02 at 02:43 PM.
Offer good while supplies last. Two to a customer. Each item sold separately. Batteries not included. Mileage may vary. All sales are final. Allow six weeks for delivery. Some items not available. Some assembly required. Some restrictions may apply. All entries become our property. Employees not eligible. Entry fees not refundable. Local restrictions apply. Void where prohibited. Except in Indiana.
-
2012-07-02, 05:42 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2009
- Location
- Seattle
- Gender
Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
First, upthread some people were arguing V was NOT going to be an asset, either because V was emotionally distraught or because V's a blastwizard and for some reason they feel a blaster's not handy in a dungeon fight.
If, instead, we agree that those are absurd arguments then, fine; as I've agreed before, it comes down to whether sending would be effective in recovering or coordinating with a major missing asset.
I'm fine with disagreeing on tactics. If you're not a fan of holing up and recharging your assets, ok but look at the likely outcome. Roy seems to be making the mistake of thinking he can outsmart Nale once again, in ignorance of the fact that he's really fighting Tarquin who's using Nale as a puppet; Roy's record of success against Nale is pretty good so if he weren't so completely mistaken on the facts, Roy's Forget-The-Wizard-Let's-Ambush-Nale strategy might work.
But against Tarquin? Malack balances Durkon; Nale balances Elan; Sabine balances Haley; Tarquin beats both Roy and Belkar; that leaves Mr. Scruffy to handle both Z and Kilkil. Roy had better have a pretty good ambush ready, on the order of dropping a ceiling on Tarquin's head, if he's not going to get them all captured.
Yes, some are. Read upthread.
Lucky for us, then, no-one has made that aassumption. Perhaps you should re-read what I actually wrote.
A total lack of interest in arguing over your misquoting/mischaracterizing what I and others have written. I mean, really, it's hard to stay awake in an argument over whether someone in a forum argued that a stick-figure wizard would be ineffective in a dungeon.Last edited by rewinn; 2012-07-02 at 05:57 PM.
-
2012-07-02, 05:54 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2008
Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
I'm pretty sure the extra lines around the eyes are a relatively new addition to the stock set of facial expressions. I haven't seen it used before Elan's horrifying birthday present (though it could be that I'm just overlooking it).
It really does add something powerful, doesn't it? I think that because the characters are so minimal, our minds are free to fill in all sorts of subconscious information.2012 Kickstart Pledge Drive Backer# 12,851
Their: a possessive pronoun like “her” or “our”
There: refers to a place ("the Kobold is over THERE"), or to indicate the existence of something, or to mention something for the first time. ("THERE is a Halfling sneaking up on him")
They're: a contraction of “they are.”
Also: Your/You're, Its/It's, Then/Than.
And... I believe in you.
—click!
C fl epefggj cd gpyb hcex jpz.
-
2012-07-02, 05:56 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2009
- Location
- Seattle
- Gender
Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
I think it was Jack Nicklaus who said that he wasn't all that good, just lucky; and the more he practiced, the luckier he got.
OOTS may have been incompetent in the past, as its members screwed up and acted ineffectively as a team. By the same reasoning, Team Evil was incompetent in the past as Xykon gave up an easy victory over OOTS for the chance of gloating.
OOTS and TE still screw up as individuals and as teams. This is in part because people screw up; that's just part of being human/elf/halfing/dwarf/goblin/undead abomination. It's also in part because OOTS occasionally indulges in comedy.
However OOTS and TE have both conceptualized and carried out plans requiring deep understanding of their own abilities and available assets; Roy's defeat of Thog is a good example and even Elan's successful flight from Nale and Sabine (who under ordinary conditions would be expected to crush him easily) shows excellence in his chosen profession of bard.
-
2012-07-02, 06:03 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2011
Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
Team Evil only screwed up really in the dungeon of Dorukon in Azure city they used the best possible strategy they could devise with the information they had, including a very clever scheme to figure out where the gate was
maybe they messed up in the dungeon, but then again maybe they would literally never get that rune disabled so it ends up in a net gain for team evil
-
2012-07-02, 06:21 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2009
- Location
- Birmingham, AL
- Gender
Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
You're pointing out how common knowledge of Phylactery is by pointing out that the protagonists now know? It apparently IS rare knowledge. Eugene didn't even know until after Redcloak and Xylon talked through it after he died!
Also, as I previously said, There is a huge information blackout on Xykon. Dude flies under the radar. Research yields almost nothing. Saying Roy could have learned this by research is like saying you can become CEO of a Fortune 500 company by going to college. Yeah, it can happen, but your grossly oversimplifying here.Last edited by Peelee; 2012-07-02 at 06:23 PM. Reason: I should not type long rebuttals on an iphone. Typo corrections galore.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
-
2012-07-02, 06:25 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2011
-
2012-07-02, 06:32 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2008
Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
I find it very strange that a person who earlier in the thread tried to paint the Order as incompetent using the following sorts of arguments:
Originally Posted by Forikroder
I mean, they were one delusional samurai away from having their hash settled permanently by someone with a non-spellcasting class. They basically survived only as the result of dumb luck.Last edited by rgrekejin; 2012-07-02 at 06:41 PM.
-
2012-07-02, 06:35 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2009
- Location
- Birmingham, AL
- Gender