Dragonball Super: So it begins - again

[Kato]

So, I'm not entirely sure if there will be sufficient interest for this thread to stay alive but... well, it has begun. Toriyama's attempt to break the internet, or something I planned to watch the entirety of Kai before it started but now I'm still somewhere in the Freeza-saga.

Anyway, not much to say on the first episode... the animation is kind of shockingly different in a few aspects, though, like I'd not recognized Videl. Just in case.

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BotG is apparently not canon, I guess as all movies, but Bills will be the new enemy? That might be fun, as BotG did feel rather rushed from my memory. And then... Return of F as a new arc?! We'll see.

Otherwise nothing surprising, really. I wonder a bit what Goku hopes to achieve by training with Kai who is way behind him in terms of strength but eh. Also, Picollo is apparently a stalker now

Next week: Vegeta's attempt to be an ordinary human?

[Rater202]

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BoG is canon.

By word of Toriyama, the first two arcs(not counting the "intro arc") are supposed to be about retelling and expanding upon BoG and then RF) So, it's not like they don't matter.

[Spamotron]

Spoiler: New Intro Characters

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I'm guessing the female goddess and "fat cat," are Beerus' and Whis' counterparts from Universe 6 mentioned in interviews. I'm also guessing that Toriyama will still insist that Beerus isn't evil even though he seems to wreak destruction for petty personal reasons.

[Rater202]

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Destroying things is Beerus' job.

"Petty, personal reasons" is less evil than, say, doing it out of spite or just because."

[Kato]

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BoG is canon.

By word of Toriyama, the first two arcs(not counting the "intro arc") are supposed to be about retelling and expanding upon BoG and then RF) So, it's not like they don't matter.

Okay, replace "not canon" with "hasn't happened yet" then

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Destroying things is Beerus' job.

"Petty, personal reasons" is less evil than, say, doing it out of spite or just because."

Eh, yes, "evil" is relative. But something being his job doesn't change the results. Many portrayals of Death are not evil because he merely gathers up souls and doesn't really "kill", but if he went around killing because it was his job and even enjoying himself while doing it, I'd have a hard time not thinking of such an entity as evil. But he's still far off from beings like Freeza for sure.

[Rater202]

It's about perspective, really.

If Beerus doen'st destroy planets, the the cycle of creation and destruction will be unbalanced, and universal cycles becoming unbalanced tends to make things suck for everybody.

So, destruction has to happen.

In that context, that it has to happen, Beerus deciding which planets get destroyed for petty personal reasons is, from certain moral perspectives, much better than setting himself as the arbiter of some morality and then destroy planets that don't line up with his unilateral view of good, and from most morale perspectives is much, much better than going around and destroying things Randomly because causing death and destruction is the only thing that you can get your kicks from. I mean, if his drob description requires him to arbitraily choose which planets to destroy, there are plenty of worse judgements he could use than "Is the food good, and how hospitable are the natives"

There's also his behavior from the movies to consider-Beerus doen'st have to destroy a whole planet, and actually seemed more interested in having fun, finding a rival, and teaching Goku a bit of humility than he was in actully destroying the earth in BoG, and in RF, while he refuses to stop the Earth's destruction because that's the opposite of his job, he does agree to protect the people around him in exchange for food.

Really, Beerus, to me, looks like a good example of a True Neutral.

[Spamotron]

Beerus may not be technically evil but he is a jerkass

Marvel's Galactus has the same deal he has to consume worlds rich with life energy to maintain the balance between creation and destruction. We actually get to see a Universe where he was prevented from doing so. Multiversal travelers dubbed it the Cancerverse. You do not want to live there. He has a hard time limit forcing him to choose quickly what worlds to consume. If he waits too long between feedings his Hunger will completely overpower his rational thought and he'll go on a rampage of consumption that destroys hundreds of planets and stars instead of just one. But, he's come up with a logical system to do so that makes sense (Except when the current writers forget. Peril of having a decades long history with multiple authors) 1st Choice: A planet with the potential for life that for whatever reason never developed. 2nd Choice: A world that is nearing the end of its natural lifespan and is close to death already. 3rd Choice: a world whose development has stagnated. 4th Choice a world with a volatile chaotic civilization that is highly likely to destroy itself soon anyway. If he can't find one of the above four before his Hunger becomes too strong is the only time he'll consume a healthy world in the prime of its life.

The Silver Surfer's world of Zenn La was of the 3rd choice variety while Marvel Earth was the 4th. As shown with those two its possible to earn a reprieve if one or some of the natives somehow earn Galactus' respect.

What brings back this to Beerus is that Galactus acknowledges the terrible part of the "terrible but necessary," aspect of his job. He has a solemn respect for all those peoples who were ultimately sacrificed for the good of the universe.

Beerus cracks jokes and seems to actively enjoy toying with his victims.

[Rater202]

Galactus was originally a normal person from a previous instance of the universe.

As far as we know, Beerus was always a God of Destruction.

[Anteros]

It's about perspective, really.

If Beerus doen'st destroy planets, the the cycle of creation and destruction will be unbalanced, and universal cycles becoming unbalanced tends to make things suck for everybody.

So, destruction has to happen.

In that context, that it has to happen, Beerus deciding which planets get destroyed for petty personal reasons is, from certain moral perspectives, much better than setting himself as the arbiter of some morality and then destroy planets that don't line up with his unilateral view of good, and from most morale perspectives is much, much better than going around and destroying things Randomly because causing death and destruction is the only thing that you can get your kicks from. I mean, if his drob description requires him to arbitraily choose which planets to destroy, there are plenty of worse judgements he could use than "Is the food good, and how hospitable are the natives"

There's also his behavior from the movies to consider-Beerus doen'st have to destroy a whole planet, and actually seemed more interested in having fun, finding a rival, and teaching Goku a bit of humility than he was in actully destroying the earth in BoG, and in RF, while he refuses to stop the Earth's destruction because that's the opposite of his job, he does agree to protect the people around him in exchange for food.

Really, Beerus, to me, looks like a good example of a True Neutral.

He also destroys planets over things like someone else eating the last pudding cup. He's about as evil as it's possible to be.

[Rater202]

He destroyed a rock over someone else not sharing pudding cups.

[Spamotron]

It was only after Goku somehow tapped into the Super Sayian God power alone (a feat believed to be impossible) and canceled his planet buster earning Beerus' interest that he started playing semantic games with "Earth." If that hadn't happened DB Earth would indeed have been dust over pudding.

[Rater202]

The planet buster attack that had been aimed at Goku, not the earth?

Beerus had said, essentially, that he'd destroy the earth unless he was beaten by the Super Saiyan God.

goku lost that fight-surrendered.

Then Beerus blew up the rock, and declared that he had destroyed Earth.

You will note that at no point in the movie did he say he'd destroy the planet earth

[Spamotron]

Did you see the movie? The blast was moving at a snails pace at first and Goku could have dodged it trivially if it weren't for the fact the Earth was behind him. The observing Z fighters outright state that the blast will destroy the Earth if Goku can't stop it.

Spoiler: Back to the 1st Episode

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Remember after Revival of F how so many people complained about Gohan not learning his lesson when Majin Buu showed up after Cell proving that slacking off his training was a terrible idea? Judging from Piccolo's expression as he observes Gohan that's going to be a plot point in Super.

[Jayngfet]

I think it's important to look at context.

Beerus had planet Vegeta destroyed. But he only did that, in his own words, because the Saiyans as a race were irredeemably evil. Frieza was also so, so he'd have killed Frieza himself after he woke up.

Beerus may be petty, but there is a method to his madness.

[HamHam]

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BoG is canon.

By word of Toriyama, the first two arcs(not counting the "intro arc") are supposed to be about retelling and expanding upon BoG and then RF) So, it's not like they don't matter.

If it's not in continuity than it's not canon.

I've already watched the movie, so I'm not sure how interested I really am in the show just doing the movie again but longer. I'm willing to wait and see though.

[Prime32]

There was a manga chapter released a while ago which follows roughly the same plot as the first episode but with a few differences.

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Beerus's hosts try to poison him so he destroys their planet in payback. Just before he does so, though, they try to serve him a dish called something like "Soup Asaya-Jingot", causing him to remember an incredible warrior he once saw in a vision.

There's a scene while Goku is training where he's shown fighting imaginary versions of Cell, Frieza and Kid Buu. Also he has only three lunchboxes rather than ten or so.
Goten falls out of the tractor as it goes off the cliff, and Goku catches both at once (using Super Saiyan speed instead of Instant Transmission); he then throws the tractor back into the field hard enough to damage it.

Mr. Satan's car can fly.

Goten and Trunks's subplot isn't present, nor are the scenes with Gohan, Buu or Chi-Chi.

[Spamotron]

What do we want the spoiler policy for this thread to be? 72 hours after a subbed episode is available seems to be standard. If we go by that we could start talking about episode one without spoiler boxes on Wednesday.

[Anteros]

What do we want the spoiler policy for this thread to be? 72 hours after a subbed episode is available seems to be standard. If we go by that we could start talking about episode one without spoiler boxes on Wednesday.

Just use the spoiler box. It takes less than 5 seconds and it ensures you won't ruin anything for anyone.

[Devonix]

If it's not in continuity than it's not canon.

I've already watched the movie, so I'm not sure how interested I really am in the show just doing the movie again but longer. I'm willing to wait and see though.

It's Canon it's just not in this continuity. Canon and continuity are not the same thing.

[Rater202]

Toriyama is rather insistent that everything in Dragonball happened, but it didn't necessarily happen in his personal continuity(He specifically referred to GT as a "Fun Side Story" which instantly made it more enjoyable).

I've been going with the Xenoverse Explanation-the Main Continuity is the Manga and the two recent movies/Super(Possibly both, depending on how the retellings and expansions go), and the earlier movies and GT take place in alternate timelines that were created by Trunks and Cell fracturing space time with their repeated time travel.

[Psyren]

Saw it and I like where things are going. Sad that Chi-Chi is now obsessed with making Goten a scholar too, I thought she'd be happy with just watering Gohan down.

I don't think Beerus is evil, at least not in a cosmic sense. As Rater mentioned, his job is to destroy planets, and it appears to be a necessary function. In fact, he even points out that (Resurrection F spoiler):

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If Freeza hadn't destroyed Planet Vegeta he was going to. Basically the Saiyans' fate was sealed either way, because they were kind of being jackasses.

Based on that, my assumption is that the planets he visits, if inhabited at all, are those slated for destruction for some reason and that it's for the greater good of the universe as a whole. Earth was the exception, he only visited it because somebody there actually took on Buu and lived to tell the tale, making them worthy of notice.

As for the episode, great animation, fun hijinks with Goten and Trunks, and the star of the show was Mr. Satan, who got some really great character development.

[Rater202]

The way I see it, Beerus demanding food and hospitality from the leader of a planet is probably some kind of test.

If Beerus likes the food and the hospitality is good, he'll spare a planet

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Which is why he only destroyed half the planet in the First Episode of Super. Now, ordinarily that would be just as bad as destroying the whole thing, but this is dragon ball, where it's possible to survive being on an exploding planet and blasting the moon to bits has no adverse affect on the planet what so ever.

I mean "How do the world leaders act when a literal god demands food and hospitality" and "is the food good" aren't the worst things to judge a planet on, all things considered.

And doing the "demand a meal" while on Planet vegeta was either force of habit, or him not wanting to tip the Saiyans off that he was planning to destroy the saiyans anyway.

Or alternatively, he was just hungry.

[Spamotron]

Just use the spoiler box. It takes less than 5 seconds and it ensures you won't ruin anything for anyone.

That's certainly one possibility. But there's something daunting about a thread that is nothing but a forest of spoiler boxes. I think it discourages new people from joining the thread.

[GloatingSwine]

Spoiler: New Intro Characters

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I'm also guessing that Toriyama will still insist that Beerus isn't evil even though he seems to wreak destruction for petty personal reasons.

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He's a cat.....

[Psyren]

He's a cat.....

Ding ding ding!

[Flickerdart]

Is this new series worth tuning in for? I enjoyed DBZ back when it aired, but I was just a kid and didn't exactly have much in the way of taste. I do enjoy DBZ Abridged, but I suspect it's because of the jokes more than anything else. From what I've seen, the things past Z (SS4, SS god, and super cyan) are kind of ridiculous looking.

[Rater202]

Is this new series worth tuning in for? I enjoyed DBZ back when it aired, but I was just a kid and didn't exactly have much in the way of taste. I do enjoy DBZ Abridged, but I suspect it's because of the jokes more than anything else. From what I've seen, the things past Z (SS4, SS god, and super cyan) are kind of ridiculous looking.

Okay, for one, SSJ4 is from GT, and thus not relevant.

for 2, Super Takes place Before the Movies where SSGod and "Super Cyan" get introduced, at least so far,

For 3, I don't get where all this ridiculous looking stuff comes from, honestly, I don't-Dragonball has a long precedent of the strongest things/forms being the goofiest or least threatening, in which case the Super Saiyan God form is a perfect representation of that Concept-Goku doen'st transform at all(if anything, he got leaner), he just gains an aura, and SSGSS is literally just a palette swap of SSJ, appearance wise, so really if it's goofy looking, so is SSJ.

Answering your question, however, I'd say it's definitely worth looking into.

[Psyren]

Well, I can't speak for what you enjoy; all I know is that I enjoyed rewatching Kai, which was basically Z with the filler excised, so based on that I think I'll enjoy this. Not a lot happened in episode 1 so it's difficult to judge, but if the above rumors are true and season 1 is going to primarily be

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a retread/expansion of Battle of Gods, followed by the same for Resurrection F

then the slow burn sort of makes sense.

Also, I thought Super Cyan looks awesome. The name is extremely ridiculous, but they have a chance to revisit that now, if they choose

[Flickerdart]

Kai, which was basically Z with the filler excised

I haven't heard about this - it sounds like something that's worth looking into. Are there dubs?

[Rater202]

I haven't heard about this - it sounds like something that's worth looking into. Are there dubs?

Kai's been out for Years.

There are dubs, but the original running ended after the Cell Saga but they started doing Buu recently.