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2008-06-28, 12:01 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2005
- Location
- NYC
Re: 4E "That Can't Be Right..." Moments...
No, that makes perfect sense, after all.
Also, it is an awesome quirk if you take the bull by the horns and run with it - "hey guys, here's another chance for us to make it as hard as possible for ourselves! Let's screw up real bad this time, I feel like a little adversity today."
It could be a running joke in the campaign that your party fails skill challenges. Hard.
Last edited by JaxGaret; 2008-06-28 at 12:02 PM.
You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist. - Friedrich Nietzsche
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2008-06-28, 12:13 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2008
Re: 4E "That Can't Be Right..." Moments...
Remember how I was wishing for the peace of oblivion a minute ago?
Yeah. That hasn't exactly changed with more knowledge of the situation. -Security Chief Victor Jones, formerly of the UESC Marathon.
X-Com avatar by BRC. He's good folks.
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2008-06-28, 12:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
- Location
- Oxford, England
- Gender
Re: 4E "That Can't Be Right..." Moments...
"How did you get to be the captain of the royal guard, Lord Bobthefighter?"
"I started by failing to tie my shoes*, then graduated to failing to negotiate important peace treaties. I failed to detect an assassin, fell in every pit from here to the edge of the world, and I've never solved a puzzle in my life. That's given me a lot of opportunity to practice my swordwork..."
"How about you, High Priest Bobthecleric?"
"Failure brings me closer to my divine patron."
"Avandra?"
"No, Bahamut."
* Actually because there's no Use Rope skill so it's an untrained Dex check...I write a gaming blog. It also hosts my gaming downloads:
Fatescape - FATE-based D&D emulator, for when you want D&D flavour but not D&D complexity.
Exalted Mass Combat Rules - Because the ones in the core book suck.
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2008-06-28, 12:45 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2008
Re: 4E "That Can't Be Right..." Moments...
Hey, if Richard was yelling at me in my sleep, I'd consider myself lucky that I got a chance to wake up!
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2008-06-28, 01:37 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2007
- Location
- Seattle
- Gender
Re: 4E "That Can't Be Right..." Moments...
Was running a little "The System, and You" educational combat exploration between a Ranger/Paladin, two-character team and a young white when we found how crazy some of the dailies get.
PHB 94: Wrath of the Gods
Everyone standing next to the Paly when they blow this cooldown does the Paly's Cha mod in extra damage for every attack roll.
Both were made with the Standard Array and were level 8. So the Paly was Dragonborn and had a 20 Cha by that time.
The Ranger used abilities like Twin Strike or his multi-damage-roll cooldowns to take the most advantage of Wrath of the Gods as he could.
After five rounds the dragon is down and we add up the damage done by the Wrath of the Gods bonus, 45 hp. Then we compare that to level 5 & 7 attack cooldowns and find that it's not as crazy as it looks.
"I know what you're thinking. Did he use all his Daily Powers, or does he have one left. Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kind of lost track myself. But being that I'm a level 15 character with Powers that would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question: do I feel lucky. Well do you, punk?"----------------------------------
"Death is easy. Comedy is difficult."
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2008-06-28, 02:52 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2006
- Location
- cocoa beach, fl
- Gender
Re: 4E "That Can't Be Right..." Moments...
That's true, but paladins do get proficiency in plate. That seems odd to me. Why should the class that splits it's time between combat and prayer get a combat related proficiency get an ability that a pure cmbatant doesn't?
I see how it's workable, it's just odd. Much like clerics and paladins not being answerable to their gods.DMs don't cheat, they just change the rules.
"Being powerful is like being a lady. If you have to tell people you are, you aren't" -Margaret Thatcher
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2008-06-28, 02:55 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
Re: 4E "That Can't Be Right..." Moments...
I personally play it as 'if you fail the check and are forced to fight/etc, then you only gain the XP you would have gotten from the skill check (the fight difficulty XP being equal to the fight XP 'pool').
I am sure that when I explain this to my characters they will be completely understanding.
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2008-06-28, 03:05 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2007
- Location
- Chicago, IL
- Gender
Re: 4E "That Can't Be Right..." Moments...
Yeah, it's kind of weird, but it works when you realize that Scale Mail is really, very much better for a Fighter (who has to move around a lot and make skill checks) than for a Paladin (who mostly soaks up damage instead of dealing it out). Mainly, this is used to give a little difference between the fighter and the paladin, and since Plate isn't all that good compared to Scale, it works out.
Re: Skill Challenges
This is true, until you note that Complexity 3 or higher challenges give experience like an EL (Complexity) fight. So you get the same experience, but in one you aren't going to die, while in the other you might be killed but you might also get treasure.
If you want to balance the treasure, add some bonus treasure in non-social skill challenges, with a failure gets you past the challenge, while a success gets you XP and bonus loot. Quite workable.Lead Designer for Oracle Hunter GamesToday a Blog, Tomorrow a Business!
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Elflad
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2008-06-28, 03:19 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2006
- Location
- Piercing the heavens!
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Re: 4E "That Can't Be Right..." Moments...
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2008-06-28, 04:43 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2006
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Re: 4E "That Can't Be Right..." Moments...
Actually, I think it makes sense for exactly that reason.
Paladins are pretty much designed to be "Knights in Shining Armour". They get plate proficiency because, hey, otherwise it wouldn't be shining armour would it.
Fighters, on the other hand, are supposed to represent pretty much anybody that fights with melee weapons, from pit fighters to barbarians to hoplites to knights. Fighters still get the option to buy plate proficiency, but they don't get it for free, because they get a huge whack of other stuff for free.
Assuming they put as much effort into balancing the classes as they claimed, giving Fighters Plate Proficiency would have involved docking them something else, by making Plate Proficiency optional you make the possible number of Fighter options broader.
Thinking about it, it's another good example of the way that limitations actually increase your options. If you get Plate Proficiency free, then anybody who doesn't wear plate is basically wasting a class feature, if you make it optional, you make other builds more viable.
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2008-06-28, 04:53 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
- Location
- Oakdale, PA
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Re: 4E "That Can't Be Right..." Moments...
Avatar generously created by ukuleleninja
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2008-06-28, 05:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2008
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- Toad Town
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Re: 4E "That Can't Be Right..." Moments...
Gamer avatar by kpenguin. I love the tiny little game pad belt.
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2008-06-28, 06:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2006
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- BFE
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Re: 4E "That Can't Be Right..." Moments...
Back on the original topic...
I haven't played many 4e sessions, but in the first one, I had made a Wizard and was thinking, "geez, that INT gives me an awful lot of AC, and my hp is pretty good. I'm going to be a whole lot harder to kill than a 'squishy' should be..."
Half an hour later, an enemy attacks, punches straight past my AC with remarkable ease, and drops me to one-quarter health. My opinion on how durable a Wizard was went back to "extremely squishy" REAL quickLast edited by Artanis; 2008-06-28 at 06:34 PM.
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2008-06-28, 06:39 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2007
- Location
- Earth... sort of.
- Gender
Re: 4E "That Can't Be Right..." Moments...
You don't understand. Yes, it is true they would not be using a class feature. But it isn't as though they'd be any weaker than a fighter who does make use of it.
It isn't like wasting a feat, or something that you have a limited supply of. If Fighters got the bonus ability of being able to buy up to 4 weightless frogs for free, would it be "wasteful" not to use it?Last edited by shadow_archmagi; 2008-06-28 at 06:40 PM.
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2008-06-28, 07:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2007
- Location
- Where am I?
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2008-06-28, 07:11 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2005
Re: 4E "That Can't Be Right..." Moments...
Thanks to Veera for the avatar.
I keep my stories in a blog. You should read them.
5E Sorcerous Origin: Arcanist
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2008-06-28, 07:20 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
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2008-06-28, 07:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2005
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2008-06-28, 08:16 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2008
Re: 4E "That Can't Be Right..." Moments...
Also, there is a mechanical reason. Paladins - especially Charisma based paladins - have MAD and are unlikely to be able to meet the stat requirements for plate armor via feat. Whereas fighters are far more likely to be able to meet those requirements without having to sacrifice their primary attributes (otherwise known as Usefulness).
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2008-06-28, 08:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2008
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2008-06-28, 08:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2006
- Location
- Watching the world go by
- Gender
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2008-06-28, 08:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2006
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Re: 4E "That Can't Be Right..." Moments...
RE: Fighter/Paladin plate. Hey, give the poor fighters a break, they can barely afford scale armor & both a melee & ranged weapon ;)
I thought it was a misprint at first too. Like the fact that fighters don't start out with a known skill by default (neither do warlords). Having run throiugh some sample sessions (3 times now, and I *still* haven't had a kobold fail the save to keep from being thrown into the sludge pit) I have to say it doesn't really hurt them in practice yet.Last edited by TheEmerged; 2008-06-28 at 08:58 PM.
- Sometimes, the knights are the monsters
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2008-06-28, 09:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2008
- Location
- Toad Town
- Gender
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2008-06-28, 09:06 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2008
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2008-06-28, 09:49 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2005
- Location
- Lost within my mind
- Gender
Re: 4E "That Can't Be Right..." Moments...
Actually, it'd be that there's armor that's too good to be worn by smart people, but I just like splitting hairs
I think the first "That's not right" sort of moment occured when I saw you no longer rolled your saving throws, they were set. But then I saw people roll for spells, so it started making some sence.
Also, I noticed that while you can 'grab' and thus immobilize opponents, and drag them away too, there is no more 'grappling'. It seems sad that I can't grab, punch/beat on, pin, hog-tie, and wrestle all with the same skill anymore.
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2008-06-28, 10:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2005
- Location
- Lincoln
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2008-06-28, 10:35 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2008
Re: 4E "That Can't Be Right..." Moments...
Aww, a griffin! Cute!
.... sorry.
Anyways, it's not related to 4e, but in my first game of 3.0e, my cleric started out with 16 Dex, breastplate, and a tower shield, and some magical equipment for a total of 12 AC. Yep, I forgot that you start at 10 AC, and then add the bonuses. The amazing thing? We ran through a couple sessions before catching the problem, yet the enemies weren't hitting my unusually low AC anyways.
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2008-06-28, 10:54 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2005
- Location
- Lost within my mind
- Gender
Re: 4E "That Can't Be Right..." Moments...
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2008-06-28, 10:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2005
- Gender
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2008-06-28, 11:06 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2005
- Location
- Lost within my mind
- Gender
Re: 4E "That Can't Be Right..." Moments...