OOTS #946 - The Discussion Thread

[Keltest]

Buffyverse it is, then.

But the Buffy camp still had no damn proof

but hey, at least you can change your sig now.

[Everyl]

As much as I thought that vampire Durkon was probably just Durkon with some unwilling personality changes attached, it is kind of good to know why he didn't care at all about his lost heirloom hammer and shield. And it's nice to see that Durkon's spirit does indeed have a spirit copy of the shield when we see it through Durkula's eye, much like Horace Greenhilt's sword in the Celestial Realm.

The fact that Durkula hasn't mentioned it, combined with his line about "he cannot resist providing me with his memories when I call upon them," hints that Durkula has to actively try to pull information out of Durkon's mind. If he doesn't think to look for a particular tidbit, he doesn't automatically know it. This might be the key to how his deception is eventually uncovered - people might notice him overlooking things that Durkon should know about, but that Durkula doesn't realize he should know about. This is especially true if he has to try to go incognito among dwarves, who might catch on to things being subtly off in his reactions to things, like he's some sort of alien spirit wearing a dwarf's body.

[ellindsey]

Skimmed the five pages, apologies if I missed it in all the Durkon spec, but what is that thing in the top right corner of frame 1? It looks like the Snarl, but it is high up in the air. Is the Azure breach, if it happened there too, that big to be visible from this far?

Julio flying off into the sunset on a flying carpet.

[Agnostik]

Skimmed the five pages, apologies if I missed it in all the Durkon spec, but what is that thing in the top right corner of frame 1? It looks like the Snarl, but it is high up in the air. Is the Azure breach, if it happened there too, that big to be visible from this far?

...it's Julio Scoundrel...

[mightycleric]

While I'm certainly happy to know that my favorite character is not, himself, a vampire, and that, if they do raise him from the dead, that he won't be evil, it is definitely painful to see him bound there, and able to know everything that is happening.

While I thought Hel would make a decent choice for a "new deity", I certainly didn't expect her to be the one that, essentially, "forged" Durkula, herself.

I hope Durkula gets staked soon, and that we get to see Durkon back in the land of the living. I also hope he fights back even harder against Durkula in the future, and maybe gets control enough to ask them to kill him and resurrect him. I dare not speculate on the likelihood of that, though.

I must say, though, hats off to you, Giant on this book. Despite killing off my favorite character, and ending the book by showing him trapped and struggling as his body is used for evil, I found I was still continually drawn in and loving the story. Just another show of your excellent writing abilities.

[Grey Watcher]

Well, as for potential for character development, maybe when (and I do hope it's a function of "when" and not "if") the Vampire is staked and Durkon resurrected, I wonder how easy it will be to get back into Thor's good graces? I mean, yeah, none of it's his fault, but if anything's true about OOTS-verse, it's that the Gods, even the nominally Good ones, aren't exactly charitable with mortals.

[Grogmir]

Wow. The juxtaposition between the 1st half "we're too dumb to fail.. Hurrah!"

and the Darkness of Durkon trapped, in an evil eye, by his own blood. Wow.

[GideonWells]

Julio flying off into the sunset on a flying carpet.

Ahh, thanks. Once you pointed it out it became obvious that is what it was.

[noesis]

Since I fretted about what kind of story we were getting when Durkula came on to the scene, I feel like I should pipe up for why the Giant is doing it right here. Masterfully even.

I take it the main complaint is that we're losing the opportunity for character development, now that we find out that Durkula isn't Durkon. But there was no real opportunity for satisfying character development in the first place, had Durkon and Durkula been "the same person." It would have been like taking a character, developing his story up to some arbitrary point, and then waving a magic wand that changes that character's personality all around so that the story can go in a new direction. To me, that's not character development; it's just lazy storytelling. I mean, I don't want to sound condescending: there are different types of stories, and in something other than a character-driven story (which OOTS has largely been so far) that kind of change could work well. But I think the move that Rich has made here sets up the possibility of a satisfying end to Durkon's narrative arc, which is great.

I have no idea what is going to happen in the story, but this recent development actually holds out the promise of organic character development, as Durkon-- the same benighted soul "we" met back in Origin of PCs--is forced to change his perspective (or the like) in order to cope with his current predicament and the inevitable fall-out to come. Will watching "himself" wreak utter destruction on the Dwarven Homelands teach Durkon something about what really matters in life? Tune in next month to find out, kiddies.

[Thanatosia]

My theory on OotS vampires: Western vampires and Northern vampires work differently. Malack, a western vampire, seemed to be under the impression that Durkon would be back to his old self once freed. If Malack were possessed by a foreign spirit and not actually himself, he would know from experience that Durkon wouldn't be the same person.

Therefore, Western vampires, who are under Nergal's portfolio, are the same person as their living selves. Northern/Dwarven vampires, who are under Hel's portfolio, are like Buffy vampires, possessed by an evil spirit.

I don't see any evidence of 2 different branches of Vampires. Malak never said Durkon would be the same once he became a vampire IIRC. Malak DID clearly state that he was not the same lizard he was when he was alive, and that allowing Durkon to stake and resurrect him would be killing the being he is now - the implication being that Malak knows full well that he is not the same entity he was pre-vampirism, thus making any 2-type vampire theories unnecisary.

I think Malak was just willing to sacrifice his friendship with Durkon to replace it with a friendship with Durkula - affably evil he may be, Malak IS still very very evil, so his interest in his friendship with Durkon is entirely based on what social satisfaction HE (Malak) gets out of the relationship - if he can get the same satisfaction from a friendship with a Durkula, there's nothing in his nature to make him want to preserve Durkon .

[MrMercury]

Man, Durkon looks PISSED
He's going to wreck some stuff when he gets raised
(And he better get raised... he's probably my favorite character from the order)

[Anarion]

This is just...just incredibly AWESOME!

Wow. I am in awe if this ending. So much setup, Hel is really cool (and I love her wolf!), in one fell swoop the story of the next book is set in motion, and yet we get to feel good about the Order and how they came our of this.

Also, addressing what happened to Durkon's soul is a bold move on this forum of all places and I look forward to seeing what that bit of flavor has to say about the undead in this comic.

[Keltest]

As much as I thought that vampire Durkon was probably just Durkon with some unwilling personality changes attached, it is kind of good to know why he didn't care at all about his lost heirloom hammer and shield. And it's nice to see that Durkon's spirit does indeed have a spirit copy of the shield when we see it through Durkula's eye, much like Horace Greenhilt's sword in the Celestial Realm.

The fact that Durkula hasn't mentioned it, combined with his line about "he cannot resist providing me with his memories when I call upon them," hints that Durkula has to actively try to pull information out of Durkon's mind. If he doesn't think to look for a particular tidbit, he doesn't automatically know it. This might be the key to how his deception is eventually uncovered - people might notice him overlooking things that Durkon should know about, but that Durkula doesn't realize he should know about. This is especially true if he has to try to go incognito among dwarves, who might catch on to things being subtly off in his reactions to things, like he's some sort of alien spirit wearing a dwarf's body.

He still does have the shield. I don't know about the hammer. You cant see it on his person, but its possible he has it in hammerspace (*groan*) like Elan's lute and rapier, or Belkar's knives. Or Haley's dagger.

[ti'esar]

In other news, the art in this strip was incredible, and I love seeing Julio flying away as a tiny speck in the first panel.

...I really don't want to call the vampire Durkula, though.

[JennTora]

This answers the question I had about where Durkula was getting his spells. I figured Thor wouldn't be providing the spells any longer .... to an undead vampire anyways. But, I wanted Durkula to be Durkon so badly. But I guess the speech Redcloak gave Tsukiko in #830 said it all. The undead aren't people anymore....bits of skin and bone and dark energy.

Not unless Roy's dad has to go to the abyss, find the demon that the human xykon got turned into, and kill it.


SoD spoiler:

Spoiler:

Show

And why would xykon have flipped out so much about not getting to drink coffee anymore if he really never got to in the first place.

Apparently, vampires aren't people, but Redcloak just said that to make himself feel better. Tsukiko was a Mystic Theurge who was kicked out of some of the best wizard academies around. She may not have a knowledge granting artifact created by a god, but her opinion on undead isn't totally worthless. Sometimes gross, maybe, but not worthless.

[Iago]

Durkulus: "Okay, Roy, let's deal with this. Durkon was an excruciating loser who couldn't even say 'the' correctly. Look at me, I'm a new man!"

Well spoken, sir.

One only hopes that Roy, or at least one of the humans, will be able to man up and do on purpose what Xander was unable to do except by accident. Otherwise, Vaarsuvius or Belkar will need to give Durkula the Old Yeller treatment, and my great respect for Mr. Burlew's writing notwithstanding, I don't think that would be nearly as intense an emotional scene.

[Porthos]

Well, as for potential for character development, maybe when (and I do hope it's a function of "when" and not "if") the Vampire is staked and Durkon resurrected, I wonder how easy it will be to get back into Thor's good graces? I mean, yeah, none of it's his fault, but if anything's true about OOTS-verse, it's that the Gods, even the nominally Good ones, aren't exactly charitable with mortals.

Well, Durkon himself might feel guilty over everything that happened while he was trapped. Lots of room for angst there.

Also, as others have noted, Durkon might always try to break through and wrest control for a while. Might be interesting to see him plead with Roy to stake him before Durkula re-takes control.

Who knows. Lots of ways this could go.

[FleshrakerAbuse]

The change in mood was perfectly captured by the sudden introduction of the shadow on Durkula's face. Suddenly, 3-DDDDDDD!!!

Also, what happens when the vampire gains levels? Does the real Durkula gain levels too?

[Naomi Li]

Durkula is still a person (and probably a rather young one). While killing him would certainly be an acceptable thing to do in order to prevent him from harming people, it is still a sub-optimal solution.

Prediction: Durkon's vampire body will NOT be destroyed by the end of the story, but Durkon will have gained at least partial control over it relatively soon. Whether Durkula is annihilated, banished to Hel's hall, chained away deep in Durkon's mind, or in a cooperative timeshare with Durkon, I cannot say, though I like the last one the best.

[Goosefarble]

[Kalaska'Agathas]

The change in mood was perfectly captured by the sudden introduction of the shadow on Durkula's face. Suddenly, 3-DDDDDDD!!!

Also, what happens when the vampire gains levels? Does the real Durkula gain levels too?

I don't know about in general, but with what, at least 17 levels of Cleric (Durkon was casting ninths, right?) and an L.A. of 8, Durkulus here won't have to worry about leveling for a while.

[Dire Moose]

I was assuming the Order would at least attempt to have Durkon resurrected at the earliest opportunity.

Now, though, I wonder if such an attempt would even work, considering the state of Durkon's soul.

[Komatik]

Wait, Durkula really does worship Hel? So the crazy speculators were right? Again?

Well, there was no proof of that until this point. Giant said Durkon was a nontheistic Cleric, the template says nothing about a malign Buffyverse demon taking over the host, in which case Durkon would have no reason for that.

Durkula the Hel-created Demon? Totally should be a priest of Hel.

[Porthos]

I don't know about in general, but with what, at least 17 levels of Cleric (Durkon was casting ninths, right?) and an L.A. of 8, Durkulus here won't have to worry about leveling for a while.

Eighth, actually. But I think the sentiment remains correct nonetheless.

[Keltest]

I was assuming the Order would at least attempt to have Durkon resurrected at the earliest opportunity.

Now, though, I wonder if such an attempt would even work, considering the state of Durkon's soul.

In order to resurrect him, they would need to stake him. the spell doesn't work on undead unless theyre destroyed first, and many forms of killing a vampire don't leave a body to cast it on.

[PaulRedeker22]

I started reading OotS when the Battle of Azure City was being written, and I can honestly say I haven't regretted reading a single panel of this comic.

[Bulldog Psion]

Well ... okay, I was totally wrong about that one. I was sure it was really Durkon, just infected with darkness. But, it's Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Malack was actually some demonic spirit with the shaman's soul trapped somewhere inside him.

So, no character development for Durkon -- just reinforcement of his existing prejudices.

But we do get to see the wrath of Hel unleashed on the dwarves. Which should lead to plenty of interesting, exciting developments.

As I put it once last year:

Spoiler

Show

You better watch out,
You'd do best to fly,
Better to rout,
I'm telling you why,
Durkula is coming to town.

He's making a list,
He's checking it twice,
Gonna find out
Who he wants to slice,
Durkula is coming to town.

He sees when you are sleeping,
And comes for blood by night,
He's a priest of destruction and dying,
So get ready for a fight!

Oh, you better watch out,
You'd do best to fly,
Better to rout,
Or you're gonna die,
Durkula is coming to town!
Durkula is coming to town!

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Also, what happens when the vampire gains levels? Does the real Durkula gain levels too?

It's going to be so long until Durkula levels up that it won't matter anyway. Vampires have a +8 Level Adjustment, which means that (at least for the purpose of leveling) he needs enough experience to reach his next level+8 before he levels up.

[Porthos]

Well, there was no proof of that until this point. Giant said Durkon was a nontheistic Cleric, the template says nothing about a malign Buffyverse demon taking over the host, in which case Durkon would have no reason for that.

Durkula the Hel-created Demon? Totally should be a priest of Hel.

The SRD doesn't, no. Not the only source of info on vampires in D&D though.

...


hamishspence should be pleased to see his talking about Libris Mortis didn't go to waste.

[ti'esar]

Also also, thanks for the book, Giant!