What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

[Keltest]

Also, should I be concerned that you're taking hypothetical examples as me stating things are set in stone?

Azurite law pretty definitely ends at the borders of Azurite territory. And I believe a point was made, either in-comic or by Rich in a forum post (or both) that Wooden Forest is lawless territory under nobody's jurisdiction, where rule of law means nothing.

[Peelee]

Azurite law pretty definitely ends at the borders of Azurite territory. And I believe a point was made, either in-comic or by Rich in a forum post (or both) that Wooden Forest is lawless territory under nobody's jurisdiction, where rule of law means nothing.

If I order a murder in the Principality of Peelee and it occurs on the moon, the PoP is still gonna go after me.

[GreatWyrmGold]

If Hinjo is running the show, this implies that Shojo has already been arrested and the Order have been detained for (re)trial. This particular debate was about whether arresting Shojo and the Order would be justified in the first place.

I was under the impression that we were discussing whether or not Miko had sufficient evidence to justify her extrajudicial "justice".

Sure they can; to turn around how he put it, Shojo is the leader of the Sapphire Guard, but separately the Lord of the City. Even if both are legally authorized, because he wears two hats he can be caught up in conflict of interest which could lead to being in an actionable position without the SG being tethered along.

Like the Pope, aka King of Vatican City? There's a problem with this. Not with the formulation of Shojo's position, that makes sense, but with asserting that business done on behalf of the Guard is exempt from following the rule of the City. That would be like suggesting that the Pope can get away with doing things that go against the laws of Vatican City. (Never mind that Vatican City is an absolute monarchy and the Pope could make whatever he wanted to do legal, as long as it didn't lead to his church kicking him out.) He wears both hats, making his head twice as heavy.

But then whats illegitimate about the Order's arrest, in the eyes of the law?

Depends on the law, but most advanced law codes frown upon arresting people without sufficient reason to believe that they were guilty. Considering that Sapphire Guild secrets would be revealed in merely providing sufficient reason to believe that a crime had been committed (Belkar's chronic murder-holism aside), Shojo would potentially need to break Sapphire Guard rules to prove he was following Azure City law. It depends on the law again, but if you can't prove that you're following the law when the evidence seems against you, that's generally not good.
Of course, if there are properly-empowered courts who are allowed to know Sapphire Guard secrets and deliver binding judgement in secret, this isn't really a problem. There was reasonable doubt to arrest the Order for destabilizing the fabric of reality, because there's clear evidence that blowing up Dorukon's castle stuck a big finger through a pre-existing hole, and that the Order did so. At that point, the only crime Shojo could have committed would be letting someone as smite-aholic as Miko go to arrest them without supervision.

Azurite law pretty definitely ends at the borders of Azurite territory. And I believe a point was made, either in-comic or by Rich in a forum post (or both) that Wooden Forest is lawless territory under nobody's jurisdiction, where rule of law means nothing.

Just because a place is under nobody's jurisdiction doesn't mean laws don't apply, it just means fewer laws apply. You can't do literally anything in international waters, you just dodge some laws. Two points in particular apply:
1. Internal codes of conduct, which have the force of law for institutions which uphold the law, apply. If a Sapphire Guardsman violated laws relating to the conduct of the Sapphire Guard while abroad, he would still be accountable for his actions later.
2. In general, if you commit a crime against someone a country cares enough about, that country will find a way to punish someone involved. For instance, if a Chaev official assaulted and killed a Lawgo tourist, Lawgo would have good reason to insist Chaev prosecute and/or extradite the official. If this happened enough, Lawgo might simply declare war on Chaev to enforce an extradition treaty. Of course, this couldn't happen if the crime happened in an area which doesn't belong to any country...but then you don't have anyone to protect you if the country you harmed decides to prosecute (or, arguably, murder) you regardless.

[Peelee]

Like the Pope, aka King of Vatican City?

I wasn't aware that the Catholic clergy had policing powers among the unordained (and considering all the schooling between the Dominicans and Benedictines, I'm fairly certain it would have come up at some point).

[Aquillion]

We can't really say anything about any of this for certain, since we don't know Azurite city law. A lot depends on how the Paladins and the law of Azure city intersect, but I see absolutely no reason to think they're completely distinct - I would assume that when the Paladins arrest or imprison someone, that is a lawful arrest governed by Azure City laws; when they hold a trial, that is a lawful Azure City trial, and so on.

We don't know the relevant law, but Hinjo likely does, or would at least know the very basic stuff like "was that trial an actual, legal trial with actual legal ramifications if you obstruct justice during it, or was it just a meaningless pretend trial where Shojo could do whatever he wanted", and he seemed to think it reasonably likely that his uncle had committed a serious crime.

As I mentioned above, if nothing else throwing the Linear Guild in jail indefinitely without a trial was almost certainly illegal.

The fake trial for Roy may or may not have been illegal depending on exactly what resources were used for it and exactly how the affairs of Paladins and Azure City intersect, but I don't think it's implausible to suggest that it could have been illegal.

Shojo also said that he took the same oaths as the Paladins regarding the gate; it's possible that those oaths are actually legally binding under Azure City law, and that his efforts to go around them were therefore illegal.

Letting Belkar out was almost definitely illegal.

Lying to or deceiving the Paladins may itself be a separate crime, especially if it was done to conceal things that were illegal or which Shojo believed may be illegal. We don't have real-world Paladins, but if they're considered to have any sort of legal status in Azure City, it's not unreasonable for it to be like lying to an officer or an FBI investigator or the like.

Given that Shojo did not fake a trial under Azurite law at all, but rather independently in his position as head of the Sapphire Guard, its unlikely that Azurite law has anything at all to say about his actions.

I particularly disagree with this. Nothing in the story remotely suggests that the trial we saw was anything but a lawful, legally-binding trial governed by Azurite city law (and in fact if it wasn't, Celia would have definitely, 100% no question raised that issue during the trial, since that would be absolutely vital.)

My reading is that Paladins are simply empowered to act on behalf of Azure City law enforcement under certain circumstances, and that Shojo had certain leeway and powers as the city's leader and the leader of the Paladin. But those wouldn't extend to blatantly obstructing justice.

[factotum]

Perhaps more to the point, the trial took place in Azure City, which, last time I checked, is within Azure City territory. Therefore, unless there is some sort of exemption built into the legal system (e.g. "The Lord of the City is outside the law and can do anything he wants") it was perforce carried out under the auspices of Azure City law simply because of its location.

[Lacuna Caster]

Azurite law pretty definitely ends at the borders of Azurite territory. And I believe a point was made, either in-comic or by Rich in a forum post (or both) that Wooden Forest is lawless territory under nobody's jurisdiction, where rule of law means nothing.

Oh, I'm willing to grant that, in practice, Miko's arrest was tolerably respectful of national boundaries, if only by the technicality of what she was able to get away with. (i.e, she happened to chance on the Order in a lawless area, then rescued the King of Somewhere, thereby glossing over any legal problems with beating the stuffing out of her captives and dragging them away in chains after the Inn scene.)

It's conceivable that if Miko initially had reason to believe the Order were within the borders of Somewhere, she would have deliberately sought out local magistrates, explained her business and sought formal permission to arrest them- maybe Azure City even has extradition agreements with some of the northern kingdoms to smooth the process over. But there's no direct evidence for it either. And she can't easily explain why she wants to arrest the OOTS and drag them back to her city without leaking sensitive intel about the Gates, at least not without some very careful wording and selective omissions.

(And not to beat a dead horse, but all of this could easily be averted by Shojo simply Sending to the Order and then teleporting/wind-walking a party of paladins to escort them back for trial from outside the ruins Dorukan's Keep, thus sidestepping the issue of national sovereignty entirely. But I digress.)

I was under the impression that we were discussing whether or not Miko had sufficient evidence to justify her extrajudicial "justice".

Nope. Just discussing whether it would be 'unreasonable' to arrest Shojo and the OOTS.

Depends on the law, but most advanced law codes frown upon arresting people without sufficient reason to believe that they were guilty. Considering that Sapphire Guild secrets would be revealed in merely providing sufficient reason to believe that a crime had been committed (Belkar's chronic murder-holism aside), Shojo would potentially need to break Sapphire Guard rules to prove he was following Azure City law...

...Just because a place is under nobody's jurisdiction doesn't mean laws don't apply, it just means fewer laws apply. You can't do literally anything in international waters, you just dodge some laws.

We can't really say anything about any of this for certain, since we don't know Azurite city law. A lot depends on how the Paladins and the law of Azure city intersect, but I see absolutely no reason to think they're completely distinct - I would assume that when the Paladins arrest or imprison someone, that is a lawful arrest governed by Azure City laws; when they hold a trial, that is a lawful Azure City trial, and so on.

We don't know the relevant law, but Hinjo likely does, or would at least know the very basic stuff like "was that trial an actual, legal trial with actual legal ramifications if you obstruct justice during it, or was it just a meaningless pretend trial where Shojo could do whatever he wanted", and he seemed to think it reasonably likely that his uncle had committed a serious crime.

Well, hang on. The author explicitly notes that it's possible for Lawful characters to be following a set of religious edicts that they consider to be more valid than any secular legal code and still be 100% Lawful, so the paladins might be willing to follow Shojo's directives as their superior within a religious order even if that abrogates their city's law code. (O-Chul, in particular, just seems to grumble in resignation about throwing the Linear Guild in jail indefinitely, despite knowing quite well how 'irregular' this is. If this is a crime, he's also an accessory to it.)

So I mean, yeah, Shojo does a bunch of stuff that's pretty definitely criminal even under Azurite Law, but the paladins can't really explain what was happening with the OOTS on trial without some questionable assumptions about their city's sovereignty and/or trusting the magistrates with sensitive information about the fabric of reality. And to the extent that Shojo is provably criminal, some of his... associates are going to look pretty dirty as well.

[Keltest]

Shojo is the second ruler who has also held the leadership of the SG, right? I personally would be very surprised if the SG had not been given broad leeway under the legal code to act in defense of the fabric of reality, even beyond the normal limits of the law. Regardless of whether Shojo could be charged with anything, the paladins are likely protected.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I wasn't aware that the Catholic clergy had policing powers among the unordained (and considering all the schooling between the Dominicans and Benedictines, I'm fairly certain it would have come up at some point).

Did you go to school in Vatican City itself? Because that's as far as they have legal powers.

[Vinyadan]

How about avoiding forbidden topics?

[GreatWyrmGold]

How about avoiding forbidden topics?

I'm trying my best to stick to the politics of the micronation in Rome, rather than the flip side of its king's role.
I've always felt that a blanket ban on discussing religion was...unwieldy. Religion touches on so many little things that come up so often, from weird legal situations to the nature of gods (e.g, Thor, Tiamat, and The Dark One). To say nothing of the gray areas around what is or isn't a religion (e.g, the historic counterparts of Thor and Tiamat). I see what the rule is going for, and agree that it's important, but I'm glad that it doesn't seem to be enforced too strictly.

[Goblin_Priest]

I'm trying my best to stick to the politics of the micronation in Rome, rather than the flip side of its king's role.
I've always felt that a blanket ban on discussing religion was...unwieldy. Religion touches on so many little things that come up so often, from weird legal situations to the nature of gods (e.g, Thor, Tiamat, and The Dark One). To say nothing of the gray areas around what is or isn't a religion (e.g, the historic counterparts of Thor and Tiamat). I see what the rule is going for, and agree that it's important, but I'm glad that it doesn't seem to be enforced too strictly.

I got warnings for bringing up real-life historical examples of law, so from the warnings I got I'd say you crossed the line (though I rather disagree with the rule as it is applied, and think it's a pity we can't discuss such things even if we don't enter flamebait territory).

[Lacuna Caster]

Shojo is the second ruler who has also held the leadership of the SG, right? I personally would be very surprised if the SG had not been given broad leeway under the legal code to act in defense of the fabric of reality, even beyond the normal limits of the law. Regardless of whether Shojo could be charged with anything, the paladins are likely protected.

I don't really see how the paladins can have specific legal protections here though, since in order to establish the required legislation you'd kinda have to admit the organisation existed. The Sapphire Guard is ostensibly this big secret society known to the public only through rumour. (Even if certain members seem to walk around waving their swords and going "Hai guyz ima inna saffire gard")

In any case, detaining the Linear Guild (or releasing Belkar) had no specific bearing on the Guard's mission-statement, so I don't see why O-Chul (or, incidentally, Roy) would be off the hook as conspirators to those crimes.

[Keltest]

I don't really see how the paladins can have specific legal protections here though, since in order to establish the required legislation you'd kinda have to admit the organisation existed. The Sapphire Guard is ostensibly this big secret society known to the public only through rumour. (Even if certain members seem to walk around waving their swords and going "Hai guyz ima inna saffire gard")

In any case, detaining the Linear Guild (or releasing Belkar) had no specific bearing on the Guard's mission-statement, so I don't see why O-Chul (or, incidentally, Roy) would be off the hook as conspirators to those crimes.

Its not like the general populace is going to be browsing the legal codes or anything though, and since there appear to be exactly two human lawyers in the entire planet, I don't think that "codify it in law" and "keep it secret" are necessarily mutually exclusive, especially since they will readily admit their affiliation to strangers if theyre already involved.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I don't really see how the paladins can have specific legal protections here though, since in order to establish the required legislation you'd kinda have to admit the organisation existed. The Sapphire Guard is ostensibly this big secret society known to the public only through rumour. (Even if certain members seem to walk around waving their swords and going "Hai guyz ima inna saffire gard")

Have you considered the possibility that Miko, who flips out over removing the tag from mattresses, wasn't breaking Sapphire Guard secrecy oaths, because the Sapphire Guard is not secret? I've always interpreted them as being more like the CIA—they're known to exist, and people know more or less what they do (kinda hard to hide the uniformed paladins regularly riding out into the countryside), but the details are classified.

[Lacuna Caster]

Its not like the general populace is going to be browsing the legal codes or anything though, and since there appear to be exactly two human lawyers in the entire planet, I don't think that "codify it in law" and "keep it secret" are necessarily mutually exclusive, especially since they will readily admit their affiliation to strangers if theyre already involved.

Yeah, but aren't all the senior nobles in the city going to be curious when Lord Shojo goes to jail for reasons that can't actually be explained? I mean, fine- if the 'magistrates' that Hinjo are referring to are really whatsisface and whozit the lawyer guys doubling as senior azurite legal officials, maybe they can actually secure a conviction without raising awkward questions, but somehow I doubt it.

Have you considered the possibility that Miko, who flips out over removing the tag from mattresses, wasn't breaking Sapphire Guard secrecy oaths, because the Sapphire Guard is not secret? I've always interpreted them as being more like the CIA—they're known to exist, and people know more or less what they do (kinda hard to hide the uniformed paladins regularly riding out into the countryside), but the details are classified.

I would ordinarily incline to agree, but I seem to recall(?) there's a panel in HTPGHS where Hinjo remarks with surprise that the SG really turn out to exist (because, for some unknown reason, Gin-Jun has to yell the name of the organisation out loud while he's conducting clandestine raiding operations in foreign territories.)

[Jasdoif]

Have you considered the possibility that Miko, who flips out over removing the tag from mattresses, wasn't breaking Sapphire Guard secrecy oaths, because the Sapphire Guard is not secret? I've always interpreted them as being more like the CIA—they're known to exist, and people know more or less what they do (kinda hard to hide the uniformed paladins regularly riding out into the countryside), but the details are classified.

On this note:

The Sapphire Guard would have been a secret society, separate but overlapping with the general clergy and paladins of the Twelve Gods. All members of the Sapphire Guard are clerics or paladins of the Twelve Gods, but not all paladins of the Twelve Gods were members of the Sapphire Guard. Only those who could be trusted with the secret of the Gate would be inducted.

Reconciling this with Hinjo's comment in 287 seems easy enough: Most people who don't know the Sapphire Guard exists assume them to be clergy and paladins of the Twelve Gods...because they are. It's unclear how many of the people who do know about the Sapphire Guard, know anything beyond "they're a subdivision within Azurite clergy and paladins".

[Keltest]

On this note:Reconciling this with Hinjo's comment in 287 seems easy enough: Most people who don't know the Sapphire Guard exists assume them to be clergy and paladins of the Twelve Gods...because they are. It's unclear how many of the people who do know about the Sapphire Guard, know anything beyond "they're a subdivision within Azurite clergy and paladins".

Yeah, my assumption has always been that the Guard's members all have legitimate ranks within the Azure City military structure as well (ie theyre all knights in rank) specifically to add legitimacy to their operations and to allow them to act as Shojo's minions in public.

[Lacuna Caster]

Yeah, my assumption has always been that the Guard's members all have legitimate ranks within the Azure City military structure as well (ie theyre all knights in rank) specifically to add legitimacy to their operations and to allow them to act as Shojo's minions in public.

Yeah, sure, I can totally believe that Miko, Hinjo, O-Chul et al have formalised public positions within the palace guard or azurite military or particular noble households, or whatever, with the SG being their Justice League alter-egos. But the point is that they can't explain one of Shojo's principle crimes (rigging the trial of the OOTS) without explaining why they were on trial to begin with, which in turn requires explaining the existence of the Keep and Gates and how the OOTS were specifically screwing those up and how that justifies sending azurite troops into foreign territories on clandestine bag-and-grab operations.

(Of course, Miko also seems to talk out loud about how they endangered the fabric of reality, so I don't know how top-secret any of this really is, unless world-ending crises are sufficiently common in OOTSverse that there really is a general legal category for 'endangering the fabric of reality'.)

[Aquillion]

I would assume that Miko is not the most discreet member of the Sapphire Guard anyway.

[Peelee]

I would ordinarily incline to agree, but I seem to recall(?) there's a panel in HTPGHS where Hinjo remarks with surprise that the SG really turn out to exist (because, for some unknown reason, Gin-Jun has to yell the name of the organisation out loud while he's conducting clandestine raiding operations in foreign territories.)

GDGU, page 104. Let's take a look, shall we?

Spoiler: GDGU

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O-Chul: I am Captain O-Chul of Azure City. By command of General Nekh of Blueriver Legion, I order you to cease your hostile actions and submit yourself to my custody.

Gin-Jun: I am Commander Gin-Jun of the Sapphire Guard.

A legitimate, high-ranking military authority of Azure City acting on direct orders from a General, ordering your arrest. Sure as hell seems like a good time to say, "sorry, I'm outside of your jurisdiction, and here's why."

If you see that as A.) an unknown reason to disclose information, and 2.) "yelling the name out," then... well, frankly, I don't even know how to handle cognitive dissonance of that magnitude.

[Lacuna Caster]

GDGU, page 104. Let's take a look, shall we?

Spoiler

Show

Yeah, fine, he was prompted by O-Chul, but it's not like saying "I'm leading the Sapphire Guard" is going to mean anything in this dialog if O-Chul hasn't even heard of the organisation, let alone recognised it as a legitimate authority, as their ensuing conversation makes abundantly clear. And he does yell the name out loud in front of a bunch of random hobgoblins and azurite commoners who are not supposed to have this information. He'd be as well off yelling "I answer only to the Gods" or some such and then riding roughshod over O-Chul's protests.

[Peelee]

Spoiler

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Yeah, fine, he was prompted by O-Chul, but it's not like saying "I'm leading the Sapphire Guard" is going to mean anything in this dialog if O-Chul hasn't even heard of the organisation, let alone recognised it as a legitimate authority, as their ensuing conversation makes abundantly clear. And he does yell the name out loud in front of a bunch of random hobgoblins and azurite commoners who are not supposed to have this information. He'd be as well off yelling "I answer only to the Gods" or some such and then riding roughshod over O-Chul's protests.

Spoiler

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You're absolutely correct, it's almost as if Gin-Jun believed that his priveleged rank meant he was special and above virtually everyone else with little regard to consequences, and without letting reality get in the way of his beliefs.

Are you sure you want to vilify him? Because that sounds like it could very easily describe someone else, gotta say.

[Resileaf]

Yeah, sure, I can totally believe that Miko, Hinjo, O-Chul et al have formalised public positions within the palace guard or azurite military or particular noble households, or whatever, with the SG being their Justice League alter-egos. But the point is that they can't explain one of Shojo's principle crimes (rigging the trial of the OOTS) without explaining why they were on trial to begin with, which in turn requires explaining the existence of the Keep and Gates and how the OOTS were specifically screwing those up and how that justifies sending azurite troops into foreign territories on clandestine bag-and-grab operations.

(Of course, Miko also seems to talk out loud about how they endangered the fabric of reality, so I don't know how top-secret any of this really is, unless world-ending crises are sufficiently common in OOTSverse that there really is a general legal category for 'endangering the fabric of reality'.)

She specifically says that there are no rules against telling them the charges. I believe the thing she was absolutely not allowed to say was why it weakened the fabric of reality. She could have never told the Order about the Snarl, but she could tell them that the gates held the fabric of reality intact.

[Aquillion]

Every time I see this thread, it fills me with a weird urge to create a "What if... Shojo killed Miko?"

Everything happens as in comic 406 up until the panel where Miko reaches for her sword; instead, she turns away and moves to walk back down the stairs, saying that Shojo will rot in jail. Suddenly, without warning, he lunges at her and kills her in one attack, revealing that while he was an Aristocrat, he was actually something like a level 30 Epic Aristocrat and always carried a +5 Keen Anarchic Humanbane Katana just in case he needed to end a Paladin.

What happens after that?

[hroþila]

Then he has to fight both Hinjo and Roy, I would think.

[CriticalFailure]

I was surprised the SG was supposed to be secret, they don't seem very discreet.

I kind of imagine that the normal people of AC sort of played along, "oh, I totally have no idea what you're up to, completely normal, totally inconspicuous guy :eyeroll:"

[Keltest]

Yeah, sure, I can totally believe that Miko, Hinjo, O-Chul et al have formalised public positions within the palace guard or azurite military or particular noble households, or whatever, with the SG being their Justice League alter-egos. But the point is that they can't explain one of Shojo's principle crimes (rigging the trial of the OOTS) without explaining why they were on trial to begin with, which in turn requires explaining the existence of the Keep and Gates and how the OOTS were specifically screwing those up and how that justifies sending azurite troops into foreign territories on clandestine bag-and-grab operations.

(Of course, Miko also seems to talk out loud about how they endangered the fabric of reality, so I don't know how top-secret any of this really is, unless world-ending crises are sufficiently common in OOTSverse that there really is a general legal category for 'endangering the fabric of reality'.)

Well, my position is that Shojo is unlikely to have legitimately broken Azurite law, so I feel no particular need to try and reconcile this. He would probably be ousted from the Sapphire Guard, but they don't have the authority to do anything about his position as Lord of Azure City.

[Aquillion]

Then he has to fight both Hinjo and Roy, I would think.

Would Roy actually get involved in that situation, though? Hinjo couldn't beat a level 30 Aristocrat wielding that weapon alone, I think.

[Kish]

Well, given that Roy is a Lawful Neutral character who is sufficiently offended by Miko to shrug indifferently at someone he considered a very close ally and certainly didn't constantly broadcast "I don't trust, like, or respect you" at casually butchering two paladins, one of whom is Miko but one of whom is Shojo's own nephew, in order to avoid having to answer for having broken the law...

YES OF COURSE ROY WOULD ACTUALLY GET INVOLVED.