This comic is barely D&D related anymore

[Kish]

I started reading this back in 2004 (comic 113), and back then, the only way you found out about the comic was through D&D. I don't think it was odd to assume that a large number of readers started reading this comic because of D&D (Rich himself admitted he broke out of the pack because of it).

But I guess most of the other oldschool readers stopped reading/posting because of the new direction Rich took OotS in. Ah well, times change I guess. We orthodox OotS fans are clearly in the minority compared to the reformists.

Yeah, like a number of people who have responded to this, I started reading before comic #113 too. You should have stuck with, "Fans who want the comic to be primarily or solely about D&D jokes and dislike this plot thing are clearly in the minority."

[Ancalagon]

But I guess most of the other oldschool readers stopped reading/posting because of the new direction Rich took OotS in.

I started reading before 130 (I do not know how much earlier). The first strips kept me in for the rules-giggles, then I stayed for the story.

And what "new" direction are you talking about? The strip has constantly been more and more about story and characters since the first gate blew up.

[Bit Fiend]

Wow, I dindn't ever suspect I'd actually stop lurking and start posting but this thread gives me a nice opportunity to express something I've long waited to say, so here we go:

I'd like to say that I think this comic's developement so far has been absolutely genius. To elaborate: It started out as a joke-a-page comic about rule weirdness in 3.5 - something bound to attract nearly every D&D-geek in existence if done well. And well done it was. But as the fanbase had grown The Giant saw the opportunity to make an actual story out of it. I can't tell for sure since I'm just a pixie before The Giant, but I suspect the comic would have been cancelled around strip #120 or so, if there would have been less readers. But word has been spread far enough and so OotS shifted - gradually - from D&D jokes to a serious story. You can even see this developement in the art of this comic as the art gets more detailed and elaborate as the strip grows more story driven. Those few who still wanted a rules-joke-a-day comic may have left, but the guys hooked from the beginning who enjoyed the story could now spread the word to those without D&D-background so the readership could grow even more. Now I'm not in the PR-business but I'd say Giant, you should have gone there, you would be Rich by now (no name-pun, capitalized for emphasis). This was a masterful gambit. (Still glad you didn't go there, so OotS actually exists.)

Whew, first post and already a wall of text... ok, more like a fence but still...

[Cestrian]

I started reading this back in 2004 (comic 113), and back then, the only way you found out about the comic was through D&D.

Not the only way, even then.

If you were really into webcomics, then you would hear about it that way because webcomic authors all used to link to each other back then.

I've never played D&D but I was reading the comic comfortably before you were (from the first appearance of the linear guild) because it was linked in the old something positive livejournal community. And then I started checking in reguarly when Rich did a guest strip for 8 bit theatre. That was back in 2004 too and by then the comic was on the "other webcomics you should check out" page of hundred of other webcomics.

[Maralais]

We orthodox OotS fans are clearly in the minority compared to the reformists.

I just imagined sect wars for OotS. Orthodoxes, Reformists and Epileptic Treeists.

[Flame of Anor]

I just imagined sect wars for OotS. Orthodoxes, Reformists and Epileptic Treeists.

I wonder, are there Epileptic Tree Banjoists?

[Valyrian]

Don't know if it's been brought up already (didn't read all of the thread), but I would even contend the notion that the early comic (the often cited first 100 strips) were mainly based on D&D jokes.

In my opinion, fourth-wall breaking and character archetype jokes were the dominant part of the humour even then. And this has not changed since. D&D rule jokes are still made, but with the obvious ones already done and a plot that's way too thick (I mean this in a good way) to allow to design entire strips around a joke, it's only natural we don't see them that often.

(By the way, I liked the comment that said that D&D is more about your characters and the plot than its actual rules anyway, which judging from his articles has been the Giant's point of view all along, so it's good he expresses this in his comic as well.)

[VinRaven]

Unlurking for this thread, while I only became a true fan of this strip during the fall of Azure City, I had been reading it on and off for years before that, though I didn't have it as a regular stop.

Maybe the characterizations hit a turning point, maybe I just liked it when Redcloak decided to take the lead and charge the city on his mammoth, but either way I've been reading this comic regularly since that point.

Personally I'm mildly amused by the current background D&D jokes, but if this strip was all about that type of thing, I wouldn't be reading it, and I certainly wouldn't be buying funny shirts for my wife to wear with Recycle Zombies on them.

In other words, keep up the good work Rich.


Edit: And this is coming from dyed in the wool GURPS fan, so this comic transcends systems.

[TriForce]

I started reading this back in 2004 (comic 113), and back then, the only way you found out about the comic was through D&D. I don't think it was odd to assume that a large number of readers started reading this comic because of D&D (Rich himself admitted he broke out of the pack because of it).

But I guess most of the other oldschool readers stopped reading/posting because of the new direction Rich took OotS in. Ah well, times change I guess. We orthodox OotS fans are clearly in the minority compared to the reformists.

speak for yourself please, dont assume your opinion is the same as others. im a longtime OotS reader, since about nr 60, and i like both the gag a day ones and the current storyline strips. it IS possible to like both, and i would bet that there are very few people indeed that stopped reading becouse the comic got deeper and better tought out

[FujinAkari]

I started reading this back in 2004 (comic 113), and back then, the only way you found out about the comic was through D&D. I don't think it was odd to assume that a large number of readers started reading this comic because of D&D (Rich himself admitted he broke out of the pack because of it).

But I guess most of the other oldschool readers stopped reading/posting because of the new direction Rich took OotS in. Ah well, times change I guess. We orthodox OotS fans are clearly in the minority compared to the reformists.

Echoing the sentiment of "Hey, don't put words in my mouth, particularly when they're wrong!"

I started reading the comic while they were still in the Dungeon of Durokan, and it was witty, well written, and unique. However, it has gotten so. much. better.

Rich originally wrote one of the best D&D webcomics around. He now writes one of the best webcomics around. He hasn't forgotten his niche, he has surpassed it.

[Cizak]

But I guess most of the other oldschool readers stopped reading/posting because of the new direction Rich took OotS in. Ah well, times change I guess. We orthodox OotS fans are clearly in the minority compared to the reformists.

Why do you assume people who liked the DnD parts don't like the rest of it?

[Rakor]

For me, the smooth transition from one-off D&D jokes to epic story is what makes OOTS the best webcomic ever. My friend started me reading it just as I started DMing a group, and many's the time I laughed out loud and exclaimed, "It's so true!" The one where Durkon forgets all his modifiers until after the attacks miss: we've all been there. From that point on, I was hooked.

But then the story began to evolve and the characters became more than just vehicles for humour, while still regularly making me laugh with a well-placed D&D quip. My flirtation with OOTS turned into love, and now the highlight of any day is to find out that Rich has posted the latest comic. Especially when it's a three-pager, then you know you're in for a crowning moment of awesome.

Spoiler

Show

Finally finding out about Redcloak's hidden agenda and Tsukiko meeting her sticky (no pun intended) end, for example.

I was on the edge of my seat the whole time.

Mr Scruffy slicing open the commoner is the last D&D-related joke? Not at all. Remember

Spoiler

Show

Roy and Thog's gladiatorial duel? Thog sees no point to Roy's high Intelligence as it don't give him any attack bonuses, until Roy drops a stadium on him with cross-class ranks in Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering).

I realise this is just my opinion and I have no intention to change yours, Ancano, but D&D jokes do not Order of the Stick make. They are welcome and brilliant when they're there, but this is a better story than you find in just about any movie these days, and I love it.

[zonkovic]

I started reading this back in 2004 (comic 113), and back then, the only way you found out about the comic was through D&D. I don't think it was odd to assume that a large number of readers started reading this comic because of D&D (Rich himself admitted he broke out of the pack because of it).

But I guess most of the other oldschool readers stopped reading/posting because of the new direction Rich took OotS in. Ah well, times change I guess. We orthodox OotS fans are clearly in the minority compared to the reformists.

Ancano, I have been reading this strip since comics ~ 60. I learned about it from other webcomics, not from a DnD related source, and it's one of the only webcomics that I still follow regularly. I've recommended it to half a dozen friends, one of whom collects the books now. And I didn't start recommending it until it grew beyond gag-a-day. It was funny, but it became worth telling people about when it became a thing of substance.

I do not appreciate your implication that "oldschool" readers of the comic are widely unhappy with, or stopped reading, this webcomic, or that people who liked it solely for the DnD jokes are in some sense more authentic or original fans. It really feels like a variation on the "no true scotsman" fallacy, mixed with a healthy dose of "i liked their first record better".

This irked me sufficiently that I ended my eight years of lurking and registered. I shall now resume lurking.

[GreatEscape_13]

You know, the whole comic is rather like a great D&D campaign--you start out getting familiar with the rules, having some pretty easy fights, you know; then as it goes on, you really get into the story, it becomes ever more plot-driven, and the rules are just part of the background as you hurtle towards the smashing climax.

Exactly this point. Perfectly expressed.

Cheers.

[leakingpen]

As if it matters, I came in on strip 5. A friend of mine was doing another d and d comic strip at the time and had a link exchange going.

OOTS was at that time a comic i checked every month or so, catch up on. Since the plot has evolved, it becomes my first check in the morning for an update (well, not anymore, as RSS is a wonderful thing. )

D and D is about the story, not the rules. And this comic is about the story. The rules are just useful for humor. The rules, not elan and belkar, are the comic relief.

Moderators, I think we really have gotten all we can out of this rant fest....

[Jay R]

I wonder, are there Epileptic Tree Banjoists?

Well, the only Orthodox Banjoist (Belkar) and the only Reform Banjoist (Haley) stopped being Banjoists long since. Since the religious is now restricted to Elan alone, there's not really a lot of opportunity for schism.

[RebelT]

So, a few things I have to throw out:

1.) I have never played a game (session?) of D&D in my life. I have a very passing understanding of the basic idea of it, but nothing else.

2.) I started reading the comic late---around strip 400 or so, I think.

3.) I enjoyed the comic when I read back through it, despite not understanding a lot of what was going on in the early stages. The later parts of the story, however, have me much more involved because I have a full grasp of what's happening.

4.) Why are we listening to the opinion of someone named after arguably the most infuriating character in a game EVER (Ancano from Skyrim--College of Winterhold, etc). I have to say I took the greatest pleasure I have ever taken in a game in killing him. (This part is a joke...I just found it amusing. :) )

[Michaeler]

Banjoists always think the world owes them a comic.

Now hear this, there is no longer enough slapstick in this comic and Giggles does not approve. Remedy this before He sends His custard golem to wreak his will upon you all.

[Bastian Weaver]

Well, the only Orthodox Banjoist (Belkar) and the only Reform Banjoist (Haley) stopped being Banjoists long since. Since the religious is now restricted to Elan alone, there's not really a lot of opportunity for schism.

What about the orc tribe? They might be worshipping Giggles now but they still believe in Banjo, right? Right?
Oh, yeah, and D&D jokes are not as important as other things, yadda yadda yadda, we love OoTS, long live the Giant.

[RecklessFable]

Weird, this comic is a lot like how my DnD nights have evolved.

We care more about story now than mechanics. Well, except one guy, and it is his uber-tuned characters that made the DM (as well as other players) give up trying to compete and turned the campaign into more about role playing...

I mean, how many tropes can you make fun of in 831 strips?

[ti'esar]

Weird, this comic is a lot like how my DnD nights have evolved.

As people have pointed out, it's a common and fairly appropriate parallel.

I mean, how many tropes can you make fun of in 831 strips?

Quite a few, actually - it's more like how many D&D elements you can make fun of.

[Thidrek]

Just to throw in my 2 cents:

I think Ancano has some valid points. I also found out about OotS through its connection to D&D and the system-related jokes were what made me stick to the comic and tell the rest of my D&D-group about it. Nowadays I think I'm the only one left of my group who reads the comic on a regular basis because OotS just stopped being interesting any more (starting at about the Azure City-plotline).
That the comic shifted from being funny to being plot-driven is no secret, but in my opinion (and I'd guess that is true for the rest of my group and many others out there) it wasn't terribly successful doing so. Rich's plot is ok in my opinion, but it doesn't work the way he presents it. There are countless strips that don't really further the story or could have been combined with others to a single strip. Often after reading the newest strip I'm like "Well, that wasn't really satisfying, maybe the next strip gets better." And the fact that we have to wait days, if not weeks, for a new strip just emphasizes this feeling. If there'd still be a "one strip, one joke"-basis, it wouldn't be a problem, but often the strips are at best remotely funny. You could argue that driving the plot forwards demands that, but I think that's not true. There are other comics out there that achieve both telling an ongoing story and still being funny nearly every single strip, while being updated on a regular (if not daily!) basis (right now I'm thinking of Darths and Droids, perfect example IMO). For me, OotS's story just doesn't work out any more the way it's presented by Rich.
So long story short, I miss the "old" OotS. I'm still reading the comic, but it lost lots of its appeal for me for dropping the daily jokes. The story is ok. But it could have been told in a lot less strips and since the strips are not that funny most of the time (mind you, funny's always subjective!) the long waiting-time isn't really justified any more.
For me, OotS stopped being special (at the beginning, the D&D-jokes hit the nail on the head, it was a comic perfectly suited to D&D-players and quite unique in that regard) and became mostly "just another webcomic".
I still like it, but I also strongly think that it was a sad and grave error for Rich to drop the original concept the comic started with.

[ti'esar]

I'm not sure how the fact that you agree with Ancano means that he's right about the change in direction hurting the strip. There is almost no way to make a work of fiction that pleases everyone, and the thread suggests that a vastly larger number people like that OOTS have moved away from being a gag-a-day D&D strip then dislike it.

[Ancano]

Just wanted to share this bit from the FAQ:

I try hard to make sure that the strip contains plenty of character-based humor so that even those not up-to-date on the latest rules will get a chuckle. But ultimately, OOTS will remain rooted in gaming jokes in the future.

[Taelas]

The FAQ hasn't been updated since 2005. The comic evolved. Kindly get over it?

Also, there are still plenty of gaming jokes.

[Kish]

Just wanted to share this bit from the FAQ:

Oh, now, if you're going to do that, you should wonder how level 7-9 characters cast Resurrection, Power Word Stun, and Mass Cure Light Wounds (the last one as a bard whose levels aren't even all in bard).

[Math_Mage]

I'm frankly shocked that Ancano came back for more.

Re: Thidrek, if you can think of a way the Giant could have kept this comic going for 831 strips based on a D&D rules joke-a-day format, let alone turned it into one of the ten most-read webcomics in existence (which it has been since they started keeping track in '07, during the Azure City battle), you're welcome to explain it.

[ThePhantasm]

Just wanted to share this bit from the FAQ:

An FAQ that forum staff have frequently mentioned is out of date in many areas. And getting it back up to date isn't high on the to-do list.

I don't understand why, simply because you feel strongly about the D&D jokes, you want to assume everyone else feels the same way. Do you have any proof that D&D fans mostly stopped reading the strip back when the D&D jokes started becoming less frequent? There's really no way to prove such a claim.

[TriForce]

Just wanted to share this bit from the FAQ:

I just wanted to share this bit of information on the front of my salt dispenser:

Puur natuur Middelandse Zeezout met molen

its just as relevant as your quote... probably more since this is written 2 years ago and thus more recent then the FAQ

[FatJose]

(right now I'm thinking of Darths and Droids, perfect example IMO).

Your perfect example is a double derivative copy-pasta work who's best joke in the latest strip was a reference to a third work. It didn't even make any sense.