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2012-09-29, 04:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
Not true at all. I know, having ran a campaign which consisted mostly of PCs exploring the game world at their leisure. Surprise surprise, it included exploring jungles for hidden treasure. Here's how passage of time affected their actions:
Since resources dwindled as time passed, this put a cap on how far they could travel with any given expedition. When a random encounter let to loss of resources (injuries, food, beasts of burden etc.), it often lead to them having to rethink their course of action - sometimes, they could no longer reach their desired destination, or had to abandon treasure and come back for it later to safely get back to town. Sometimes, their desire to push on endangered their whole mission later down the line, when penalties that invidually would have been non-issues stacked to a point where success became extremely uncertain.
This all served to create a natural ebb and flow to their exploration, with periods of searching, hunting, retreating and resting logically following from the game rules. My players became more involved as a result, since the evolving situation kept them on the edge and had them continuously coming up with increasingly inventive ways to circumvent their drawbacks. (Such as creating undead cows merely to haul all the treasure back in one go to minimize chance of random encounters.)
What happens during the week they spend healing? The answer to that question is the consequence! Just because it takes negligible time to go over at the table, doesn't mean the passing of time is relegated to meaninglessness.
Let's take my above campaign again. Sometimes, weeks or months of in-game time passed over in a span of five minutes, but the passing of time was still important to the choices they made, as outlined above.
*DING DING DING* We have a winner here! You finally realized what is the sole purpose of any injury system, whether that be HP loss or permanent penalties. They exist to punish PCs for tactical failings!
Mind you, this is not quite the same as punishing players. A player might actually want to roleplay a struggling character, or he might like plot twists resulting from a tactical error. He might have committed that tactical error precisely to trigger this course of events. Tell me you've never had a player have their character do stupid things just to have "something interesting" happen in the game.
As for the choices, if there are two different paths with different outcomes (it's not one and the same what form a "punishment" takes"), then obviously player decision matters. That the choice can be between two evils is neither good or bad in itself.
Again, the sole reason you have random elements in the game is to add uncertainty. This means and requires accepting that sometimes, things happen to your character against your will. This already applies to the HP mechanic: exact number of HP you have left will influence tactical decisions you have available, and it can put your character in a situation where he is SOL."It's the fate of all things under the sky,
to grow old and wither and die."
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2012-09-29, 05:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.
"I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
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2012-09-29, 10:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
Please drop the attitude. Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean deserve to be treated with disrespect.
The game already has multiple resources in it that limit what a character thinks they can do at any one time (hit points, spell slots, magic item uses, etc). I'm sorry, I don't really see how adding one more (temporary injury) would add something new to the system, especially when there's already a rough marker in place (however flawed) to represent how "hurt" a player is -- hit points. Especially the addition of a "resource" that conflicts with hit points (I can already see a PC wondering how they can have full HP, but a broken back).
I'll try to be clear: I'm not against using downtime for players to "heal up". What I'm against is a system that would allow one PC to recover from 1 hit point to 50 in a single day (via even a low level cleric) but telling another PC that all the magical healing in the world can't let you get out of bed for a week while a broken bone heals... unless they had 2500g or a level 7 Cleric. Such a system (in my mind) can't work unless you severely limit magical healing (i.e. "Cure Light Wounds" restores a single hit point).
As for the choices, if there are two different paths with different outcomes (it's not one and the same what form a "punishment" takes"), then obviously player decision matters. That the choice can be between two evils is neither good or bad in itself.
1) Play hurt. Potentially fail because PC resources are lacking.
2) Rest up. Potentially fail because enemy resources have been bolstered.
There is no risk/reward there. I have no doubt there might be some narrative consequence, but you haven't truly presented the PCs with a dilemma.
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2012-09-29, 11:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.
"I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!
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2012-09-29, 11:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
Right, but what's the tension?
If they're on a strict time limit, they'll push on regardless of injury/hit points/spell slots available. If there is no time limit they're aware of (or if the injury is not severe enough that their other resources can't compensate), then they have little incentive to not wait until their resources are replenished (i.e. the 15 minute workday, simply with X days separating them). Declaring that the "world will move on without them" is fine, but again, that does not present the PCs with a dilemma.
Without outright saying "if you clear the Cavern of Cadaverous Doom in 3 days instead of 4, you'll get bonus treasure", short-term injury has no realistic consequence on what a PC wants to do. Now, if the PCs had some in-game system that outright rewarded them for "fighting hurt" (e.g. "Honor Points")? That would present some tension (or if you rather, risk/reward).
Alternatively, make all injury slow to recover from. This would force D&D to drastically reduce the amount of healing available, but one could imagine a system similar to 4e's where instead of receiving all of your healing surges back after an extended rest, you receive only one.
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2012-09-29, 11:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.
"I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!
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2012-09-29, 11:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
5e Homebrew: Death Knight (Class), Kensai (Monk Subclass)Excellent avatar by Elder Tsofu.
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2012-09-29, 02:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-09-29, 03:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.
"I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!
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2012-09-29, 05:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
There is the moral of all human tales;
'Tis but the same rehearsal of the past.
First freedom and then Glory - when that fails,
Wealth, vice, corruption - barbarism at last.
And History, with all her volumes vast,
Hath but one page...
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2012-09-29, 05:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-09-29, 05:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that. -- ChubbyRain
Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.
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2012-09-29, 05:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
Evolution in & of itself is not a good thing. Look at a screwdriver. A rod with a specially designed tip for use of screws. Say someone decides to add a hammer head at the top of the screwdriver. This can be seen as an improvement because it makes the tool more versatile, but corrupts the original use of the tool. Now look at a drill, a drill does exactly what a screwdriver does only better.
So if D&D wants to "return to core" like it says then it needs to do what it used to do but better.
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2012-09-29, 06:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
That's not evolution. A mutation like that would quickly either die out due to natural selection or develop into another species entirely. The latter case might be evolution, but then the two are incomparable. Your point that D&D could become so different as to not feel like D&D still stands.
Also, a drill doesn't screw screws, it drills holes. A screwgun or electric screwdriver screws screws better than a screwdriver.Jude P.
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2012-09-29, 06:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
D&D doesn't want to return to core. It wants to incorporate all the successful parts from all earlier editions, but in particular those from 3E/PF and 4E since those factions cover 99% of the fanbase.
I'm not saying this is possible but this does appear to be what WOTC wants.Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.
"I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!
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2012-09-29, 08:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
In D&D 4e, WotC tried to revolutionize, D&D, take all the problems people had with older editions and take them out of the game. They tried to make an entirely new fresh D&D. There were some good ideas there, but in throwing out all of the old, they left some good stuff behind.
This time WotC is trying to look through all the old editions, look at what worked and didn't work in each edition, and try to make an edition that takes the best of all the old editions.
5e will be a new edition, it's just that this time WotC is looking back as much as looking forward(and honestly, with modular design, they appear to be looking forward more as well)."Sometimes, we’re heroes. Sometimes, we shoot other people right in the face for money."
-Shadowrun 4e, Runner's Companion
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2012-09-30, 11:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
Has there been anything new and significant released about 5e since the playtest went out? We got our playtest stuff, then did some survey, and haven't heard anything since.
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2012-09-30, 11:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-09-30, 02:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
Having HP and injuries not be in conflict is simply a matter of redefining HP. Redifining HP also solves the problem with magical healing. This is a simple task. I can't see a player wondering about the thing you mentioned, because we can understand from real-life experience that it's different to be in "full health" with a chronic injury than without. We can also understand from real life that band-aid can't heal a severed limb - D&D healing spells have always been fairly specific of what they can cure (Cure Disease won't heal wounds, Cure Wounds won't heal Ability damage etc.), so this wouldn't be much of a deviation from D&D traditions. Injecting a bit of verisimilitude makes it trivial to explain, really.
Also remember the posed injury system is supposed to (partially) replace character death. The point being that the way D&D has historically handled death (at least before 4th Ed.) had all the caveats of injuries, except it was even worse towards low-level characters.
Equal-but-different still is different. Options 1) and 2) lead to vastly different chains of in-game events. The dilemma is preference - which PCs want one over the other? Character or player motivations can create notable amounts of drama over the choice. A problem here is your a priori assumption that there will be no conflict between these.
The underlined portion of your post is also wrong. If they are unaware
of a time limit, then they need to guess whether there is one. This is, in itself, one potential source of tension and conflict, because if there is a limit, then option 1) is clearly better, but if there isn't, then option 2) is. I've had great fun watch my players argue and bake their noodles over this dilemma.
If they are aware there's no time limit, then you are correct - they have no reason not to rest.
But overall, your guestion "What's the tension?" can't be answered completely on a system level. It's a matter of scenario design - a job for the GM or adventure desginer to set the table so the choice creates meaningful and interesting deviations in the story path."It's the fate of all things under the sky,
to grow old and wither and die."
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2012-09-30, 06:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
"Sometimes, we’re heroes. Sometimes, we shoot other people right in the face for money."
-Shadowrun 4e, Runner's Companion
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2012-10-01, 05:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
Hmmmm. So Im pleasantly surprised with the Next edition of DND (I think I got a better understanding of the game once I got the second packet).
It simplifies 3es aspects but in a different way. Its pretty solid in my opinion.
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2012-10-01, 05:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-10-01, 06:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
Spoilered because this is tangential now:
SpoilerNo, a drill literally does not screw screws. A drill drills holes. Many electric drills double as screw guns, or vice versa, depending on which bit (and speed and torque settings) you use, but the function changes when you switch bits. If you try to screw in a screw with a drill, the screw will probably go flying and the drill will hit the hand that was holding it and you might need to go to the emergency room.
A drill:
Spoiler
A small, cordless screw gun:
Spoiler
Note how the drill has a long bit with a thread cut out, designed for removing material. Note how the screw gun has a small bit with a crossed head, designed for slotting into a philip's head screw to tighten or loosen it.Jude P.
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2012-10-01, 09:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-10-01, 11:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-10-01, 01:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
On-topic: New Legends & Lore column up. Basically, it seems to be saying that they're going to be writing descriptions of individual spells with a modular approach, so that the same spell list can be adapted to Vancian, Point-Based, AEDU, or other magic systems within each playgroup.
Ambitious. But I approve, in theory -- this hopefully means a much smaller fraction of the Core rulebooks will be filled with just spell descriptions, which will tend towards making spellcasters less overpowered.
Bold text mine.Last edited by Draz74; 2012-10-01 at 02:00 PM.
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2012-10-01, 04:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that. -- ChubbyRain
Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.
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2012-10-01, 05:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-10-01, 08:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
Ha! Too true. I may know tools, but my forum skills are...subpar.
EDIT:
On topic, I don't reallly have a problem with vancian casting, or with spell points. They both have their merits, and most importantly, they have different effects on how I play a character. I like choices, so I hope they get that right.
It doesn't solve the basic problem I have with 3.5 casting, though, which is that the spell power levels are all over the map, and are generally too strong. If they don't go through the spells with a fine-toothed comb, it won't matter how many cool systems they have for casting.Last edited by Grundy; 2012-10-01 at 08:39 PM.
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2012-10-02, 03:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
The problem with 3.x spellcasting is actually several problems. Here is a short, non comprehensive list
1) Spells got better as you leveled up, meaning your old abilities get more powerful as you also gain new more powerful abilities.
2) Non spellcasters usually only had a few options, where as spellcasters had dozens of viable options.
3) Individual spells were quite broken and rarely balanced well.
4) Spellcasters, especially Arcane casters, were balanced by having a weak low level experience to justify a powerful late level experiance.
5) Typically, a spell was as good or better than a mundane ability that did the same thing.
6) A single spell often did several things or had an extremely long duration, meaning limited slots was not an issue.
7) There was very little you could do to stop a spellcaster.
8) Spells suffered from extreme power creep.
All of these problems need to be addressed in 5e, and so far several of them have."Sometimes, we’re heroes. Sometimes, we shoot other people right in the face for money."
-Shadowrun 4e, Runner's Companion