Results 181 to 210 of 385
-
2014-12-03, 03:04 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2014
- Location
- Saint Louis
- Gender
Re: Why do People Hate on Crossbow Expert?
5e e10
Class Progression (Ver. 1.1-ish)
The Cleric
The Fighter
The Rogue
The Wizard
Character Progression
Psionic Sub-classes
Races
Humans
Crossbreeds
-
2014-12-03, 03:07 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2014
- Location
- United States
- Gender
Re: Why do People Hate on Crossbow Expert?
It's really not possible in the real world. Even firing once or twice every six seconds stretches believability. Firing eight or even ten times in six seconds requires either mechanical changes to the normal crossbow apparatus or else superhuman speed. And when I say superhuman speed, I mean the actual time it takes the crossbow to fire after you pull the trigger would be the slowest part.
Remember that firearms are entirely different from crossbows. Even those trick shots who can fire revolvers faster than the eye can process can only do so because they're relying on two simple movements they can drill into their muscle memory. You need a minimum of five or six much larger movements to fire a hand crossbow, and that's still treating the drawing back as being much simpler than it actually is.
If a player spends a little gold to get a mechanical crossbow that simplifies reloading, I have no problem with his firing eight times in a few seconds with this feat. Accurately firing a semi-automatic rifle eight times in six seconds - potentially at multiple targets - would be extremely impressive all on its own. Adding in the reloading speed of a crossbow is just... it boggles the mind. It creates a situation in which your character is achieving such high speeds that he might as well just throw the crossbow bolt.Last edited by EvilAnagram; 2014-12-03 at 03:12 PM.
5e Bard's Guide
5e Fighter's Guide
5e Paladin's Guide
5e Ranger's Guide
5e Sorcerer's Guide
5e Warlock's Guide
Magic Items
Avatar by Honest Tiefling
-
2014-12-03, 03:11 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2014
Re: Why do People Hate on Crossbow Expert?
You seem to be ignoring "You can take a bonus action only when a special ability, spell, or other feature of the game states that you can do something as a bonus action. You otherwise don’t have a bonus action to take." The feat in question grating the bonus action states "When you use the Attack action and attack with a one handed weapon, you can use a bonus action to attack with a loaded hand crossbow you are holding." No using the attack action and attacking with a one handed weapon, no bonus action on that turn.
-
2014-12-03, 03:13 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2014
- Location
- Saint Louis
- Gender
Re: Why do People Hate on Crossbow Expert?
My point isn't that I can shoot insanely fast but that loading a gun is different than running. You can be insanely fast at one aspect but insanely slow at another.
Plus this is a fantasy game where you can fire however many shots with a crossbow with the proper training. This isn't real life where we have specific limitations. Within the game they can break those limitations without technology.
No mechanical changes needed, though if you made those mechanical changes I would say it would give the wielder the Crossbow Expert feat for free. And then all you did was put a price tag on a feat.5e e10
Class Progression (Ver. 1.1-ish)
The Cleric
The Fighter
The Rogue
The Wizard
Character Progression
Psionic Sub-classes
Races
Humans
Crossbreeds
-
2014-12-03, 03:13 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2014
Re: Why do People Hate on Crossbow Expert?
This is a fantasy elf game with magic, how in the hell is that a problem? Are only magic users able to do "impossible" things in your version of D&D?
No, no amount of "that isn't possible in real life" is ever going to be valid in D&D. Fall speed is linear, giant creatures ignore the square-cube law of muscle mass, and people can do ****ing magic. Your physics has no place in D&D when the text says otherwise.Breaking BM: Revised - an updated look at the beast-mounted halfling ranger based on the Revised Ranger: Beast Conclave.
-
2014-12-03, 03:21 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2014
Re: Why do People Hate on Crossbow Expert?
Nowhere does that say it has to be on the same turn. Literally nowhere. And to Morbo yes I am dead serious, it's not different then the logic that lets you fire off the same bow later in the turn after changing the conditions.
For that matter why can't I phase through walls and steel? The rules in the PHB only would make it count as difficult terrain.
What does the loading quality have to do with being loaded. The quality just says that you can only reload once per turn so the feat just means that you can potentially reload more then once, it doesn't say anything about not needing to load ammunation.
-
2014-12-03, 03:22 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2014
- Location
- United States
- Gender
Re: Why do People Hate on Crossbow Expert?
And my point was that even people who can be insanely fast at a specific task can't approach the speeds necessary to pull this off. The best-drilled troops who used crossbows could fire twice a minute. The game's normal rules allow characters to fire five times faster than that, which stretches believability. Firing fifty times faster than anyone ever has requires superhuman abilities, and I want to know why these superhuman abilities only show up when reloading crossbows.
{scrubbed}
My only issue, as I've said before, is with the internal consistency. Why is this character capable of superhuman speed, but only within the confines of loading crossbows?Last edited by Savannah; 2014-12-05 at 09:55 PM.
5e Bard's Guide
5e Fighter's Guide
5e Paladin's Guide
5e Ranger's Guide
5e Sorcerer's Guide
5e Warlock's Guide
Magic Items
Avatar by Honest Tiefling
-
2014-12-03, 03:22 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2014
Re: Why do People Hate on Crossbow Expert?
Please note that 8 or even 10 attacks would require using an action surge and/ or magic to achieve. It's not meant to be physically possible at that point. Just like a Rage pushes Barbarians to superhuman heights (to where even though they specifically *can't* use magic while raging, they *can* fly across an 80 ft chasm), or a Bard's inspiration is somewhat boosting their inner resolve, self belief and determination, and somewhat pseudo-magical, the fighter's action surge is somewhat pseudo-magical as well. 10 would require you to also have magic going that quite specifically boosts your speed to super human levels. Having an issue with the 3-4 achievable normally (1.5 second per shot) is totally fine, but keep in mind that any random guy off the street fires these crossbows at 6 seconds per shot. Compare more accurately with a bolt action rifle than a crossbow as it exists in our world. Is it unreasonable that with extensive training, someone would be able to achieve 3-4x the rate of fire of someone totally inexperienced with the weapon?
-
2014-12-03, 03:24 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2014
- Location
- United States
- Gender
Re: Why do People Hate on Crossbow Expert?
5e Bard's Guide
5e Fighter's Guide
5e Paladin's Guide
5e Ranger's Guide
5e Sorcerer's Guide
5e Warlock's Guide
Magic Items
Avatar by Honest Tiefling
-
2014-12-03, 03:25 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2014
- Gender
Re: Why do People Hate on Crossbow Expert?
I think they reload crossbows by hand in D&D - Grab string, pull back to hook.
Or they use physics-defying winches. Pump Action Crossbows FTW.Last edited by Sartharina; 2014-12-03 at 03:26 PM.
-
2014-12-03, 03:26 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2014
- Location
- United States
- Gender
Re: Why do People Hate on Crossbow Expert?
5e Bard's Guide
5e Fighter's Guide
5e Paladin's Guide
5e Ranger's Guide
5e Sorcerer's Guide
5e Warlock's Guide
Magic Items
Avatar by Honest Tiefling
-
2014-12-03, 03:26 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2014
Re: Why do People Hate on Crossbow Expert?
Yes that's my point, I'm trying to showcase how messed up the logic of being able to fire the bow more then once is via the feat by extending it further. The rules don't say anything against it so why not! It's fantasy so why does common sense matter!
I mean what even is a crossbow? The rules don't clarify so is it just a large sponge I bounce things off of?Last edited by Regulas; 2014-12-03 at 03:27 PM.
-
2014-12-03, 03:28 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2011
Re: Why do People Hate on Crossbow Expert?
You made this same argument earlier in the thread, but I believe you missed my reply: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...3&postcount=98.
-
2014-12-03, 03:28 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2014
- Gender
-
2014-12-03, 03:30 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2014
-
2014-12-03, 03:30 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2014
Re: Why do People Hate on Crossbow Expert?
{scrubbed}
And second, ever seen an experienced piano player play a fast section? Their hands move pretty damn fast. Hell, in the real world people can throw baseballs at 90mph. Does it really seem at all inordinate that someone in a fantasy game can reload a crossbow pretty quick?
And I don't see you arguing that playing a mobile, wood elf monk, which actually does let you run like The Flash, should get more attacks as his speed increases. Know why? Because that isn't what the monk trained to do.Last edited by Savannah; 2014-12-05 at 09:56 PM.
Breaking BM: Revised - an updated look at the beast-mounted halfling ranger based on the Revised Ranger: Beast Conclave.
-
2014-12-03, 03:31 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2010
- Location
- Western Washington
- Gender
Re: Why do People Hate on Crossbow Expert?
This thread is amazing.
I think there's a line between clever and abusive. For me here is where that line is: If a specific interpretation and use of a mechanic gives you utility or power beyond any other equivalent level spell or class feature, or if it purports to automatically grant a resource normally controlled by the GM, it's abusive. If it provides utility or power that is in line with or less than equivalent level spells or class features, it's clever.
For example, Simulacrum armies: Abusive.
Using Cone of Cold to make an ice bridge across a lake: Not abusive.
Firing the same crossbow twice: Probably not abusive.
Using the dev's wording to apply the feat to spells: Abusive.
My 2cp.
-
2014-12-03, 03:32 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2011
Re: Why do People Hate on Crossbow Expert?
That only works if the absurd conclusion you're trying to demonstrate follows clearly from the proposition you disagree with. Here, it doesn't: nothing in the interpretation that the triggering crossbow can also take the bonus action even slightly suggests that it should be possible to take the bonus action in a later round.
-
2014-12-03, 03:34 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2014
Re: Why do People Hate on Crossbow Expert?
Breaking BM: Revised - an updated look at the beast-mounted halfling ranger based on the Revised Ranger: Beast Conclave.
-
2014-12-03, 03:35 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2014
Re: Why do People Hate on Crossbow Expert?
The difference here is that while the rules don't say that you can't phase through walls, or (per your logic) store up 10 rounds worth of actions, then use them all at once to get a 10 action turn (or better yet, travel in combat time all the time, so since you've moved 5 miles prior to this encounter, that's gotta be what, over 100 actions you have stored up when combat starts? And as an added bonus, you can never be surprised, since you're already in combat, and thus it isn't the first round), or things of that nature, the rules specifically say you can take a bonus action at a time of your choosing during your round if granted it by an ability. I'm not arguing that "the rules don't say I can't", I'm arguing that "the rules say I can". Also, if you're going to to complain about my logic, get it right- the worse one by far would be to attack someone with a sword, walk somewhere, drawing your hand crossbow while doing so, and since it was already loaded, firing it using the granted bonus action, as it was not even in your hand when you made the attack (as after all, that is *not* listed as a requirement of gaining the bonus action).
-
2014-12-03, 03:38 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2014
- Gender
-
2014-12-03, 03:38 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2010
- Location
- Western Washington
- Gender
Re: Why do People Hate on Crossbow Expert?
-
2014-12-03, 03:38 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2014
Re: Why do People Hate on Crossbow Expert?
I disagree that the condition to use the bonus crossbow attack is only decided when you make the bonus action, if that's the case then I would ask why I even have to make it in the same round.
When you make the initial attack if you don't have the loaded bow in hand then I would argue you don't get a bonus attack at all to begin with so can't decide to take it later on and thus would not be able to modify the conditions.
-
2014-12-03, 03:40 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2014
Re: Why do People Hate on Crossbow Expert?
Everybody arguing with everybody here. Just drop it and ask your DMs, folks
Last edited by Easy_Lee; 2014-12-03 at 03:40 PM.
-
2014-12-03, 03:46 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2011
Re: Why do People Hate on Crossbow Expert?
I'm not trying to argue that they're identical. I'm trying to argue that treating the rules as a (very coarse) model of real world physics is a legitimate playstyle, and that the viewpoint of those who subscribe to that interpretation is worth hearing. Statements such as "Your physics has no place in D&D when the text says otherwise." act only to categorically dismiss those viewpoints.
-
2014-12-03, 03:57 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2014
Re: Why do People Hate on Crossbow Expert?
Breaking BM: Revised - an updated look at the beast-mounted halfling ranger based on the Revised Ranger: Beast Conclave.
-
2014-12-03, 04:01 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2011
Re: Why do People Hate on Crossbow Expert?
Yours is indeed a valid interpretation of the RAW, but so is the alternative.
Your interpretation has the notable advantage of giving effect to the word "loaded". Giving effect to all the terms is an important interpretive principle. However, it is also true that one tries to avoid interpretations that are better expressed by alternative formulations. In this case, your interpretation could have been better expressed by following the two-weapon fighting phraseology: "with... a [crossbow] that you're holding in the other hand." This weighs against your interpretation. Because that alternative formulation is found in the same ruleset under analogous conditions, your interpretation is also weakened by another important interpretative principle: different formulations should be interpreted differently.
The alternative interpretation renders the word "loaded" superfluous, but doesn't otherwise have any interpretative problems. It has the additional advantage of reading the text narrowly, although that's less of an inherent benefit when interpreting RPG rule text.
Because both interpretations are valid, I'd argue the text is ambiguous. As it happens, we have a tweet from a developer clarifying that the word "loaded" was indeed superfluous. You're welcome to consider that unimportant to textual analysis, but don't be surprised when a large portion of the community relies on that expression of intent to resolve the ambiguity.
-
2014-12-03, 04:04 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2014
Re: Why do People Hate on Crossbow Expert?
I get the point you're trying to make, I really do, even if I disagree with it. And again, as long as you're consistent with it that's fine, which means that Bards can only use Battle Magic if they already have a weapon in their hand when casting a spell, and can only make the weapon attack with that specific weapon they're holding, as you're arguing you must be ready to use the bonus action *right then* even if you're not going to use it, and can't change anything to be able to take advantage of the granted bonus action.
That's a houserule, but hey, whatever works for your table.
Bonus actions are their own thing, distinct from whatever actions or abilities spawned them. They are actions in and of their own right. You're saying that someone can make an attack with a melee weapon, walk across a room, tie a quick knot (but only with one hand, can't put down that crossbow or you'll lose the action!) and then take a shot with the loaded hand crossbow they've been holding this whole time, but they can't attack with a melee weapon, draw a loaded hand crossbow from a holster, and fire it right into the same person in front of them. That, even though they both met the requirements to gain the bonus action (attacking with a one handed melee weapon), because the person was not ready to use said bonus action *right then* they lose it. Beyond not being supported by the rules whatsoever, I personally find that a little silly, but hey, whatever works for you.
Edit: Xetheral, I wish there was a "like" button for your post.Last edited by GiantOctopodes; 2014-12-03 at 04:08 PM.
-
2014-12-03, 04:06 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2011
Re: Why do People Hate on Crossbow Expert?
Thanks for clarifying! If one treats the rules as a model, then I think it makes perfect sense to choose to interpret ambiguities in that model by relying on knowledge of the thing (i.e. physics) being modeled. I don't see how the resulting interpretation is any less "D&D" than any other method of resolving ambiguities.
-
2014-12-03, 04:07 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2010
- Location
- Western Washington
- Gender
Re: Why do People Hate on Crossbow Expert?
That has implications far beyond the thread as I've read it so far (and little to do with Xetheral's point). Are you suggesting that I'm not playing D&D if I rule that a fall from over 400' is instant death and that crossbows can only ever fire once before breaking? Or are you hyperbolizing the specifics of accepting that trying to make a combat system that never strains physics is improbable?