Force Vs. Magic.

[Kyberwulf]

Okay I have seen numerous Threads about (Fillin your Jedi/sith here) Vs. (Magical Guy x)

It all boils down to Star Wars Cannon becoming fodder, and Magical (Doesn't matter What setting, or WHO it is.) Teleporting flying Nuns lobbing Spells with Howitzer prescision.

My question is this, Why does everything that has to do with Star Wars get ripped apart.

Why do Magicguys get the benifit of being Epic Level 20th Level D&D Wizards, when their world doesn't work by the D&D Standards?

[Rogerd]

Okay I have seen numerous Threads about (Fillin your Jedi/sith here) Vs. (Magical Guy x)

It all boils down to Star Wars Cannon becoming fodder, and Magical (Doesn't matter What setting, or WHO it is.) Teleporting flying Nuns lobbing Spells with Howitzer prescision.

My question is this, Why does everything that has to do with Star Wars get ripped apart.

Why do Magicguys get the benifit of being Epic Level 20th Level D&D Wizards, when their world doesn't work by the D&D Standards?

It only applies on worlds with that kind of power. Harry Potter, DnD and various other settings have the variety and the power to do a....great deal. Whereas Star Wars, does not, not without bringing in lower canon (C-canon), or people bringing stuff up massive outliers.

Let's take HP again, against a Jedi they stack up well, against Boba Fett, they get creamed, primarily they are weak against modern technology.

[The Glyphstone]

...what are you talking about? The only vs. anything magical thread we've had in months is the ongoing X-men vs. Harry Potter thread, and an argument about Emperor Palpatine in 1v1 combat with Aang the Avatar. Star Wars doesn't come up very often in Vs. threads here at all...

[Traab]

We had vader versus voldemort a little while ago.

[The Glyphstone]

Oh, right.

Didn't that one go in Vader's favor anyways, because of confusion on how Avada Kedavra would work on someone on life support?

[thubby]

the most powerful force users were vader, palpatine, and/or yoda. and while they were certainly super human, their power was orders of magnitude below the likes of Elminster.

[Traab]

Oh, right.

Didn't that one go in Vader's favor anyways, because of confusion on how Avada Kedavra would work on someone on life support?

I dont recall if it got decided, but there WAS a lot of argument over force absorb and how well it would work on magic or light sabers deflecting the same, and how voldemorts transportation magic stacked up to the kind of speed a jedi/sith could bring to the table, etc etc etc. It got pretty contentious there, with me taking the viewpoint of how jango fett died as an example of what would happen to voldemort most likely, while voldy supporters took the view that he would be flying in circles around vader till he figured out what spells would work and what wouldnt. But there WAS a lot of "Magic is way more flexible than the force, and can do most of what the force does beside, therefore the force is weak and pathetic."

[Fan]

Eeeh.

It's because by and large people refuse to except EU as canon, when it.. really is.

EU Palpatine rips apart planets, as does EU Vader, and Luke.

This is without force power artifacts, Luke is also capable of time stopping, and a bajillion other things.

[Rogerd]

Eeeh.

It's because by and large people refuse to except EU as canon, when it.. really is.

EU Palpatine rips apart planets, as does EU Vader, and Luke.

This is without force power artifacts, Luke is also capable of time stopping, and a bajillion other things.

No, it is because a lot of EU is contradicted by higher canon, and because EU feats crush everything making the debate pointless. Unless you use something like Marvel, Scion, or Exalted in which case Perfect Defence says - Lol! no!

[thubby]

Eeeh.

It's because by and large people refuse to except EU as canon, when it.. really is.

EU Palpatine rips apart planets, as does EU Vader, and Luke.

This is without force power artifacts, Luke is also capable of time stopping, and a bajillion other things.

EU cant be cannon without making the movies either terrible or non-cannon.

[Rogerd]

EU cant be cannon without making the movies either terrible or non-cannon.

It follows G-canon, T-canon, C-canon (EU) etc.

Anything that contradicts is dealt with on a case-by-case basis, generally. Although a lot of the ICS is contradicted as it would make ground combat pointless and irrelevant, same too with some of the force powers. Jedi / Sith would never get killed by blasters.

[Fan]

No, it is because a lot of EU is contradicted by higher canon, and because EU feats crush everything making the debate pointless. Unless you use something like Marvel, Scion, or Exalted in which case Perfect Defence says - Lol! no!

That's not how contradictions work as no official figures are ever given in the movies.

It's just not how canon works.

Unless it's specifically stated otherwise, it's how it worked in the movies, and George Lucas hasn't weighed in one way or the other.

Though I agree on ICS, that thing is written by a complete hack, and the numbers in it are completely ridiculous.

[snoopy13a]

Eeeh.

It's because by and large people refuse to except EU as canon, when it.. really is.

EU Palpatine rips apart planets, as does EU Vader, and Luke.

This is without force power artifacts, Luke is also capable of time stopping, and a bajillion other things.

If Palpy and Vader could have ripped apart planets, then the Empire wouldn't have bothered to build Death Stars. This is why I hate the EU sometimes; the authors simply don't think about the ramifications of the powers and capabilities they are adding.

[Rogerd]

That's not how contradictions work as no official figures are ever given in the movies.

It is actually, as if EU stuff means it would totally change huge aspects og eh movies then it cannot be.

It's just not how canon works.

Unless it's specifically stated otherwise, it's how it worked in the movies, and George Lucas hasn't weighed in one way or the other.

That isn't actually true dude, as stated below.

G-canon is absolute canon; the movies (their most recent release), the scripts, the novelizations of the movies, the radio plays, and any statements by George Lucas himself. G-canon overrides the lower levels of canon when there is a contradiction

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_wa..._Wars_canon.3F

Though I agree on ICS, that thing is written by a complete hack, and the numbers in it are completely ridiculous.

True.

[Jayngfet]

If Palpy and Vader could have ripped apart planets, then the Empire wouldn't have bothered to build Death Stars. This is why I hate the EU sometimes; the authors simply don't think about the ramifications of the powers and capabilities they are adding.

This. I mean I can believe a lot of the more out there non-movie powers(a lot of KOTOR 2, a few things Luke has done even in recent novels, and a couple of tv episodes) a lot of things get so poorly thought out that it kind of breaks the setting.

I mean Anakin was supposed to be this ultra powerful Jedi that we see slicing up hundreds of battle droids and blow up a space station. We don't need to see some new guy who is apparently even MORE powerful take out THOUSANDS of battle droids and tear apart star destroyers.

When Palpatine throws lightning in the movies it's this crazy terrifying feat nobody expects and you can't really dodge. It's impressive enough as is. Giving him the ability to outdo the friggin death star on his own is just cartoonish and destroys internal logic.

And that's why the high powered EU stuff is ignored. It cheapens the effect if every dark jedi can do the lightning trick and you need to have Palpatine blow up a planet just to make him a threat again.

[Fragenstein]

If Palpy and Vader could have ripped apart planets, then the Empire wouldn't have bothered to build Death Stars. This is why I hate the EU sometimes; the authors simply don't think about the ramifications of the powers and capabilities they are adding.

Yes. In episode IV, Vader wasn't powerful enough to stop a blockade runner. He had his men fire upon it, capture it and then send in troopers to secure it before entering in person. It was only after the fighting that he began his interrogations.

In the EU... he could have just crushed the ship mentally and picked what he wanted out of the remains.

His precognition wasn't enough to show that two droids would escape with the plans. He had to capture Leia and try to torture the information out of her.

EU Vader would have been at the escape pods before the droids, and then pulled anything else he wanted from every mind on the ship.

His precognition also wasn't enough to warn him of the surprise attack by Han just before Luke took that last shot on the exhaust port. He was caught completely off guard.

EU Vader would have blown the rebel base and the moon it was sitting on to bits from his private yacht.

In episode V, his precognition wasn't enough to show him that the fleet would come out of hyperspace too far from Hoth, allowing the rebels a chance to mount a defense and evacuation.

EU Vader would have known that mistake was coming and would have adjusted the Navicomp.

Once again, we see him sending in troops to secure the rebel base. He only enters after the fighting stops rather than stomping on it personally. Even then, his precognition wasn't enough to show that the Falcon would fly off just as he got there. Then his TK wasn't enough to cause it to crash or otherwise prevent the launch.

His precog didn't show him luke would jump to his 'death', and then his TK wasn't enough to grab him in mid-air and take the brat captive... blah, blah, endless examples...


I love the Star Wars universe, but I was indoctrinated with the movies. The Force just seriously is not that mighty as seen in what many of us consider to be the baseline levels.

By the same token, take most of the baseline magical worlds. Power beyond measure is generally found. Maybe not in movies like Willow, The Last Unicorn or Dragonslayer... but when have we ever had a vs. thread involving those?

[Misery Esquire]

You wrote ;

The Last Unicorn

I read ;

The Last Unicron

...It took me a minute to figure out what was wrong with my head, and why that sounded like the best parody.

[Xondoure]

Here's my problem with Star Wars and the Force. The setting is so much cooler when it's low on magic. The whole point of the Force upon its first introduction is that it is subtle, works in mysterious ways, and provided the Jedi Knights not wizards with the strength to protect the galaxy. It evened the playing field enough so that a sword was usable in space, even made them better fighters than your average trooper. It provides guidance which allows them to make impossible shots, or avoid the most dangerous pilot in the galaxy. It allows them to feel the world around them and in doing so push and pull the objects surrounding them. It even suggests that there is more to life than what we see, and that through it we might journey into greater mysteries. And at its most terrifying it became lightning with which to torture and kill.

It was not waving hands and absorbing all the power on the battlefield, or crushing starships with telekinetic prowess, or increasing the power of an entire star fleet, or destroying planets with force storms, or Sith Alchemy, or whatever else has come out of the EU. And I like it that way. I liked that this strange and subtle power could be the greatest thing in the universe when used by those who understood it. I liked that with it one man could set everything in motion so that an entire empire would fall (Obi Wan.) And I liked that Darth Vader was first and foremost a warrior without peer. Oh and I should mention, it is G canon that these are the most powerful force users of all time, some of whom are in the prime of their power. And yet the strongest showings go: Obi Wan and Yoda becoming Force Ghosts, Yoda lifting an X-Wing slowly with great concentration, Luke making a two meter shot from an X-wing, Vader force choking someone through an intercom, and Palpatine shooting lightning as the incredibly powerful Sith Lord is picked up by a one armed cyborg and lies on his back doing nothing while he's tossed over a ledge.

In settings such as Avatar where the founding premise is that when the world needed him most, the one man who could vanquish armies vanished, this is not the case. We know almost from the very beginning that bending is something that can and has vastly changed the way the entire world lives, not just the gifted few. It's something both spiritual and martial, which through discipline can move mountains, fight against volcanic eruption, cause waves the size of tsunamis, and allow an entire nation to live in the sky. the greatest feat we see is Kiyoshi severing a continent, and pushing it away from the mainland as a fully realized Avatar. That is a lot of power.

Now take Harry Potter. Seven Years of basic education allows any particularly gifted student to brew truth serums and polymorphing concoctions, use of apparition, a thousand and one ways to move an object, summoning spells, silencing spells, transfiguration of just about anything into just about anything else, vanishing spells, and a healthy amount of training in combat magic. The creatures they face range from soul sucking abominations to dragons. And more advanced spells allow you to brew liquid luck, change into an animal yourself, defend your mind against attack, and read other people's minds. This all not even touching the Dark Arts which can force a person under your control while leaving their mental capacity intact, cause such terrible pain that it breaks even the most disciplined minds with time, kill anything regardless of what powers it holds, create all consuming flames, lethal sword wounds that are nigh impossible to heal caused from any distance, purple fire that causes lethal internal wounds, and so on and so forth. In her first year, Hermione was capable of petrifying her opponent in place. What's more all of this takes much less effort than any use of force powers, which are almost always preceded by a deep intake of breath, closed eyes, and concentration. Hell nonverbal spell casting once mastered, means all of this comes with barely a thought.

In short, if they wanted the Force to be magic with all that entails they should have said so. Instead they made it different, mysterious, noble, and above all subtle.

[Flickerdart]

In short, if they wanted the Force to be magic with all that entails they should have said so. Instead they made it different, mysterious, noble, and above all subtle.

Midichlorians.

[Fragenstein]

... The setting is so much cooler when it's low on magic...

... And I like it that way...

I could not possibly agree with you more. What's the fun of having scoundrels around if they're so overshawdowed by Jedi and Sith?


And -- Kinslayer -- we did Unicron vs. the Death Star already. The Death Star lost... by quite a lot, much to my surprise.

[Wardog]

Here's my problem with Star Wars and the Force. The setting is so much cooler when it's low on magic. The whole point of the Force upon its first introduction is that it is subtle, works in mysterious ways, and provided the Jedi Knights not wizards with the strength to protect the galaxy.

Agreed.

I always assumed that when Vader said "The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force" he meant inthe same way that "the pen is mightier than the sword".

Having a planet-destroying battle-station doesn't mean much when a barely-trained farm-boy can blow it up with a well-placed torpedo, and then go on to lead (or at least inspire) a rebellion to overthrow your empire.

Evidently, the EU writers thought he meant "because with the force you can make multiple stars go nova". They presumably also think a dual between a man armed with a sword and a man armed with a pen will end with the swordsman stabbed to death with a Biro.

[Soras Teva Gee]

To the main topic there's no real difference between the Force and magic, the former is merely a type of the latter. And all of it is all so unimaginatively power that generic comparasions are not different enough to mean much.

However speaking broadly on how magic users are supposed to be squishy wizards and Jedi are magic knights... Jedi should broadly beat magic users because wizards et al are generally supposed to be operating at human levels and speeds. A wizard standing a meter away from you is no real threat if you are any kind of physical fighter because you punch said wizard in the gut and he can't concentrate on spells. Even D&D is supposed to work that way, and in stories wizards don't benefit from being more efficient in the action rules.

Jedi however are consistently superhuman in physical performance and use it as their primary means of combat. It doesn't broadly matter how fast in particular, but certainly up there with the best IRL martial artists simply as a baseline. So for a nominal "fair fight" then unless starting off at pretty long range a Jedi should beat a wizard. For much the same reason a fighter should beat a wizard unless the wizard has meat shields already in place.

Where this changes is when you have wizards that are also superhuman fighters themselves (think shonen heroes, not your western swordmage) or can have continual defenses they keep up as a matter of assumed habit that can stop a lightsaber to the gut before you can utter a syllable. Not ones that can be put up as a spell, but ones that exist as a matter of course and are assumed to be present should you not manage to surprise the wizard.

That is something wizards in 3.5 are assumed to be played as here... but it is not true of most wizards in actual stories. Or even D&D bereft of exploiting mechanics because those mechanics don't actually translate to the world they represent universally. Though depending on setting anything you might call an archmage would be about the level where that starts.

And there are of course some settings where yes a wizard going into anything like battle is assumed to have protective shields up, like Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha where that is the express purpose of a Barrier Jacket which is a standard feature of the setting so a Jedi would need to fight a mage from there with it explicitly down implying the mage was caught entirely unprepared or somehow not allowed to take their universal first action when there's trouble. Like having a Jedi who's lightsaber is off and hanging at their belt.

Also in broad terms outside of head to head fights magic is much much better for its greater variety and effects. A Sith can shoot some shortish-range lightning, a wizard can shoot a fire that will go right through that lightnig from longer range and blow the Sith up real dead like.

It follows G-canon, T-canon, C-canon (EU) etc.

Anything that contradicts is dealt with on a case-by-case basis, generally. Although a lot of the ICS is contradicted as it would make ground combat pointless and irrelevant, same too with some of the force powers. Jedi / Sith would never get killed by blasters.

There not so irreconcilable as you seem to be claiming. Unless G-canon specifies explicitly something can't be done (which is frankly never in the movies to my knowledge and with at most a few cases from novelizations) then there is not an automatic contradiction. Most of the contradictions are in events not abilities.

The problem is that versus thread "logic" to its proponents assumes all abilities displayed once or twice in the whole of what they can selective muster are 150% effective 200% of the time. When the truth is that no one in stories is immune to messing up, being surprised, or being overwhelmed.

In actual stories there's no taking 10 with a high enough bonus to guarantee success. Yet versus thread proponents generally argue like they are sitting around the game table and have twenty minutes to sun-tzu up every response while arguing successfully with the GM and looking at the other guys character sheet.

[Kyberwulf]

Okay, I get that the Movies messed up the Clone Wars, and the Empire era stuff. The Times after, and way before it should still count, shouldn't it?

[Rogerd]

There not so irreconcilable as you seem to be claiming. Unless G-canon specifies explicitly something can't be done (which is frankly never in the movies to my knowledge and with at most a few cases from novelizations) then there is not an automatic contradiction. And is very rarely so.

Not true. If it contradicts, i.e. changes aspects of the films then it is overriden. For example Wankatine creating force storms that can send a fleet of ships into the sun, or even a planet; Vader being able to send out waves of TK when he struggles with the most basic things - e.g. fight at Cloud City. He even had to lower his saber to move things, concentrate, same as Yoda in the TESB. Yet here we see these same characters perform feats so outlandish that it would have altered the course of the film. Then it is contradicted.

Or feats like forcefields comprised of the force, mental shields that protect their mind from tampering. Yet we clearly see Dooku, Palps read others minds so easily, sense their emotions when by rights they should not be able to.

The problem is that versus thread "logic" to its proponents assumes all abilities displayed once or twice in the whole of what they can selective muster are 150% effective 200% of the time. When the truth is that no one in stories is immune to messing up, being surprised, or being overwhelmed.

Which then conflicts with EU, as we rarely see that happen.

[Fan]

Then all of EU is non canon, which isn't true, if it was it'd be N canon.

[Rogerd]

Then all of EU is non canon, which isn't true, if it was it'd be N canon.

You're not reading what I'm typing, it is done on a case-by-case basis. But a lot of EU is contradicted without a doubt, maintianed by those diehard fans that have to have biggatons.

Bigger powers, bigger guns. It is very sad.

Read through some of the awesome and lengthy posts by people in this thread. They go into detail more than I have done.

[Misery Esquire]

And -- Kinslayer -- we did Unicron vs. the Death Star already. The Death Star lost... by quite a lot, much to my surprise.

No, no. That would be a crossover. I meant Unicron in place of the unicorn in The Last Unicorn story.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Not true. If it contradicts, i.e. changes aspects of the films then it is overriden. For example Wankatine creating force storms that can send a fleet of ships into the sun, or even a planet; Vader being able to send out waves of TK when he struggles with the most basic things - e.g. fight at Cloud City. He even had to lower his saber to move things, concentrate, same as Yoda in the TESB. Yet here we see these same characters perform feats so outlandish that it would have altered the course of the film. Then it is contradicted.

Or feats like forcefields comprised of the force, mental shields that protect their mind from tampering. Yet we clearly see Dooku, Palps read others minds so easily, sense their emotions when by rights they should not be able to.

I'm not seeing a contradiction here unless the Cloud City fight thing is coming from a later mention by Luke somewhere down the road or you are talking about the movie novelization versus the movie itself which are both G-Canon and arguably here the book would still be an additional detail not a contradiction.

Unlike say the original novelization having Luke in Blue, not Red squadron.

The rest are not contradictions. Inconsistent performance perhaps, but that's a different issue and is what I was talking about in the bad assumptions made by versus threads that don't allow for the concept of inconsistent performance to exist, a very stark view of fiction.

That's of course even granting there is inconsistent. For the clearest example here: Palps big force-storms. They wouldn't help in any case presented in the movies. There is no contradiction in him not using them, because why show himself so openly when he running both sides of the conflict already. That covers the prequels leaving him only involved in RotJ, where his overconfidence is the entire point. Why exert effort when he has an invincible fully operational battle-station to do all the work for him.

The entire point of the unique canon tiers in SW is to allow things like Force storms to be simply reconciled and still count. Its a permissive system by design, though there are of course rough edges.

However until Lucas makes Holiday Special 2: Wookie Boogaloo set when the main cast is all old and where Chewie is still alive, Han and Leia never had Jacen/Jaina/Anakin, and Mara Jade never existed there is no reason to disregard the EU except where specifically nessecary.

[Aotrs Commander]

However until Lucas makes Holiday Special 2: Wookie Boogaloo set when the main cast is all old and where Chewie is still alive, Han and Leia never had Jacen/Jaina/Anakin, and Mara Jade never existed there is no reason to disregard the EU except where specifically nessecary.

Particularly as the best bits of the EU are arguably the best bits of Star Wars, period *cough*ThrawnTrilogy*cough*TIE Fighter*cough*.

On the other hand, the worst bits of Star Wars are also in the EU!

[Yora]

If Palpy and Vader could have ripped apart planets, then the Empire wouldn't have bothered to build Death Stars. This is why I hate the EU sometimes; the authors simply don't think about the ramifications of the powers and capabilities they are adding.

The worst thing is, that the author of the prequel movies is guilty of the same thing.
George Lucas is a great producer, but doesn't know anything about directing and scriptwriting. And while he made the initial draft for the first movies, there were dozens of other people involved who made the setting what it is.