The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

[Celestia]

And i might agree on that evening out of all attributes were equal, but unfortunately they are not. People dont divide their points out evenly in the case of point buy. They prioritise attributes they need over the ones they dont. So of course, being able to add 6 to the attributes you care about, in return for taking 6 from the ones you dont, is a massive advantage.

So when comparing water orcs to humans the increased strenght means the water orc will be superior in most cases. The light sensitivity comes with darkvision to compensate, and fire vulnerability is hardly significant.

What kind of character doesn't care about skill points or will saves? The only penalty that doesn't hurt is the charisma, and dwarves have the same non-perishable alt1 without losing the other two mental stats.

Dwarves also get darkvision without the light sensitivity.

I love how you say that taking 50% more damage doesn't matter. After all, fire damage is incredibly rare, isn't it? Oh wait.

Water orcs get few benefits, and every single one is counterbalanced by a detriment. They aren't even particularly strong compared to other +0 races, and yet you want to call them +1? That's hilarious.

[Nifft]

Slaadi have enough RHD that I'm not finding problems with the +1 or +0 ranges proposed.

With that fast healing, they could be fun Crusaders.

[TotallyNotEvil]

I agree with Lord Khaine's assessments, Red and Blue especially need a higher LA.

Their HD:CR ratio is specially telling, Red, Blue, Green and Grey are all 1:1 here. Outsider HD don't exactly hurt.

Fast Healing 5 is pretty damn hard to get. Immunity to sonic is neat, and while low, resistances are resistances. Plenty of templates give much less in that area.

Counting the size increase:

-Reds get +18 STR, +2 DEX, +10 CON, +10 NA +10 STR, +4 DEX, +6 CON, +8 NA. That's a good boost, especially with built-in Pounce and three natural attacks. Yeah, -4 INT and WIS and -2 CHA aren't good, but who cares, when you are as strong as an adult Dragon?

7 HD and CR 7, large size, has reach.

I'd say +2 LA is an easy choice Due to misscalculating the ability score adjustments, it's not a given anymore. Still, I do maintain +2 LA here. You are easily on par, or better, than a Barbarian 9. Much stronger and harder to hit, significantly toughter. These kind of ability score boosts will keep on giving. Chassis is great, Pouce and three natural attacks are even better.

-Blues keep all the good things from Reds, no penalty to CHA, same -4 to INT and WIS, +20 STR, +2 DEX, +12 CON, +11 NA +12 STR, +4 DEX, +8 CON, +9 NA. You are at the very least on-par with a Red that took a class level, if not better, due to how good you racial HD is. 8 HD, CR 8.

But wait, there is more! At-will Hold Person and Telekinesis! And Passwall, which sounds like it's there just for kicks, but that's two fifth level Wizard spells at-will. Saves are Charisma-based, you have no bonuses, but no penalties there either.

You thought it was good? What about five natural attacks, 4*2d6 and a bite for 2d8? Of course, those four claws deal your full strenght in damage.

No Pounce, unfortunately, but that won't take long to remedy now, will it? Even then, you don't exactly need it to be good.

Here's a very strong +2 LA. Even after correcting the calculation for ability score mods. Still Large, still has Reach.

-Greens keep to the trend, another HD, another point of CR. The Natural Attacks Train slows down a bit, back to two claws and a bite, and the claws don't hit like greatswords anymore. Upsides are no penalties to INT or WIS, a slight bonus to CHA, and another buckeload of NA: +20 STR, +12 CON, +15 NA +12 STR, +2 DEX, +8 CON, +13 NA, +2 CHA. So, far, it looks a match for Blues, the lack of the monstrous claw attacks made up by a much easier time getting use out of those sweet 8+Int skill points, mostly same stats, a good bit more NA, if slightly less DEX. Less offense, more utility. You are still at full bab here with +12 Strenght, so hey, "less" doesn't mean "little" here. Extra HD also gets you a new feat on top of Blues. I think it would be a better fit to most games than the Blues, honestly, no one will notice how the gory chunks the enemies are left in are slightly smaller than your Blue friend's target.

The SLAs, however, change the game.

Fear at-will is great. Chaos Hammer, now at-will, becomes significantly more appealing, as it's still a 20ft radius burst with a Slow rider effect. At-will See Invisibility and Protection from X is something many of my characters wished they had, and at-will Detect Thoughts and Shatter are similarly handy. The 3/day SLAs, Dispel Law, Deeper Darkness and Fireball, aren't outstanding, but still, a fifth level spell and two third level ones, with a significant number of castings per day, that's solid.

It's a well-balanced +2, IMO. You will be hitting AC in the 40s without even trying, you are one mere point behind on the base save for those with a good progression, of which you have all three saves as, and you will be probably rocking a +12~+14 STR mod. You will have no problem being a melee blender, a strong warlock and a full-on skill monkey at the same time.

Eeven after correcting the stats, I again maintain the LA. It's a well rounded character on its own, now less ridiculous in sheer strenght. Still Large, has reach.

-Greys, 10 HD and CR 10. Downgraded to Medium, it has a great stat spred of STR +8, DEX +6, CON +10, INT +4, WIS +4 and CHA +4. NA goes down to a more manageable, if still high, +11, and they get DR10/Lawful on top of the usual Slaad package of Fast Healing and Resistances.

Two good Claws and the same great Bite attack, much less STR (if still a very sizeable bonus) and no Reach makes them the weakest of the Slaad combatants so far, but they have the highest HD yet, and most notably, a big positive mod to INT. They'd make for fantastic skill-monkey types, their defences are still strong, with a fat DEX bonus and still very high NA, their Constitution is close to their Large cousins, and their DR pretty sweet.

SLA-wise, they are a straight upgrande from Greens for the most part, Magic Circle instead of Protection from X, at-will Invisibility to complement the package, Lightning Bolt for an alternative to Chaos Hammer. Animate Objects is an odd one, a Huge Animated Object is more or less on par with SNA IV~V, I'd say, Fly is handy, Dispel Law is strong, and Power Word Stun makes for a nasty ace-in-the-hole.

Still great defenses, but only decent offense, competitive SLAs, great chassis for skills. Bonus to your SLA's DC.

I think we might be generous and say it's comparable to the Green fellow, and give it +1 LA. It's the better pseudo-caster and skill monkey of the two and has an extra HD, but I do believe they compete at the same level. The better SLAs don't fully make up for the sheer devastation wrought by a strenght in the 40s.

-Death Slaad, 15 HD and CR 13. Now, these bear examining with more care.

Medium, two claws and a bite that are nonetheless off the charts (3d6 claws and 2d10 bite on a medium creature). +12 NA is much more reasonable at ECL15+, but still sizeable. As far as chassis goes, you are winning at life with 15 Outsider HD.

Stat mods are STR +10, DEX +12, CON +10, INT +8, WIS +8 and CHA +8. On top of the Grey's goodies (DR, Resistances, Fast Healing), you get 100ft of telepathy. Can you say "Mindsight"? Stat spread is, of course, nothing to scoff at, but we are reaching levels when you need more than these to stay competitive. Of course, someone rocking 12~14 skill points per level isn't exactly without a role. Your defenses are still good, if not great, being comparable to other Slaads, only now more level-appropriate.

I'd call it an easy +0 if that were it. Decent melee, good defences, great skill monkey. But we still haven't gotten to the SLAs:
animate objects, chaos hammer, deeper darkness, detect magic, dispel law, fear, finger of death, fireball, fly, identify, invisibility, magic circle against law, see invisibility, shatter; 3/day—circle of death , cloak of chaos , word of chaos ;
1/day—implosion, power word blind.

Now ain't that quite the list. Very coherent with previous Slaad progressions, upgrading usual spells and adding a next tier. Circle of Death, Cloak of Chaos, Word of Chaos. Three high level, high power spells, each castable a number of times equal to or greater than a caster of the same level. 1/day Implosion and Power Word Blind are a very juicy cherry on top of this cake.

Not to mention that at-will Finger of Death that sneaked by.

The saves are Charisma based, of which you have a racial +8 bonus, the high level spells are all great, the at-wills are useful and add a good deal of versatility to the character.

I'd say a LA of +1 wouldn't be out of order. It's a very capable pseudo-caster, has all-around good ability mods, comprehensive SLAs with some powerhouse additions, good defences, great chassis, very capable as a skill monkey, makes an acceptable secondary melee with +15 BAB, +10 STR and three strong natural attacks, besides the Stun ability.

[Celestia]

Words

I agree with this assessment.

[ZamielVanWeber]

+1 seems good for the gray since that will make it difficult to acquire a 10 level Prc even with buyoff and death s awesome for +0 but will struggle to do much beyond that. It does seem to compare well to martial 15.

[lord_khaine]

What kind of character doesn't care about skill points or will saves? The only penalty that doesn't hurt is the charisma, and dwarves have the same non-perishable alt1 without losing the other two mental stats.

Dwarves also get darkvision without the light sensitivity.

I love how you say that taking 50% more damage doesn't matter. After all, fire damage is incredibly rare, isn't it? Oh wait.

Water orcs get few benefits, and every single one is counterbalanced by a detriment. They aren't even particularly strong compared to other +0 races, and yet you want to call them +1? That's hilarious.

The sort of character whose main joy in life is to crush his enemies, and see them driven before him?
And yeah, dwarfs are one of the stronger fighting races, though they still take a hit to base speed. And they dont get the +4 main stat.

Besides that, taking 50% more fire damage would indeed suck a lot.
Thankfully, you are wrong, and they dont take 50% increased fire damage.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Evil's post confuses me. I looked up green salad and got a Stat pan of +12 Str, +2 Dex, +8 Con, +2 Cha and +13 NA, which are radically different numbers. Blue's are +12 Str, +4 Dex, +8 Con, -4 Int and Wis with +9 NA. Red's have +10 Str, +4 Dex, +6 Con, -4 Int and Wis and -2 Cha with 8 NA. His numbers for grey and death salad are accurate to my copy. I am wondering where those numbers are coming from and why they are so different.

[Caelestion]

Besides that, taking 50% more fire damage would indeed suck a lot. Thankfully, you are wrong, and they dont take 50% increased fire damage.

A creature with fire vulnerability takes 50% extra damage from fire, whether they save or not.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Water Orc are not have fire vulnerability. They simply take a -2 on saves vs a bunch of stuff such as fire spells and the effects of Fire creatures.

[TotallyNotEvil]

Evil's post confuses me. I looked up green salad and got a Stat pan of +12 Str, +2 Dex, +8 Con, +2 Cha and +13 NA, which are radically different numbers. Blue's are +12 Str, +4 Dex, +8 Con, -4 Int and Wis with +9 NA. Red's have +10 Str, +4 Dex, +6 Con, -4 Int and Wis and -2 Cha with 8 NA. His numbers for grey and death salad are accurate to my copy. I am wondering where those numbers are coming from and why they are so different.

"Accounting for the size increase". Medium -> Large gets +8 STR, +4 CON, -2 DEX, +2 NA.

That's why Half-Minotaur or Half-Ogre are so widely considered to be broken, they get you fat ability bonuses by themselves, but they also make you large.

[Inevitability]

"Accounting for the size increase". Medium -> Large gets +8 STR, +4 CON, -2 DEX, +2 NA.

That's why Half-Minotaur or Half-Ogre are so widely considered to be broken, they get you fat ability bonuses by themselves, but they also make you large.

That is... not how it works. If a Large monster is listed as having 21 strength, then its racial strength bonus is +10, not +18. The +8 from size is only relevant when additional HD or a template increase a monster's size.

[TotallyNotEvil]

I just had a realization as I wrote that answer. Such embarassment!

I was going off Half-Minotaur and Half-Ogre, was just checking the wording on "becomes Large" and realized the mistake, and came rushing to edit.

Maintaing the LAs, tho.

[lord_khaine]

Water Orc are not have fire vulnerability. They simply take a -2 on saves vs a bunch of stuff such as fire spells and the effects of Fire creatures.

Indeed, no wonder people think Water Orcs are reasonable if its a common mistake that they takes increased fire damage.

[Inevitability]

So I took another look at the comments, and it seems that people generally agree on +1 for greens and grays (which will therefore not change). However, a majority suggested +2 for red and blue slaads, and I shall increase their LA as a result. A small majority wanted to keep deaths +0, and so there they will stay.

[Celestia]

Water Orc are not have fire vulnerability. They simply take a -2 on saves vs a bunch of stuff such as fire spells and the effects of Fire creatures.

It seems you are correct. My mistake. It still changes nothing, though. They just have a slightly less terrible detriment than I thought, but it is still a detriment.

[GreatWyrmGold]

In breaking with slaad rules (if that's not an oxymoron), these have a whopping fifteen RHD and are CE rather than CN.

Isn't it weird that the embodiments of chaos have CE variants but not CG ones? If the alignment square is an accurate reflection of D&D metaphysics, surely there would be some life slaads too?

What kind of character doesn't care about skill points or will saves?

Non-skillmonkey characters often don't care about skill points, as long as they have enough to keep vital skills like Spot and Listen up. Which is harder to do at 2+Int if you have a racial Intelligence penalty.
Divine casters don't worry too much about Will saves. Of course, that's because it's a good save and they have good Wisdom.

Water orcs get few benefits, and every single one is counterbalanced by a detriment. They aren't even particularly strong compared to other +0 races, and yet you want to call them +1? That's hilarious.

Water orcs are great if all you worry about are your physical Attributes. Otherwise...they're not terrible, like half-orcs are, but they're nothing special. When bull's strength lets you mimic your race's main feature, I'm not impressed.

[Nodsiu]

Isn't it weird that the embodiments of chaos have CE variants but not CG ones? If the alignment square is an accurate reflection of D&D metaphysics, surely there would be some life slaads too?

It doesn't have to make sense

[Thurbane]

Maybe they evolved from Hezrous that got trapped in Limbo?

[GreatWyrmGold]

It doesn't have to make sense

...Erm...why?

[Celestia]

...Erm...why?

I'm guessing the answer is "because chaos."

[GreatWyrmGold]

I'm guessing the answer is "because chaos."

That's not what chaos means! It's not "I can make up whatever I feel like and don't have to put any effort into thinking about why because chaos," nor does it even mean that it's inherently illogical. Chaos is just hard to predict. That's it! Heck, even chaos can be easy to predict if you focus on the large-scale. Take turbulent flow (a classic example of chaos theory in action), for instance. It's not easy to guess what direction any particular bit of water will be flowing at any given time, but it's all going to move downstream sooner or later.

[Celestia]

That's not what chaos means! It's not "I can make up whatever I feel like and don't have to put any effort into thinking about why because chaos," nor does it even mean that it's inherently illogical. Chaos is just hard to predict. That's it! Heck, even chaos can be easy to predict if you focus on the large-scale. Take turbulent flow (a classic example of chaos theory in action), for instance. It's not easy to guess what direction any particular bit of water will be flowing at any given time, but it's all going to move downstream sooner or later.

B-but chaos! D':

[ExLibrisMortis]

Isn't it weird that the embodiments of chaos have CE variants but not CG ones? If the alignment square is an accurate reflection of D&D metaphysics, surely there would be some life slaads too?

I'm not 100% on this, but I think death slaad are corrupted by the same binding that keeps the slaadi more or less in the same form, as species. In ye olden days, slaadi were even more disparate, but some order was imposed on them in order to rule them, by two of the most powerful slaadi. Their lust for power keeps pure chaos in check. Or that's my headcanon, anyway.

[Nifft]

Yeah I've always viewed Slaadi as a species that evolved to live in Limbo, and not an "embodiment of chaos" or any such metaphysical thing.

Their reproduction cycle is NOT "chaos making babies", it's either through disease or xenomorph chest-busting.

They are associated with chaos, but hey're not "chaos incarnate".

They're just big magic Limbo frogs.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Slaad were chaos incarnate before the Slaad lords messed it up and, AFAIK, they still are.

[Thurbane]

Just a random, not-really-related question: are there any outsiders (besides Formians) with the Lawful subtype that don't also have either the Evil or Good subtypes?

I just checked the web enhancement for MotP, and unless there was errata, the Modrons don't even have a subtype.

[Nifft]

Just a random, not-really-related question: are there any outsiders (besides Formians) with the Lawful subtype that don't also have either the Evil or Good subtypes?

I just checked the web enhancement for MotP, and unless there was errata, the Modrons don't even have a subtype.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Yeah I've always viewed Slaadi as a species that evolved to live in Limbo, and not an "embodiment of chaos" or any such metaphysical thing. [snip]

I guess that makes sense, but pretty much the same argument could be made for outsiders of other planes, except maybe modrons. Take guardinals—why is "good incarnate" a bunch of animal-people?
And on that subject, wouldn't this leave Limbo's only native chaos-ey guys as chaos beasts? Kinda disappointing for the chaotic plane to not have native chaos outsiders, when basically every other alignment has a whole set of native outsiders dedicated to it.

Neat. What website is that from? I don't recognize it.

[Thurbane]

Neat. What website is that from? I don't recognize it.

D&D Monster Finder :: Find monsters

It's a great resource, but just be aware it is a missing a few books (I manually exported all of the entries into a spreadsheet once). Can't remember off the top of my head which were missing...

[Nifft]

I guess that makes sense, but pretty much the same argument could be made for outsiders of other planes, except maybe modrons. Take guardinals—why is "good incarnate" a bunch of animal-people?

I don't think that's a valid comparison.

In their home on Elysium, avoral guardianals are peaceful and friendly. Elsewhere, they serve as powerful emissaries of pure good.

Slaadi are not "emissaries of pure chaos". They're just chaos-aligned chest-buster parasites and/or diseased humanoids who survive in Limbo.