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2009-09-19, 06:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Can someone explain the chain gate solar method for epic spells?
I think I've seen it once, but I've never studied or understood the mechanics.
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2009-09-19, 06:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can someone explain the chain gate solar method for epic spells?
I don't know if there's a particular method, but Solars cast as 20th level clerics, meaning they can cast gate. While it's not on their typical "spells prepared" list, I guess there may be a way to get them to prepare it once you've called them and then have them gate in more solars, etc.
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Comedian avatar by The_Stoney_One
A Guide to Commonly Misunderstood 5th Edition Rules
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2009-09-19, 06:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can someone explain the chain gate solar method for epic spells?
You can use other spellcasters to 'fuel' your own epic spells using ritual casting.
Solars can cast gate. On day one, cast gate and call a Solar. Ask the Solar to prepare gate and call another Solar. The next day, ask both Solars to each call another. Repeat the process an arbitrary number of times.
Now make a ridiculously arbitrarily powerful epic spell for absolutely no cost by using your aleph-null number of Solars to fuel it.
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2009-09-19, 06:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2008
Re: Can someone explain the chain gate solar method for epic spells?
I basically takes advantage of the mitigating factor "Additional participants (ritual)". This factor allows other casters to participate in a ritual where they use slots and for each slot that is to be used the DC of the epic spell is reduced.
Now then solars have spellcasting as a level 20 cleric and thus have slots that they can use in a ritual and one can chain gate solars.
Alternativley one creates an epic spell that summons a solar or other spellcasting creature with a DC of zero so that it takes no resources or time to create such as
Thar be Couatl
Conjuration (Summoning)
Spellcraft DC: 0
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 65 days, 10 minutes
Range: 75 ft.
Effect: A Couatl
Duration: Permanent
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
To Develop: 0 gp; 0 days; 00 XP. Seed: summon (DC 14). Factors: summon CR 10 creature (+16 DC), Permanent duration (x5 DC). Mitigating factors: Increase casting time by 10 minutes (-20 DC), Increase casting time by 65 days (-130 DC)
This spell summons a Couatl. It appears where the character designates and can act immediately. It attacks the character’s opponents to the best of its abilities. The character can direct the Couatl not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.
Now just summon a bunch of these and once one has enough to make a better spell with the slots that they can use in a ritual one makes a spell that either summons monsters with higher level slots or summons more of the same monsters.Last edited by olentu; 2009-09-19 at 06:39 PM.
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2009-09-19, 06:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can someone explain the chain gate solar method for epic spells?
The only thing about Gate is that if you want to keep the critter around for more than your CL in rounds, you have to bargain with it and offer it a reward for one specific task, and each solar that gates in another Solar would have to offer their called Solars a reward to keep them around. Yes you could pull off some shenanigans with the specific task part (as in, help me summon enough of you guys to lay waste to this quadrant of the galaxy) but the reward part could be harder unless your DM plays them as Lawful Stupid and has them accept the destruction of your evil enemies as the "reward".
The epic spell method for getting the first one would work, but after that you still run into the same issue.Last edited by Grynning; 2009-09-19 at 06:44 PM.
My friend and I have a blog, we write D&D stuff there: http://forgotmydice.com/
Comedian avatar by The_Stoney_One
A Guide to Commonly Misunderstood 5th Edition Rules
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2009-09-19, 06:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2008
Re: Can someone explain the chain gate solar method for epic spells?
This is indeed what the term means. The problem is that it assumes non-interference by a wide array of interplanar forces who likely would notice (especially if the Solars/Coatls are channeling their divine energy to cast the iterative effects), and would almost certainly not take too kindly to it.
It also often forgets that Magic Circle Against XYZ breaks any control you have over these things, and that many of these creatures that people like to use for this come with Magic Circles or equivalent effects, rendering the process rather suicidal. And even if they don't, all those interplanar forces need to do is port in one Unicorn or Astral Deva, and all your "allies" are now out for your blood.
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2009-09-19, 06:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2008
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2009-09-19, 06:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2004
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- The Land of Angles
Re: Can someone explain the chain gate solar method for epic spells?
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2009-09-19, 06:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2008
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2009-09-19, 06:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-09-19, 06:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can someone explain the chain gate solar method for epic spells?
Last edited by Dixieboy; 2009-09-19 at 06:53 PM.
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2009-09-19, 06:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2008
Re: Can someone explain the chain gate solar method for epic spells?
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2009-09-19, 06:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-09-19, 07:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can someone explain the chain gate solar method for epic spells?
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2009-09-19, 07:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can someone explain the chain gate solar method for epic spells?
People seem to have forgotten that Gate does not give you a free minion to use as you please.
Spoiler
Originally Posted by Gate
To have a creature do anything that takes more than a couple minutes, you HAVE to bargain with it, i.e. pay it a substantial amount. Otherwise you have no control over it at all. Also, after it's done the one thing you paid it for, it's done, it goes away.Last edited by Grynning; 2009-09-19 at 07:03 PM.
My friend and I have a blog, we write D&D stuff there: http://forgotmydice.com/
Comedian avatar by The_Stoney_One
A Guide to Commonly Misunderstood 5th Edition Rules
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2009-09-19, 07:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2008
Re: Can someone explain the chain gate solar method for epic spells?
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2009-09-19, 07:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can someone explain the chain gate solar method for epic spells?
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2009-09-19, 07:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can someone explain the chain gate solar method for epic spells?
The spell would work on a mindless creature, for 1 round per caster level. But that doesn't pertain to this discussion, since you can't use a mindless creature to help your spellcasting or summon more creatures.
My friend and I have a blog, we write D&D stuff there: http://forgotmydice.com/
Comedian avatar by The_Stoney_One
A Guide to Commonly Misunderstood 5th Edition Rules
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2009-09-19, 07:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can someone explain the chain gate solar method for epic spells?
Can't you just gate a solar in then Mind Rape it into agreeing to a one sided service?
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2009-09-19, 07:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2008
Re: Can someone explain the chain gate solar method for epic spells?
How are you communicating your wishes to the creature? What makes the creature respond to your wishes?
In any case, here's the wording from Protection From Evil, which is the relevant component of Magic Circle...
Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person).
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2009-09-19, 07:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can someone explain the chain gate solar method for epic spells?
It may however pertain to the discussion of if such summoning involves mental control.
Edit: Mental control of a mindless creature seems quite nonsensical to me.
I did note the including and so desired to create a reasonable argument that gate does not involve mental control as it can control mindless creatures.Last edited by olentu; 2009-09-19 at 07:14 PM.
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2009-09-19, 07:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can someone explain the chain gate solar method for epic spells?
Not exactly - the rules under lesser planar ally (that gate references) break it down as a GP cost. And wizards cannot create money out of thin air...i.e. they're still limited to WBL and what DM hands out. A task requiring up to an hour per caster level costs 500 gp per HD of the creature. Minimum HD for a solar is 23, so to get them to rest, prep gate, and cast it costs you 11,500 g.p. Each Solar after that would cost the same...The solar could reasonably refuse to spend it's own reward on the next one, so you'd have to shell out for each one. You'd run out of gold eventually.
*Edit - it would cost you more for the true "chain-gate" effect, since you'd have to pay each solar on the "days" worth of service rate to keep them around long enough to get exponentially more, so 23,000 per solar gated in.
Also, "Serve me" is not a single task, IMO. The spell description of lesser planar ally strongly indicates that you have to be more specific than that.Last edited by Grynning; 2009-09-19 at 07:52 PM.
My friend and I have a blog, we write D&D stuff there: http://forgotmydice.com/
Comedian avatar by The_Stoney_One
A Guide to Commonly Misunderstood 5th Edition Rules
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2009-09-19, 10:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can someone explain the chain gate solar method for epic spells?
Except Wizards totally can make money out of thin air. There's at least half a dozen ways to do it; the quickest is probably to Planar Bind something that can do a spell-like Wish and have it Wish up 25,000 gp worth of goods per use. Planar Binding notably does not require you to pay whatever you call, you just have to beat it in a Cha check which is pretty easy to rig (Planar Binding can also be used to just call Couatls straight up.) If you want them permanently, the 'official' technique is to use your Gate-provided control of them to request/require that they not resist the next spell you cast on them. Then you Mindrape them and they're yours forever; just tell them to Plane Shift and Teleport back to you after the Gate service expires and sends them home.
Other ways to acquire ritual participants include:
Summoning them- Summon Monster 9 can provide 1 Couatl (4th level slot) or up to 3 Lillends (1 2nd level Bard slot apiece.) This lets you turn your own spell slots into mitigation. 5 Couatls gets -35 mitigation, which is enough to increase the duration of most epic buffs by about two weeks. Add that to what you could already do, and you'll only need to use your 9th level slots for this once every month. Use your 8th level slots for Lillends and get another -15.
Epic Leadership provides a minimum of several hundred mitigation, assuming your followers are Adepts or some other stripe of spellcaster. This has the fairly major downside that your support base is incredibly fragile- any kind of Epic threat and most non-Epic ones can clean up your followers pretty easily, so you have to invest in keeping them safe (providing them a home within your personal unreachable demiplane would be a good start, as well as a good place for you to rest on those days when you've used all your high-level slots to boost your Epic spells.)
Build your own. Use your available mitigation to make an Origin of the Species: Spellcasting Tribble. Make some otherwise harmless things whose only purpose in life is to cast an Nth level spell when you ask them to. Make them breed fast. This is even more broken than gate-chaining, but at least requires you to go outside the 'official' seeds to ad-hoc in a value for spellcasting. Which means your DM will probably say no.
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2009-09-19, 11:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can someone explain the chain gate solar method for epic spells?
Slight Correction. Casting time is 65 days and 11 minutes.
Alternatively, if you are a Conjurer Specialist, it is only 53 days and 11 minutes. Also, after you make your First Couatl, you design a new epic spell that does the same thing but in a mere 48 days and 11 minutes.
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2009-09-19, 11:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-09-19, 11:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can someone explain the chain gate solar method for epic spells?
You can start your summoning chain with fissioned duplicates of yourself. Get a universal psionic item of level 20 extended fission at will. Research the coutal summon spell, but with std action casting and 19 9th level spells donated. Activate fission 19 times, cast your spell. Since you have a mitigation of -323 for the first spell, you can summon two coutals, and in rounds rather than weeks. This gives you better exponential growth, because your doubling time is much much shorter.
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2009-09-20, 04:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can someone explain the chain gate solar method for epic spells?
Ok, as others have said you Gate in a solar, use it to Gate in other solars and then use all their CL 20 goodness to fuel your epic spell of win.
However, this does not take time.
A summoned creature acts immediately, thus when you Gate in the first one, it can Gate in another on its action. Then, you get that one to Gate in another, etc, repeated until you have as many as you need.
So it only takes 1 round to get N+1 of the things, and then as long as you cast your spell within 20 rounds or so (IE before your 1 round/CL free control runs out) you're home free. Now, whether the cosmos are now pissed at you and you get something like Hieronious doing scry-and-die on you, that's not my concern. :PMy Work:
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2009-09-20, 04:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can someone explain the chain gate solar method for epic spells?
Now, this may work for one or two summoned creatures, but there's absolutely no guarantee that any individual Solar will have Gate available at whatever inconvenient moment you summoned them. After all, they've got lives and they use their spells to further their own interests. As others have pointed out, you have to plan to wait a full day for them to be able to prepare and cast the spell you want.
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2009-09-20, 04:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can someone explain the chain gate solar method for epic spells?
But Gate is not on a Solar's list of spells memorized, which means a typical gated Solar will not be able to cast that spell immediately.
And doesn't Mind Rape have a casting time of like, an hour? Much longer than the number of rounds your gated creature will remain under your power.
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2009-09-20, 05:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can someone explain the chain gate solar method for epic spells?
...and it will serve you for ten days (until those few minutes during which your commands have any power over it pass). Then it will go away. Any magical means of controlling the solar for a longer period of time would have to be used very quickly. Mind Rape trap or something, I don't know
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