Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page

[hamishspence]

The problem with that power is it does 13d6 (or 6.5d6) damage to everyone, which could easily have killed Belkar, and doesn't explain why Tarquin would just smile it off. You'd think he'd at least frown or grunt in pain.

It says "All enemies within the area" not "All creatures within the area".

Still wouldn't explain Belkar.

[Shale]

Which runs into the problem of why his head is glowing like he's been targeted.

Unless somebody can come up with a power that matches what we're seeing and has friendly fire, the only good explanation I've seen for why the spell would hit him is that she's bouncing Inflict Pain to Durkon and Tarquin is the only one close enough to chain from.

[AstralFire]

I think it's plausible (though not MOST plausible, just plausible) that mind-affecting powers which fire in a burst but pick friend or foe are depicted as "scanning" a mind before deciding whether or not to attack it.

[Jezequel]

How does this comic show that Belkar has three magic daggers (as it says on the front page)? I can count only 2.

[Shale]

Second page, the panel right after he snogs Jenny. He tosses two daggers into the blond thief's torso, while holding on to a third that's visible at his waist.

[hamishspence]

In panel 9 on the second page, Belkar has just thrown two daggers into his enemy while kissing Jenny- yet still has one dagger visible.

EDIT: Swordsaged.

[Jezequel]

Ah yes, thanks!

[Kurald Galain]

Added Spring Attack to Belkar, defensive potions to V (from comic 923).

Miron may not have chosen to specialize in a school: He's cast Abjuration (GDM), Evocation (Contingency), Conjuration (Teleporting spell for said contigency, and that mage armor type spell from blocking Haley's arrow) and Necromancy (Horrid Wilting). Since you can't choose divination to lose, that might be a thought

Always a useful checklist. Well, he could still have dropped Transmutation, Illusion, and Enchantment.

On Miron, all we can say for sure is that he has some sort of teleportation power. It could be Teleport, or it could be something like Dimension Door maximum range straight up (a common Contingency choice).

The range of Dimension Door is about 1000 feet, or 300 meters. Given the location they're in, that would mean he'd still be visible and in the combat.

I would be in favor of adding him and Jacinda to the top posts, even if we know next to nothing about the catgirl yet; this is to include the complete team there. After all, we also have alisting for the MITD.

Speaking of Team Tarquin, we can say something about Laurin's age. Minimum age for a human psion is 17, and she was already psion'ing 22 years ago, when Nale was a baby. So that would make her 39+ years old.

I think it's plausible (though not MOST plausible, just plausible) that mind-affecting powers which fire in a burst but pick friend or foe are depicted as "scanning" a mind before deciding whether or not to attack it.

I don't think that's consistent with how spells have been depicted elsewhere in the comic. I'm leaning towards Inflict Pain as well.

Second page, the panel right after he snogs Jenny. He tosses two daggers into the blond thief's torso, while holding on to a third that's visible at his waist.

Come to think of it, it would be interesting to check if this is also in the printed book :)

[Kurald Galain]

And on another note, Dorukan certainly has at least Craft Wondrous Item, to make his Talisman.

Indeed.

For what it's worth, Girard's "Sorceror 19+" link both has "sorcerer" misspelled and doesn't actually go anywhere.

Whoops :)

Also, I thought of something. In his battle with Malack, Durkon said that he couldn't use Thor's Might because the ceiling was too low; that means he did have it prepared. However, right now he's saying he doesn't have magic any more. That indicates that he can no longer use Thor's Might.

Also also, Laurin has another unspecified attack power in comic 927, which is different from the UAP she used earlier.

[Jezequel]

Come to think of it, it would be interesting to check if this is also in the printed book :)

Just checked. Yup, still there.

[AstralFire]

There is a possibility that Thor's Might was the spell he converted to heal instinctively.

[Porthos]

I agree with Porthos that Belkar has Spring Attack. He also appears to be tumbling in those panels, but tumbling won't let you move both before and after you attack, and he definitely appears to have moved afterward (he's nowhere near him when Haley pegs him).

Even more interesting is the fact that, even with movement, he still got at least two attacks in (one with each dagger). Anyone have an explanation for that? I don't think any Pounce ability would work here, since those only work on a charge, and I don't think you can combine a charge with a Spring Attack.

Setting aside the two attacks bit for a moment, I also think Belkar has too many feats if he does have Spring Attack. For Spring Attack, he needs to have Dodge and Mobility as pre-reques.

In his statblock he has as listed:

Craft Disturbing Mental Image
Great Cleave
Improved Sunder
Power Attack (prerequisite for Improved Sunder)
Two-Weapon Pounce

If we include (and as has now been updated ) Spring Attack and the prereques:

Spring Attack
Dodge
Mobility

That's eight feats. At lvl 15 he should have six feats, correct? OK, as funny as it is, Craft Disturbing Mental Image can go on the chopping block as a 'real' feat. Maybe he got it for free or sumthin.

There's still one too many feats unless I am massively messing up somewhere.

As I look about, I see that Rangers can choose Two Weapon Pounce if they meet certain requirements. But it doesn't appear as if they can choose it as part of their improved weapon style.

So does something go on the chopping block here? Or do we fold in Two Weapon Pounce as an Alternative Class Feature of Rangers for Belkar?

We could also possibly knock out Great Cleave if all we are going on is Belkar's comment about "I'm gonna try for two now." After all, just because he could try doesn't mean he could succeed. And on-screen evidence should trump attempted non-screen evidence.

And all Improved Sunder lets one do is make an attack against a Hydra's head without an Attack of Opportunity. That could be explained away as the Hydra just missed and Rich didn't depict it in the combat explicitly.

Is there evidence for Great Cleave later on in the comic? Or Improved Sunder? If so, Alternate Class Feature for Two Weapon Pounce could be our only alternative. Though I may be missing something pretty big, due to my rust.

ETA::: We could also always open up the can of worms of One Flaw Equals One Feat variant rule. And if any character in the OotS has feat flaws it'd be Belkar.

For instance, Inattentive [You are particularly unaware of your surroundings --- You take a -4 penalty on Listen checks and Spot checks]would certainly work. So to could Weak Will [You are highly suggestible and easily duped --- You take a -3 penalty on Will saves]. Either of them would help explain how he seems to be so lacking in Wisdom, even though he looks to have no worse than a 9 due to various reasons that are better not rehashed for the thousandth time.

Listed just as examples, not as suggestions to add it to the block.

[Psyren]

Sorry if this was mentioned earlier in the thread, but are we not adding Miron? He's almost certainly a sorcerer, and a pretty high-level one if he has Horrid Wilting and Contingency.

[Taelas]

I think the possibility he may also be a wizard is what is delaying his inclusion.

[ChristianSt]

I would include Miron as soon as possibly now (I think we know more of him than of Kilkil). As for class: can't we list him just as "Arcane Spellcaster"?

Or it will crop up every other post

[Flame of Anor]

Setting aside the two attacks bit for a moment, I also think Belkar has too many feats if he does have Spring Attack. For Spring Attack, he needs to have Dodge and Mobility as pre-reques.

In his statblock he has as listed:

Craft Disturbing Mental Image
Great Cleave
Improved Sunder
Power Attack (prerequisite for Improved Sunder)
Two-Weapon Pounce

If we include (and as has now been updated ) Spring Attack and the prereques:

Spring Attack
Dodge
Mobility

That's eight feats. At lvl 15 he should have six feats, correct? OK, as funny as it is, Craft Disturbing Mental Image can go on the chopping block as a 'real' feat. Maybe he got it for free or sumthin.

There's still one too many feats unless I am massively messing up somewhere.

What's more, you've left out Cleave, which is a prerequisite for Great Cleave. So there's definitely something fishy going on. I agree that we should take a hard look at just how sure we are that Belkar has Great Cleave. I would say that maybe he took a Fighter dip, but that probably would have come up in the dialogue.

I would include Miron as soon as possibly now (I think we know more of him than of Kilkil). As for class: can't we list him just as "Arcane Spellcaster"?

Or it will crop up every other post

Just list him as Sor/Wiz, I'd say.

[Kornaki]

So she was expecting Tarquin to wait the two rounds it took for her Fast Healing to undo the damage the Red Spray did? That doesn't make much sense to me.

Well it doesn't make much sense to say 'wait I need to finish healing' immediately after you finish healing either, but that's the world we live in.


For ultrablast there are two components to it: the pyschic grumbling that everyone can hear, and the damaging component. The yellow lines shooting out could be the psychic grumbling, after which only enemies are affected by damage. As for Belkar surviving, let's see what happens in the next comic. If the Order was dealt damage then I think ultrablast is clearly the power in use.

I don't understand why Belkar is being given Great Cleave actually..... he can attack multiple heads because he has multiple attacks, cleaving doesn't seem to be necessary for that strip.

[Psyren]

As I said in the last two iterations of this thread - Belkar's build runs on pure phlebotinum and Rule of Cool. You may as well give him custom feats that let him add Dex to damage and boost Dex when raging. About the only things we really know about him are his classes, alignment, and that his Will save is somewhere just north of Thog's.

[Emanick]

What's more, you've left out Cleave, which is a prerequisite for Great Cleave. So there's definitely something fishy going on. I agree that we should take a hard look at just how sure we are that Belkar has Great Cleave. I would say that maybe he took a Fighter dip, but that probably would have come up in the dialogue.



Just list him as Sor/Wiz, I'd say.

Agreed. Listing him as "arcane spellcaster" implies that he could be a bard or some other non-core arcane class (wu jen, etc.), which is pretty clearly not the case.

[illyahr]

Has anyone discussed the possibility that the power Laurin manifested was Empathic Transfer, Hostile? Her remaining injuries would be transferred to her target, and it goes from touch to 20' radius burst by augmenting. Tarquin would smile because he's used to it, Durkon would look surprised because it would actually hurt him. It wouldn't kill Belkar because Laurin's HP damage would be divided evenly, and it's a Will save for half, so the high-Will characters could demonstrate a lesser effect.

[Kornaki]

I'm willing to go on the record as saying that it is probably ultrablast and Belkar will be dead or unconscious in the next comic, with the full knowledge that if I'm right I get to pretend I'm king of the internet for a day even though nobody really cares, and if I'm wrong refer to that nobody really cares point.

[Kurald Galain]

Tarquin appears to have a stunning attack.

Also, do we have a link for Lirian's alignment?

[Taelas]

I think the closest we have to Lirian's alignment is that she's a druid, which requires her to be some form of Neutral. Not sure how much that helps.

[orrion]

Tarquin appears to have a stunning attack.

Also, do we have a link for Lirian's alignment?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...9#post15667889

It's linked in the Index of the Giant's Comments thread.

Lirian is Neutral Good.

Dorukan's alignment link is the same post.

[zimmerwald1915]

Miron has eaten a lot of damage here, with no visible healing - any chance we can establish a baseline CON bonus?

Yes. Let us assume that Miron went into this fight buffed with stoneskin, resist cold and resist electricity. Let us further assume that he took the minimum damage possible on each attack that visibly left a wound. Those attacks were as follows:

2 arrows
1 lightning bolt (he has a wound on his head that was not there in the last strip, and which Haley's arrows couldn't have left)
1 yellow ray from prismatic spray
1 greatsword, 2 daggers, 4 arrows

Those attacks dealt damage as follows, again assuming minimum damage modifiers (i.e., no Power Attack for Roy or Rage for Belkar, and assuming Belkar's daggers are each +1, but giving Belkar the benefit of Favored Enemy [human] taken 3 times so he can bypass the DR I've given Miron):

1d8+5+1d6 cold
1d8+5+1d6 cold
10d6 electricity (ref halves)
80 electricity (ref halves)
2d6+15
1d3+9
1d3+9
1d8+5+1d6 cold
1d8+5+1d6 cold
1d8+5+1d6 cold
1d8+5+1d6 cold

Resolving each attack so that it does at least one damage, and minimum damage, to Miron, we get the following:

11+1 cold => 1
11+1 cold => 1
31 electricity => 1 electricity (Miron failed his save, but V only rolled 31 on her damage dice; if Miron had made his save, he would have taken no damage, because V's maximum damage on a lightning bolt that had been saved against would have been 30)
40 electricity => 10 electricity
17 => 7
11 => 1
11 => 1
11+1 cold => 1
11+1 cold => 1
11+1 cold => 1
11+1 cold => 1

All told, it is possible that Miron could have taken as little as 26 damage before his contingency activated. This is terribly unlikely, as it is achieved by giving Miron buffs we don't know he has (but can't be sure he doesn't have), and assuming the Order did the absolute minimum damage possible on each successful hit. It doesn't jive with the art showing him covered in wounds, including what look like severe wounds caused by Roy and Belkar. But it is possible.

At minimum, Miron is a level 15 Wizard. If he rolled 4s on all his HD, and is in fact a level 15 Wizard, he would have 60 HP before Constitution. So it's possible, though again, terribly unlikely, that the Order has yet to deplete even half his HP. This sort of thing isn't unprecedented; as I've argued in earlier threads, in order to have survived her fight with Xykon, V needed to have rolled almost all 4s on her HD, have a Constitution penalty of no less than -1, and made all her saves while Xykon did minimal damage. But we don't need to assume Miron's Constitution is average. We want to find a minimum value.

Again assuming Miron to be level 15, and to have rolled all 4s on his HD, in order to find his minimum Constitution we need to give him a penalty that will leave him with no less than 27 HP. That penalty is -2. So Miron, if he is a level 15 Wizard, must have a Constitution of 6 or higher. If he is level 28 or above (which we have absolutely no reason to believe), his Constitution could be as low as 4.

Since we have no reason to believe Miron is anywhere near level 28, we can say with some confidence that his Constitution must be 6 or higher.

[orrion]

That's a greatsword, 2 daggers, and 4 arrows, Zimmer.

[zimmerwald1915]

That's a greatsword, 2 daggers, and 4 arrows, Zimmer.

Thanks for the correction, but it doesn't change the conclusion. Miron's Constitution is still either 6 or higher.

[Bird]

Agreed. Listing him as "arcane spellcaster" implies that he could be a bard or some other non-core arcane class (wu jen, etc.), which is pretty clearly not the case.

Playing devil's advocate, is it? I agree he's not a bard or wu jen, but are there any other arcane primary-casting classes that could fit? (I admit I'm not familiar with the entire panoply of non-core classes.)

Since we have no reason to believe Miron is anywhere near level 28, we can say with some confidence that his Constitution must be 6 or higher.

You are good. High five.

[Emanick]

Playing devil's advocate, is it? I agree he's not a bard or wu jen, but are there any other arcane primary-casting classes that could fit? (I admit I'm not familiar with the entire panoply of non-core classes.)


You are good. High five.

The only other arcane spellcaster classes I can think of that are remotely within the mainstream (i.e. not one of the dozens of classes that may exist within the nebulous world of third-party sourcebooks) are the warlock and the warmage. Miron is definitely not a warlock, as they don't even cast spells, per se. I'm pretty sure he's not a warmage, either, since their spells are pretty tightly focused on military combat, but I can't say for sure, as my copy of Complete Arcane is currently on another continent.

[hamishspence]

Wu Jen have access to Teleport, Horrid Wilting, and lots of other spells. Not Contingency, though.