Characters you can't stat in 3.5

[Hand_of_Vecna]

It looks to me like Lord R, like me, just thinks D&D is unsuited to be used as a generic system - there's quite a few characters it can't model accurately without torturing either the rules, or the character concept.

The quote you disputed in your first post said "almost any" not "any". The fact that dozens of concepts that people thought would be stumpers weren't is actually a pretty good case that the system is pretty damned flexible. Whether a particular thing is the purview of roleplaying or mechanics in a particular system is a matter of taste rather than superiority or inferiority of a given system. Many people find systems that have rules for conversation and politics as in depth as the dueling rules in Riddle of Steel to be inherently horid for roleplaying.

Toche' on the quiz though, to my knowledge there isn't a mechanical way to have a character lose numerous powers through a means are arbitrary as people thinking of them.

[Vhaidara]

Oh! There's one! The Quiz, from Grant Morrison's run on Doom Patrol. She has every superpower you haven't thought of.

Commoner 1. She can't use a power without you thinking of it, so she has no powers.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Also, D&D by the rules, doesn't even do most other fantasy very well. Cliche situation: A character staggers up to the hero, gasps out a message, then dies of their injuries. Good luck making THAT happen in a game where Cure Light Wounds is a thing without PC cooperation or some plot device any smart villain would also use on the PCs.

Edit: And any situation where a reasonably-experienced character is being held at crossbow point by a single mook, ignoring the fact even medium-level D&D characters can survive more damage than a Sherman tank.

The first can happen in a low magic world or in a game that uses the "last words" houserule previously discussed. You only dismissed "massive housruling" in the OP. Most people posting challenges have been extremely hostile to houseruling despite this and most posters answering challenges have avoided houseruling, but it seems ingenuine to now be hostile to minor quality of life houserules that create the atmosphere the dungeon master wants for their particular world.

The single mook issue is actually something I called out earlier as being a source of ludonarrative dissonace within a lot of source material. If it's a spiny issue if you over think it in it's source; I don't believe it's fair to harp on it's poor modeling in a game system.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Commoner 1. She can't use a power without you thinking of it, so she has no powers.

I've seen the character sheet from the Marvel RPG. "You" doesn't apply to the quiz or by extension the gamemaster, unless the gamemaster thinks of it and decides another NPC thought of it. The quiz being functional for more than a round depends on the gamemaster either having dozens of powers ready to use for one round or something obscure enough that you won't think of it even if you see it functioning.

[Story]

A character staggers up to the hero, gasps out a message, then dies of their injuries. Good luck making THAT happen in a game where Cure Light Wounds is a thing without PC cooperation or some plot device any smart villain would also use on the PCs.

Vile damage

[Anlashok]

Also, D&D by the rules, doesn't even do most other fantasy very well.

To be entirely fair, D&D doesn't do D&D very well either. Just need to compare an actual game of mid level D&D with basically any Forgotten Realms or Eberron or Dragonlance or Greyhawk and so on. Because I've read a book where that cliché scenario happens. When the guy being delivered the message is a 15th level cleric.

And, ironically, D&D isn't very good at doing either dungeons or dragons either.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

To be entirely fair, D&D doesn't do D&D very well either. Just need to compare an actual game of mid level D&D with basically any Forgotten Realms or Eberron or Dragonlance or Greyhawk and so on. Because I've read a book where that cliché scenario happens. When the guy being delivered the message is a 15th level cleric.

And, ironically, D&D isn't very good at doing either dungeons or dragons either.

You're placing blame in the wrong direction. The books are failing to follow D&D's rules.

[Knaight]

A character staggers up to the hero, gasps out a message, then dies of their injuries. Good luck making THAT happen in a game where Cure Light Wounds is a thing without PC cooperation or some plot device any smart villain would also use on the PCs.

Vile damage

So it takes going out of the way and having the character take a special kind of damage, whereas in the fiction they generally just got stabbed or something. I'm not impressed.

[eggynack]

You're placing blame in the wrong direction. The books are failing to follow D&D's rules.

Yeah, expecting the books to follow the rules seems pretty out there when the game's own statblocks fail to follow them.

[Anlashok]

You're placing blame in the wrong direction. The books are failing to follow D&D's rules.

For the former, probably. The latter though refers to the system as well.

[ryu]

So it takes going out of the way and having the character take a special kind of damage, whereas in the fiction they generally just got stabbed or something. I'm not impressed.

The character who is victim could also be using transcend mortality or similar. For a set period pretty much just not going to die by most standard means. When times up they end no questions asked though.

[eggynack]

So it takes going out of the way and having the character take a special kind of damage, whereas in the fiction they generally just got stabbed or something. I'm not impressed.

I don't see what there is to not be impressed by. A specific situation was desired, and here's how to do it in game. Is there really anything being lost from the scenario by involving special damage types? In fact, I'd argue that it's even more dramatic than the base situation. Instead of the messenger just keeling over after delivering a message, in this scenario the party cleric desperately attempts to toss his most potent healing spell at the messenger, only for it to fail utterly against the immense evil that must have done this. Maybe the villain even wanted this to happen, took out this guy only most of the way such that the cleric would be crushed by the futility of it all. Maybe some other thing, I don't know. Point is, the task as written seems like it was completed adequately.

[Narren]

Has anyone mentioned Goku? Or anyone from Dragonball Z, I suppose.

I mean...I see several ways it can be done, but they involve epic-level monstrosities, massive houseruling, or having lots of extras irrelevant to the character.

[ryu]

Has anyone mentioned Goku? Or anyone from Dragonball Z, I suppose.

I mean...I see several ways it can be done, but they involve epic-level monstrosities, massive houseruling, or having lots of extras irrelevant to the character.

It has been mentioned that you can't disallow epic level builds for clearly epic concepts. People who have to be careful when fighting to not end the planet they're on are epic. Period.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

It has been mentioned that you can't disallow epic level builds for clearly epic concepts. People who have to be careful when fighting to not end the planet they're on are epic. Period.

Honestly, this should never have needed to be said, but it has been, like a half dozen times.

[aleucard]

Has anyone mentioned Goku? Or anyone from Dragonball Z, I suppose.

I mean...I see several ways it can be done, but they involve epic-level monstrosities, massive houseruling, or having lots of extras irrelevant to the character.

Statting him in Dragonball would be a challenge, but PROBABLY acceptable within this particular framework. After, though? Yeah, no dice. Epic be Epic. As far as this discussion is concerned, Epic characters like the upper tiers of the Justice League (with Superman being the worst contender, if memory serves) or basically anybody from DBZ save the 'weaklings' like Yamcha or Krillin (and even then, they're pretty damn close) is just not going to bloody work south of Epic. I'm fairly sure there's several of them that can be built pretty faithfully WITH epic, though. Just have to tweak it a bit (and for the ones who'd have access to certain things they wouldn't use if they were in 3.5, that's actually even better; they CAN do these things, they just choose not to for whatever reason).

The only things that couldn't really be done right without involving non-3.5 material or calling the existing fluff nonexistent (names of the items included) are the High-Tech stuff, and even then there are exceptions (Terminator, for instance).

[Knaight]

I don't see what there is to not be impressed by. A specific situation was desired, and here's how to do it in game. Is there really anything being lost from the scenario by involving special damage types? In fact, I'd argue that it's even more dramatic than the base situation. Instead of the messenger just keeling over after delivering a message, in this scenario the party cleric desperately attempts to toss his most potent healing spell at the messenger, only for it to fail utterly against the immense evil that must have done this. Maybe the villain even wanted this to happen, took out this guy only most of the way such that the cleric would be crushed by the futility of it all. Maybe some other thing, I don't know. Point is, the task as written seems like it was completed adequately.

The capacity for a routine fantasy trope is what was asked for. When it takes extremely niche stuff to get said trope, the system isn't a very good model. The task as written explicitly refers to a fantasy trope, and the trope isn't one of a very special evil magic being able to leave someone where they have dying words, the trope is where someone gets suddenly stabbed, or shot, or thrown off a height, and the heroes arrive as they die and get the last words.

[Vhaidara]

The capacity for a routine fantasy trope is what was asked for. When it takes extremely niche stuff to get said trope, the system isn't a very good model. The task as written explicitly refers to a fantasy trope, and the trope isn't one of a very special evil magic being able to leave someone where they have dying words, the trope is where someone gets suddenly stabbed, or shot, or thrown off a height, and the heroes arrive as they die and get the last words.

How often does this trope occur in a fantasy setting where healing magic is common? Almost never. So, if your setting has healing magic as a common thing, and you try to use this, you're being stupid.

However, some settings are low magic, sometimes they have special rules about magic. I am currently in a campaign with no divine magic. That means no healing. In that setting, it is entirely possible for this to occur. But should I expect this to work in a setting that regularly features clerics and paladins? No.

[ryu]

The capacity for a routine fantasy trope is what was asked for. When it takes extremely niche stuff to get said trope, the system isn't a very good model. The task as written explicitly refers to a fantasy trope, and the trope isn't one of a very special evil magic being able to leave someone where they have dying words, the trope is where someone gets suddenly stabbed, or shot, or thrown off a height, and the heroes arrive as they die and get the last words.

Quite frankly that sort of thing should be rare especially in any setting with magical healing effective enough to work as field hospitals on people not even far advanced into half the divine classes, and the people who aren't involved with any sort of divine caster can just buy a wand or even a potion if they suck at all magic forever. People fully capable of soliloquizing shouldn't be hard to save outside of some very specifically niche scenarios in all but the least powerful of settings. Hell we'll probably be at something not too far from that level of efficiency if not portability within a few decades.

[eggynack]

The capacity for a routine fantasy trope is what was asked for. When it takes extremely niche stuff to get said trope, the system isn't a very good model. The task as written explicitly refers to a fantasy trope, and the trope isn't one of a very special evil magic being able to leave someone where they have dying words, the trope is where someone gets suddenly stabbed, or shot, or thrown off a height, and the heroes arrive as they die and get the last words.

It just doesn't seem like there's much difference, to be honest. You're just saying, "Make this high magic game be low magic," which seems out of scope to me. The situation as presented, despite the presence of a vile weapon, gets across pretty much all of the dramatic weight desired, and fills the exact same story function. Seriously, if you want this guy to say stuff before he dies, just have him do that. He falls, takes enough damage to kill him, but says something dramatic before death can claim him. Done. It's bending things a little, maybe, but not in a particularly problematic way.

[Arbane]

Commoner 1. She can't use a power without you thinking of it, so she has no powers.

Funny. But since she had powers in the comic book, people outside the medium don't count.

[Knaight]

Quite frankly that sort of thing should be rare especially in any setting with magical healing effective enough to work as field hospitals on people not even far advanced into half the divine classes, and the people who aren't involved with any sort of divine caster can just buy a wand or even a potion if they suck at all magic forever. People fully capable of soliloquizing shouldn't be hard to save outside of some very specifically niche scenarios in all but the least powerful of settings. Hell we'll probably be at something not too far from that level of efficiency if not portability within a few decades.

It just doesn't seem like there's much difference, to be honest. You're just saying, "Make this high magic game be low magic," which seems out of scope to me. The situation as presented, despite the presence of a vile weapon, gets across pretty much all of the dramatic weight desired, and fills the exact same story function. Seriously, if you want this guy to say stuff before he dies, just have him do that.

Exactly. D&D doesn't handle low magic well. It's limited in what it handles well, and while it's big enough that there are often pretty niche, contrived ways to get around that limit with a ridiculous amount of system mastery, it still compares unfavorably to generics. With that in mind, the versatility of it being played up too much really comes into focus.

[ryu]

Exactly. D&D doesn't handle low magic well. It's limited in what it handles well, and while it's big enough that there are often pretty niche, contrived ways to get around that limit with a ridiculous amount of system mastery, it still compares unfavorably to generics. With that in mind, the versatility of it being played up too much really comes into focus.

I take umbridge with the insinuation that a trope that's ninety percent of the time misused by hacks being less likely to happen is a bad thing. Now it can be done well but most times it's not. Similar concepts would be the amnesiac protagonist.

[Vhaidara]

Exactly. D&D doesn't handle low magic well. It's limited in what it handles well, and while it's big enough that there are often pretty niche, contrived ways to get around that limit with a ridiculous amount of system mastery, it still compares unfavorably to generics. With that in mind, the versatility of it being played up too much really comes into focus.

It handles low magic fine. You just, you know, remove the magic, and the monsters that don't belong in a low magic world

[eggynack]

Exactly. D&D doesn't handle low magic well. It's limited in what it handles well, and while it's big enough that there are often pretty niche, contrived ways to get around that limit with a ridiculous amount of system mastery, it still compares unfavorably to generics. With that in mind, the versatility of it being played up too much really comes into focus.

Except it handles this in particular just fine, as has been noted. I'm not really sure what you're missing with this solution in terms of actual impact on the game. It's a high power game, so problems have to be higher power in order to be difficult or unsolvable. That doesn't mean that those problems can't exist though.

Edit: Also, I've gotta say, it feels a bit like railroading to present a bad thing and find it problematic when the players fairly solve it. Volition is awesome.

[AMFV]

Exactly. D&D doesn't handle low magic well. It's limited in what it handles well, and while it's big enough that there are often pretty niche, contrived ways to get around that limit with a ridiculous amount of system mastery, it still compares unfavorably to generics. With that in mind, the versatility of it being played up too much really comes into focus.

This is mostly an issue in 3.5, where we have the same rules for everybody, and player mortality is supposed to be lower. This means that world wide mortality is lower according to the rules. But there is a lot of handwaving, and it's accepted handwaving.

I'm not sure if it compares unfavorably to generics. Because if you have NPCs operating under the same rules as PCs, and you have them easier to kill, then it makes PCs easier to kill, which could make for a less fun game. The problem is when people point out narrative problems they see in D&D they are assuming a much higher level of transparency than D&D actually has as a general rule. The guy stumbling in and handing the letter over is flavor text, he's already really dead. And if the players want to save him or resurrect him, then that's an exciting side quest, but the DM doesn't have to allow it.

So again it's not that D&D is a bad system for generic fantasy, so much as D&D is a good system for low character mortality as compared to most generic fantasy systems I've seen.

[Phelix-Mu]

Just wanted to pop my head in and mention that, once characters hit epic, anything is stattable by RAW, as epic spells can do anything. I once tried to attach a humanoid weapon to my epic monk/wizard by making an epic spell that bound a solar's body and mind to my character's body, allowing an extra set of actions, access to solar cleric casting, and other coolness. The only reason that it didn't work out is that the DM killed off all solars in existence before I could manage it (though I later realized that a revised spell could have worked, making a fake solar and then binding it to the character).

Hehe. Good times. My point is that epic rules have Mac truck-sized open-ended rules in them, which allow mainly spell casters (but indirectly everyone) to achieve truly hyperbolic effects (like Jack_Simth's technique to animate an earth-sized planet with just 2-3 epic spells cast repeatedly). With mythals on the table, even characters like Suzumiya Haruhi come within reach, with costless at will wish-fulfillment becoming eminently possible (among other similarly epic scope abilities).

[TheCrowing1432]

Most if not all of Homestuck characters.

[Arbane]

Most if not all of Homestuck characters.

Well, Bec's an Epic-level Advanced Blink Dog...

[Story]

like Jack_Simth's technique to animate an earth-sized planet with just 2-3 epic spells cast repeatedly

That's nothing. Tippy once made a living planet wizard pre-epic.