OOTS #1068 - The Discussion Thread

[JumboWheat01]

You know Belkar, if you keep this worrying up, you might start working your way towards Chaotic Neutral.

[Sniffnoy]

I think the title -- taking the phrase "abandon ship" and reversing it -- is supposed to indicate that the ship abandoned them, rather than vice versa? Still pretty confusing.

[Ganbatte]

I don't get it. Why would that giant snow woman be afraid to take credit for her work and own strenght? Why would she willingly downplay herself and then blame it on her male colleagues?

Sounds kinda dumb to me.

[Spellbreaker26]

I don't get it. Why would that giant snow woman be afraid to take credit for her work and own strenght? Why would she willingly downplay herself and then blame it on her male colleagues?

Sounds kinda dumb to me.

I get the joke - that she feels sexist pressure not to overshadow her male colleagues. But it just doesn't work that well in this context; partially because the giants have gender-integrated combat units and partially because the intention of hyping up the bad situation Roy's in is unnecessary because we already know he's massively screwed.

[Dagny]

Yeah, but he's faking character growth, for instance he never did kill Crystal.

Is he even still faking it at this point? The whole "developing empathy for his pets and then slowly beginning to generalize that empathy to other people" thing has seemed sincere for a while now.

[Mido]

Ah, something witty and away from the whole infuriating scene. Nice change of pace. Great to get an update a bit quicker than the previous one too.

Belkar quips are back and nice to see development all around. It's pretty easy for Haley to snap back at Belkar's ill mannered snipes (the one on this page not as mean-spirited as most before. guy's developing more than he's letting on... or I'm just reading too much into things) and V hardly begrudgingly objects anymore with aiding the little devil.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I get the joke - that she feels sexist pressure not to overshadow her male colleagues. But it just doesn't work that well in this context; partially because the giants have gender-integrated combat units

This makes no sense. Her comment only works if she's in an integrated combat unit. Her complaint is that there is pressure put on her to not overshadow less-able male fighters. If there weren't integrated combat units, how would she be pressured to not overshadow male fighters she doesn't fight next to?

GW

[hroþila]

That they have gender-integrated combat units only means that's a particular sphere where overt, institutional sexism doesn't prevail. It doesn't say anything about more subtle forms of sexism.

[pendell]

An update! Sweet, it's like an early Christmas present! :)

Andi's bad decisions keep piling up; in the time it takes for V and company to hunt them down there's no telling how much damage the giantess will do.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[ChillerInstinct]

Another great comic. Thank you Mr. Burlew!

I had a very similar scare myself.

Likewise. Though I suppose, if we're about to have one Mechane "on the rocks", probably good to show that everyone else is okay first.

Presumably it won't be hard for them to catch up, either. Should be able to get enough altitude to see the Mechane with V and Haley's flight, I'd imagine, if absolutely nothing else.

[Ganbatte]

This makes no sense. Her comment only works if she's in an integrated combat unit. Her complaint is that there is pressure put on her to not overshadow less-able male fighters. If there weren't integrated combat units, how would she be pressured to not overshadow male fighters she doesn't fight next to?

So, uh, the giants have no problem with integrating women into their fighting lots (where one weak link in the chain might spell doom for all) but at the same time they don't feel like acknowledging their strenght? How does that work?
And while she's the one who chooses to cave in to the pressure, rather than bringing the fight where it belongs - her own frost giant society - she chooses to bitch and complain when nobody's around to hear?

Well I guess that's frost giants for you.

[hroþila]

So, uh, the giants have no problem with integrating women into their fighting lots (where one weak link in the chain might spell doom for all) but at the same time they don't feel like acknowledging their strenght? How does that work?

There's like a BILLION parallels with the real world. I'm confused that you find it confusing.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Yeah. It's yet another example of the glass (ice?) ceiling at work again.

[Spellbreaker26]

This makes no sense. Her comment only works if she's in an integrated combat unit. Her complaint is that there is pressure put on her to not overshadow less-able male fighters. If there weren't integrated combat units, how would she be pressured to not overshadow male fighters she doesn't fight next to?

Because of all the forms of sexism that might exist in a gender-integrated combat unit, having anyone perform less-than-their best seems fairly low down based purely on the fact that you won't last very long.

I'm not ruling out the possibility of women being denied a shot at higher ranks, or maltreated off the battlefield, but that specific form of sexism seems like something that wouldn't happen on the actual battlefield.

[Unoriginal]

So, uh, the giants have no problem with integrating women into their fighting lots (where one weak link in the chain might spell doom for all) but at the same time they don't feel like acknowledging their strenght? How does that work?

It's actually pretty common among sexist people. Expecting people of the other gender to do things for them while still thinking they're inherently inferior.

And while she's the one who chooses to cave in to the pressure, rather than bringing the fight where it belongs - her own frost giant society - she chooses to bitch and complain when nobody's around to hear?

Leaving the debate of "choosing to cave" aside, she's saying right now that it's her opportunity to go "no, he didn't do it, I did, and no one can deny it".

It could also be that Frost Giants have a culture of self-sacrifice and humility after battle/never-speak-ill-of-the-dead kind of deal (given that their god at least oppose the Northern deities who are all about glory in battle and singing your awesome deeds), and that she's sick and tired of having to credits those who were weak enough to die.

There's like a BILLION parallels with the real world. I'm confused that you find it confusing.

Well, bigotry is not rational, so trying to find the logic of it can be pretty confusing.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Also, note that she's the only female frost giant warrior we've seen.

[Peelee]

Because of all the forms of sexism that might exist in a gender-integrated combat unit, having anyone perform less-than-their best seems fairly low down based purely on the fact that you won't last very long.

So, you're saying that for this system to be in place, a given male warrior less capable than a female warrior who is downplaying her martial prowess wouldn't last very long.

I feel like I should point out at this point that the male giant didn't last very long.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Because of all the forms of sexism that might exist in a gender-integrated combat unit, having anyone perform less-than-their best seems fairly low down based purely on the fact that you won't last very long.

That's not what she said. She said that even if she does perform better, she is pressured to say that the male fighters did most of the work - i.e. she does the work, they get the medals.

I'm not ruling out the possibility of women being denied a shot at higher ranks, or maltreated off the battlefield, but that specific form of sexism seems like something that wouldn't happen on the actual battlefield.

Like hroþila said, there is plenty examples in RL of this very situation going on, in the military and in many other fields.

GW

[Spellbreaker26]

I feel like I should point out at this point that the male giant didn't last very long.

Against Roy, an incredibly good fighter with a magic sword and a magic belt.

Either way, I don't so much have a problem with the point being made so much as that it interrupted the flow of the scene in its ham-handedness.

[Spellbreaker26]

Also, note that she's the only female frost giant warrior we've seen.

Not true, there were some clerics. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1052.html

[Jasdoif]

That they have gender-integrated combat units only means that's a particular sphere where overt, institutional sexism doesn't prevail. It doesn't say anything about more subtle forms of sexism.

Like if the overall culture hasn't (yet) adapted to the introduction of gender-integrated combat units.

[Chei]

Ah, good, a brief breath of funny amidst all the Andi. I'm liking it.

Also damn, Roy. Think of something.

[Rogar Demonblud]

That's clerics, not warriors, as I specifically called out.

Thinking about it, the giantess may now be the highest leveled person in the tribe. And the Jarl might've been in with those casters. Can you say promotion?

[Peelee]

Against Roy, an incredibly good fighter with a magic sword and a magic belt..

....so it wasn't a really an issue until they fought someone who made it an issue? Imean,you're kind of demolishing your own point here.

[Ganbatte]

It's actually pretty common among sexist people. Expecting people of the other gender to do things for them while still thinking they're inherently inferior.

What do you mean? She's not doing anything for them, she's fighting with them. And in a group one single weakling can mean doom for the whole party.
Remember 300, when Leonidas refused to let Ephialtes join their ranks because he was unable to cover the flank of the men beside him? That's the point. If she's perceived as a weakling fighter by them, would they let her fight with their elite ranks in the first place? No.
Which means they do know she's strong enough to pull her own weight, meaning that there's no reason for her to conceal her own strenght.
I don't know, it just makes no sense other than attempting to deliver a real-world social message that sounds kinda clumsy and awkward in this context.

It could also be that Frost Giants have a culture of self-sacrifice and humility after battle/never-speak-ill-of-the-dead kind of deal (given that their god at least oppose the Northern deities who are all about glory in battle and singing your awesome deeds), and that she's sick and tired of having to credits those who were weak enough to die.

But she's not doing that, in fact if you read the strip she's actually scorning her own God for that. What kind of frost giant is she? Does she not care for her own religion and customs as well?
And if the Frost Giant's culture is one of "humility and never speaking ill of the dead" that means all dead equally, not just because most happen to be males, meaning that her throwing a fit at Roy is totally out of personal bias there.

[PH7]

But say two male (or two female) giants had jumped on the ship. Would the superior warrior not have been unwilling to share credit anyway?
The gender divide makes it more obvious perhaps, yes. But wouldn't this whole argument have been inevitable?

[Spellbreaker26]

....so it wasn't a really an issue until they fought someone who made it an issue? Imean,you're kind of demolishing your own point here.

Why should we believe that she would have lasted long either? Roy is special - he's far above the power level that these Giants were prepared for. If he hadn't lost his sword she'd almost certainly be dead by now.

Also, on the subject of numbers, I count about 3 or 4 ladies here:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1050.html

[Rogar Demonblud]

Ganbatte, have you ever seen a Lily Tomlin/Jane Fonda movie called 9 to 5? It might explain the whole concept of "woman does all the work, man gets all the credit" better than a message board can.

[Jay R]

5. Last point: All they have to do is CLIMB and they will find the ship. There is no "10,000foot altitude limit" on the fly spell, right?

The ship is below 10,000 feet, not on the pass, circling around a mountain, and aiming for a different pass. This will guarantee not finding it.

[Peelee]

Why should we believe that she would have lasted long either? Roy is special - he's far above the power level that these Giants were prepared for. If he hadn't lost his sword she'd almost certainly be dead by now.

So if they fight people stronger then they are, it doesn't matter, and if they fight people weaker than they are, I think we can safely assume it doesn't matter.... so this system would only mean that the less competent wouldn't last long with the other one holding back, but only for a narrow range of skilled enemies?