3.5 Bard am I missing something, or is this class really so bad?

[Ansem]

I can build a Bard to cause all allies within a 314.5 square mile area to deal +17d6 Sonic Damage.

Build please.

[Socratov]

Build please.

Ok, take my last post on optimising DFI, and take 2 feats (possible at lvl 1 with human without flaws), at high level (lvl 20, but earlier is very possible just less dice) you can cast Sonic Weapon on Everyone's weapon (1 minute per level, extendable using extra music and meta-magic song to persist it for everyone. then, to make sure everyone within miles can hear it, you get a masterwork alphorn (longer reach, still the extra accuracy bonus) with Amplify cast on it to make sure even the souls of the dead on another plane hear you and get the bonus if you think they are friendly. So, first off: stick that in your pipe and smoke it, second, please provide evidence how a well built bard sucks, because I'm strongly believing by now that your veteran group of DnD players wouldn't know how to build a decent bard if a shining example was dancing in front of them wearing nothing but a teacozy. (if you hadn't guessed by now I'm getting annoyed at your lack of proof on your statement that bards suck when this thread has proven time and time again that the bard in fact doesn't)

[SliceandDiceKid]

Ok, take my last post on optimising DFI, and take 2 feats (possible at lvl 1 with human without flaws), at high level (lvl 20, but earlier is very possible just less dice) you can cast Sonic Weapon on Everyone's weapon (1 minute per level, extendable using extra music and meta-magic song to persist it for everyone. then, to make sure everyone within miles can hear it, you get a masterwork alphorn (longer reach, still the extra accuracy bonus) with Amplify cast on it to make sure even the souls of the dead on another plane hear you and get the bonus if you think they are friendly. So, first off: stick that in your pipe and smoke it, second, please provide evidence how a well built bard sucks, because I'm strongly believing by now that your veteran group of DnD players wouldn't know how to build a decent bard if a shining example was dancing in front of them wearing nothing but a teacozy. (if you hadn't guessed by now I'm getting annoyed at your lack of proof on your statement that bards suck when this thread has proven time and time again that the bard in fact doesn't)

Bahaha I'm glad I asked about bards. Socratov, I always enjoy your input.

[Socratov]

Bahaha I'm glad I asked about bards. Socratov, I always enjoy your input.

Glad you like it. By the way if you employ such tricks (you know, turning your melee characters into giant eardrum and boneshredding blenders after deafening them with your alphorn) you might need to learn how to dodge books. Seriously. let's assume 2 lion totem whirling frenzy barbarians: 5 attacks per turn (pre haste, which you can cast by the way, just saying), 17d6 per attack sonic damage, that makes pre cleave, for some 170d6 bonus damage per round. Add haste that's an extra 32d6 damage per round. that averages out to 202*((1+6)/2)=707 sonic damage, per round. let's assume your precious barbs have cleave and went shocktrooper you're looking at wiping out gods due to HP damage. Loosely translated that makes anything a bloody smear on whatever surface you find yourself on. It really is too bad only the wizard has access to Summon: Deck Chair and Leomunds Finely Stocked Cocktail Bar (including bartender), beucase after that first round of 2 hasted whirling frenzied barbarians going to town nothing will be left standing and you will really love to have that Long Island Iced-Tea for that full round of hard work.

Edit: before people are going to ask: the deck chair and cocktail summon are a reference to the 15 minute workday in which a wizard is on the level of a minor deity in power, quite literally telling reality to sit down and shut up, letting summons do the work for them.

[Ansem]

I just asked for a build, no need to be a jerk all of the sudden....

[eggynack]

I just asked for a build, no need to be a jerk all of the sudden....

It's at least a little justified, given the lack of evidence on your side, along with your somewhat persistent claim that it is the correct one. If that is not still your stance, then you should probably say so, because argument inertia means that you're usually assumed to hold the same position until stated otherwise. Bards are cool, and also often unfairly maligned. Folks get a bit defensive where they're concerned as a result.

[Socratov]

It's at least a little justified, given the lack of evidence on your side, along with your somewhat persistent claim that it is the correct one. If that is not still your stance, then you should probably say so, because argument inertia means that you're usually assumed to hold the same position until stated otherwise. Bards are cool, and also often unfairly maligned. Folks get a bit defensive where they're concerned as a result.

Thank you.

Also, please remind me that I totally need to make the following spells:

Summon Deckchair

and

Leomund's Fully Stocked Bar

I want to save those away for later times...

Oh and they should totally be 1st level spells, cantrips for a bard...

[Urpriest]

Thank you.

Also, please remind me that I totally need to make the following spells:

Summon Deckchair

and

Leomund's Fully Stocked Bar

I want to save those away for later times...

Oh and they should totally be 1st level spells, cantrips for a bard...

Sure that should be a Leomund? Sounds more like a Mordenkainen.

[SliceandDiceKid]

Thank you.

Also, please remind me that I totally need to make the following spells:

Summon Deckchair

and

Leomund's Fully Stocked Bar

I want to save those away for later times...

Oh and they should totally be 1st level spells, cantrips for a bard...

While you're at it,
A spell to place toes in the water, and your ass in the sand?

Before a mod flags me for language, I'm referring to a beast of burden.

[Socratov]

Sure that should be a Leomund? Sounds more like a Mordenkainen.

well, I pegged leomund to be the real estate guy... (Leomund's tiny hut and all that), though Mordekainen could have been high level enough to be bored out of his skull enough to research the spell. Also, I think the martini's tastiness should be linked to the number of casterlevels.

While you're at it,
A spell to place toes in the water, and your ass in the sand?

Before a mod flags me for language, I'm referring to a beast of burden.

I gather it's a song of some sort? I could homebrew a bard spell which creates the perfect background music for the situation...

You know what, I'll be starting a new thread on homebrewing the complete bar and hotel resort.

[Shining Wrath]

Thank you.

Also, please remind me that I totally need to make the following spells:

Summon Deckchair

and

Leomund's Fully Stocked Bar

I want to save those away for later times...

Oh and they should totally be 1st level spells, cantrips for a bard...

WRONG.

A bard charms the nearest wizard into summoning those things for him. After first self-buffing with Inspire Competence et cetera.

[Socratov]

WRONG.

A bard charms the nearest wizard into summoning those things for him. After first self-buffing with Inspire Competence et cetera.

well, anyway, Homebrew thread is up

[Ansem]

It's at least a little justified, given the lack of evidence on your side, along with your somewhat persistent claim that it is the correct one. If that is not still your stance, then you should probably say so, because argument inertia means that you're usually assumed to hold the same position until stated otherwise. Bards are cool, and also often unfairly maligned. Folks get a bit defensive where they're concerned as a result.

I'm still on the same boat, just glad people can make an use of the Bard.
My problem with that specific case is:
1. Why the hell isn't it energy mixtured for automatic slow/sicken (well worth the extra damage)
2: way too much symbolic value on the range of the buff when he's basically never going to be in a situation to actually make use of it
3: wizard/cleric have plenty of spells to add energy damage to weapons, and unlike bardsong they can be meta'd so a bit redundant
4: It's not terrible, but it's your entire build for one buff....
And still of the opinion it's sad to call names.

[Shining Wrath]

well, anyway, Homebrew thread is up

Typo in title. Or else you mean something different by "homebrewing"

[eggynack]

1. Why the hell isn't it energy mixtured for automatic slow/sicken (well worth the extra damage)

I'm not really sure what you mean here. Also, if this is a plausible thing, then huzzah, more power for bards.

2: way too much symbolic value on the range of the buff when he's basically never going to be in a situation to actually make use of it

It's a helpful thing for army scenarios, which are valid scenarios. As is though, this argument is mostly that there's too much awesome here, and you don't need that much. In other words, not a valid argument against bardic power.

3: wizard/cleric have plenty of spells to add energy damage to weapons, and unlike bardsong they can be meta'd so a bit redundant

First, what wizard or cleric spell adds that much damage to that many targets, or even that much damage to a smaller number of targets? We're talking about something close to a mass venomfire effect here. Second, why does it matter? Bards aren't wizards, and they can't be wizards. They're tier 3, and that makes the valid comparison between them and warblades, factotums, and beguilers.

4: It's not terrible, but it's your entire build for one buff....

Not really. If you took away all of that inspire courage stuff, like just all of it, you'd still be a tier 3 class, on the basis of skills and spells.

And still of the opinion it's sad to call names.

Given that the "name" was basically "Making a claim without any evidence," it seems like a valid thing, given that you're still ignoring a whole pile of arguments, and claiming bardic suckitude regardless.

[Urpriest]

I'm still on the same boat, just glad people can make an use of the Bard.
My problem with that specific case is:
1. Why the hell isn't it energy mixtured for automatic slow/sicken (well worth the extra damage)

You...should probably look up the feat Energy Admixture before you keep posting. It's in Complete Arcane.

[nyjastul69]

well, I pegged leomund to be the real estate guy... (Leomund's tiny hut and all that), though Mordekainen could have been high level enough to be bored out of his skull enough to research the spell. Also, I think the martini's tastiness should be linked to the number of casterlevels.


I gather it's a song of some sort? I could homebrew a bard spell which creates the perfect background music for the situation...

You know what, I'll be starting a new thread on homebrewing the complete bar and hotel resort.

It might sound something like this...



My favorite beach song ever.

[SliceandDiceKid]

Don't you have access to all the songs in the PHB? Or in my skimming did I overlook something about having to pick some at specific levels?

[Socratov]

Don't you have access to all the songs in the PHB? Or in my skimming did I overlook something about having to pick some at specific levels?

Yes, but in some situations it's better to trade some songs away you are only going to use situationally for ACF's that will help you a lot more. these ACF's are found all over the place (bard is one of the best supported classes in all of DnD). Notable ones are Bardic Knack (PHBII), Healing Hymn (CDiv) and trading bardic music for feats (Eberron Campaign Setting).

[SliceandDiceKid]

Yes, but in some situations it's better to trade some songs away you are only going to use situationally for ACF's that will help you a lot more. these ACF's are found all over the place (bard is one of the best supported classes in all of DnD). Notable ones are Bardic Knack (PHBII), Healing Hymn (CDiv) and trading bardic music for feats (Eberron Campaign Setting).

Ok cool. I saw the tiny section in the eberron c setting and it led me to believe that.

I assume in actual gameplay, fascinate/suggest just isn't reasonable. Knack, song of growth, savage, and song of heart are really awesome. And yes the line from earlier is a Zach brown band song.

[Chronos]

I assume in actual gameplay, fascinate/suggest just isn't reasonable.

Depends on what you mean by "isn't reasonable". If you mean the part about them being negated by any overt threat, it's easy enough to coordinate that with your allies, so they wait to draw on the creature until after you've done your thing. If you mean that the save DCs are ludicrously high, well that's true, but that's just one more point of evidence of the strength of bards as written.

[SliceandDiceKid]

Depends on what you mean by "isn't reasonable". If you mean the part about them being negated by any overt threat, it's easy enough to coordinate that with your allies, so they wait to draw on the creature until after you've done your thing. If you mean that the save DCs are ludicrously high, well that's true, but that's just one more point of evidence of the strength of bards as written.

I mostly mean the fascinate/suggest
2 rounds in an action economy game.

Still just now giving the bard serious consideration. I suppose it could still be great for distractions... Non combat wise.

[SliceandDiceKid]

Oh my God

+10d6 at level 8?!
I just pieced together how early you get this for one spell, one 1400gp item, two feats, good alignment, and a masterwork horn (which I can't find a price for but assume from several posts 100gp/lb).

I now formally apologize for my awful blasphemous doubts.

Thank you for correcting my path.

[Talya]

I mostly mean the fascinate/suggest
2 rounds in an action economy game.

Still just now giving the bard serious consideration. I suppose it could still be great for distractions... Non combat wise.

Fascinate/suggestion can actually be very good, depending on the campaign. I still tend to trade them away. If I really want suggestion (and I do), I take it as a level 2 spell known.

[SliceandDiceKid]

Dragontouched has two benefits. The first is that you get the dragonblood subtype (which silverbrow also does). The second is that you qualfiy for Draconic Feats as if you were a sorcerer of your character level -- this is the only way to get that, short of being a sorcerer.



Silverbrow has you descended from silver dragons, but it doesn't change your damage type. The only things that do that are Half Dragon, Draconic Heritage, and a level of Dragon Shaman.

Ironically, an actual Silver Dragon Bard would still get Fire for his energy type if he took DFI.

Also thank you for your consistent, constructive input. May I ask how the level of dragon shaman allows you to alter the energy type?

And a source for this.
Thanks :)

[Deadline]

Also thank you for your consistent, constructive input. May I ask how the level of dragon shaman allows you to alter the energy type?

And a source for this.
Thanks :)

Dragon Magic or Races of the Dragon is the source (I forget which). I know you get Dragontouched as a bonus first level feat from ... Dragonfire Adept? At any rate, Dragontouched grants you the dragonblooded subtype, and lets you qualify for feats as a sorcerer of your level. That means you can take the Draconic Heritage feat, which lets you pick a type of dragon to be your ancestor (which works with Dragonfire Inspiration). So, Dragontouched + Draconic Heritage = dragonblooded of a type of dragon of your choice.

[Shining Wrath]

Dragon Magic or Races of the Dragon is the source (I forget which). I know you get Dragontouched as a bonus first level feat from ... Dragonfire Adept? At any rate, Dragontouched grants you the dragonblooded subtype, and lets you qualify for feats as a sorcerer of your level. That means you can take the Draconic Heritage feat, which lets you pick a type of dragon to be your ancestor (which works with Dragonfire Inspiration). So, Dragontouched + Draconic Heritage = dragonblooded of a type of dragon of your choice.

Both Dragonfire Adept and Dragonborn ritual grant Dragontouched, which gives you the dragonblooded subtype and also gives you some minor skill points, and 1 HP in addition to qualifying for sorcerer feats.

A Dragonborn Dragonfire Adept doesn't get the bonus feat twice - I don't think - since the feat doesn't mention that you can take it multiple times.

[Marnath]

Also thank you for your consistent, constructive input. May I ask how the level of dragon shaman allows you to alter the energy type?

And a source for this.
Thanks :)

Your energy matches your totem dragon instead of always being fire.

[SliceandDiceKid]

Your energy matches your totem dragon instead of always being fire.

I figured this was the connection. But how do you reach this conclusion RAW?

[dextercorvia]

I figured this was the connection. But how do you reach this conclusion RAW?

It's in the sidebar at the bottom of page 18 or Dragon Magic.

Whenever a dragon shaman selects a feat or other option whose effect depends on a character’s draconic heritage (from the Draconic Heritage feat), treat his totem dragon as his heritage selection.
For example, if a dragon shaman who has chosen silver dragon as his totem selects the Dragonfire Assault feat, the extra damage dealt by the feat would be cold damage, as appropriate for a character with Draconic Heritage (silver).