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2016-08-01, 05:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level
Party compositions losing steam around 8th to 10th level is something I've noticed with both my 3rd edition and Pathfinder games and it wasn't like anyone voiced any kind of dissatisfaction with the combats. But that happened to me only three times over 16 years, so I am not sure how representative that really might be.
However, I think that at least in my cases, it really was more about the campaigns being mostly serial one-shots with little investment in either the characters or the setting by the players and that it was primarily a matter of play time and not about character advancement. I believe with a campaign that has more long term goals and a deeper integration of the PCs into the game world this would probably be much less of a problem.We are not standing on the shoulders of giants, but on very tall tower of other dwarves.
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2016-08-01, 05:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level
Having started campaigns at level 13+, I can say that the game can be very enjoyable in that range too. However, it requires that the party be crafted so that everyone is playing the same game (essentially, everyone or nobody is a full list spellcaster). Our first 3rd edition campaign ran from 1st level to a mishmash of 13th-14th level and even the caster players who had no idea of what they were doing were just clearly playing a different game than the rest at that point. When we played Expedition to the Demonweb Pits, our party had a caster and a non-caster and ultimately the party had a caster, a few demons more powerful than the non-caster subservient to the caster, and said non-caster. The non-caster was essentially a completely trivial existence. However, games where we've actually all rolled on the same side of the spell versatility/power spectrum, those are great. The system is just two different games in one - non-casters don't advance far enough. Epic non-casters would need to be capable of deeds like those of Heracles or Achilleus to be able to exist in the same spectrum.
In AD&D it was a bit different due to the casters' leveling speed, spell preparation times, dangers of casting certain spells and spells' vulnerability to disruption, but fundamentally the same dynamics exist (hell, that's true for the OG characters as is apparent from literature) - though back then it was only Mages, but they were still playing the game of "divine ascension, guardian of the world, etc." while non-casters were high level Mercenaries or whatever. Essentially, the Mages were the big world-defining beings that were on a quest for ultimate power/artifact/stopping whatever evil being from being manifested in any given plane, while the other characters (if any) were the tagalongs. Everyone had their strongholds and retainers and potentially countries or whatever, but the personal power of the magi was still the thing that truly shaped the world; hell, the classic adventures are generally "Spellcaster X does Y, heroes try to intervene" (be it Vecna's ascension, Acecerak's untold plan or whatever). Magus Keeps in and of themselves exist mostly so that the spellcasters can use their arcane rituals in peace.Last edited by Eldariel; 2016-08-01 at 05:55 AM.
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2016-08-01, 01:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level
FWIW, Hackmaster somewhat addresses this by flattening the curve... a level 20 HM character is about on par with a level 10 AD&D character, or a level 7 WD&D character. Mundane skills have limits, and many skills are opposed checks, so your Rogue can't have a check that always succeeds... just one that usually succeeds.
So, you still get the experience of moving forward, but each move is a smaller step than AD&D or WD&D.The Cranky Gamer
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2016-08-02, 11:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level
This question makes me think of the following article. A very interesting read. Enjoy!
D&D Calibrating your Expectations
Enjoy!
Dizlag
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2016-08-02, 06:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level
From a different thread I learned that some prefer high level "anima" style play rather than low level traditional Swords and Sorcery inspired stories.And that's it, low and high (or traditional D&D vs. D20) are different genre's.
One is Howard and Leiber, the other is Myth and Wuxia. The transition from one to the other is jarring (also the more I learn of them D20 sounds as bad or worse to me than the much maligned 4e).
For the types of Swords and Sorcery stories I like, I think oD&D was often better, and my ideal D&D would combine oD&D and 5e.
Also the BRP'ish Stormbringer! game of the early 1980's often did Swords and Sorcery better than D&D, but it's flaw was that with its random generation method your PC was as likely to be a drooling begger as well as a mighty sorcerers or warrior, making many of the PC's "sidekicks". Perhaps something with Champions/GURPS style build points, and just get away from levels?
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2016-08-02, 11:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level
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2016-08-03, 03:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level
That high-level D&D supports a different genre than low levels do was never in question. The problem being discussed here is that high-level rules don't work for the power level they imply. Or at all. It's also arguable how much of the power increase was predicted and intended by the designers.
Last edited by Morty; 2016-08-03 at 03:32 AM.
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2016-08-03, 05:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level
I think part of the issue (as far as I understand it) is that D&D grew out of the house-rules of a bunch of gamers whose original campaign characters (Bigby, Mordankainen et al) were magic-users, and a lot of the mechanics kind of assume that it will be the wizards who will be the world-shakers and shapers. That doesn't fit with much of other fantasy literature sources, where martial and roguish types have more ability to do the heroic deeds that change the world (often by killing the wizard overlord). If you look at core things that define D&D, I would say that amongst them are the D20 die roll vs AC for the to-hit mechanic, Fighters getting +1 to hit per level, and casters getting a new spell level every odd level, with fireball and lightning bolt at level 3 and teleport and cloudkill at 5. Even with the differential XP requirements in 2nd Ed, linear martials and exponential casters is sufficiently hard-baked into D&D that if one were to try, say, giving full casters bardic spell progression, the game would be unrecognisable as D&D.
Another issue in my mind is the advent of cRPGs and the internet. I played tabletop D&D for much of the early part of my teens, and getting a character above 5th level was a pretty rare occurrence, either because the campaign was too deadly or the DM had a better idea and wanted to start again. Between reloading after character deaths and replaying after a TPK, there's an assumption that the player will eventually complete and win a cRPG, and generally that means advancing characters to the limits of the (limited, compared to ttRPG) advancement and power available. This perhaps creates an expectation that if you create a wizard, he will be able, at some point, to cast, quickened stinking clouds and contingencies and the rest. Even early level weaknesses are avoided by the likes of abrupt jaunt. Any difficulties in squeezing maximal power out of a build can be overcome by a quick trip to the playground for advice from experts in optimisation.
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2016-08-06, 01:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level
I haven't seen this one mentioned yet: resurrection. At low levels, failing in a quest can mean death. At low levels, that's the end of that character's story, and the player rolls up a new one. Death matters. Once raising dead characters becomes an option, then you can't threaten the characters with death like you used to. Instead of "if you fail, you die" being a motivator, it becomes "fail, and the undead hordes overrun the kingdom". Once that happens, you're telling a different story than you were, one that's about grand strategy and logistics instead of the people at first level.
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2016-08-06, 02:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level
The issue with this is continuity. That the world described at level 1 and level 15 are supposed to be the same world but do not feel that way-one is a world of tracking dried rations, torches, and putting a piece of steel through a goblin that a farming family could kill themselves but not without getting hurt...thee later involves hell beasts, dragons, magical devices etc. . . The effects of the later world are disruptive to the former even if they are not exactly overlapping in physical space.
As for why the transition to building your keep at tenth level (which was treated as assume/forced in some books) never caught on is that while historically "the best fighter becomes leader" was basically true the definition of fighter was broader in that by 4-6th level much of their duties. Would be small group battles that most D&D doesn't cover. Thus the switch can seem unnatural in the game. Yes. It is basically two different games but really it should have been three, they just dropped the middle one.
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2016-08-08, 02:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level
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2016-08-08, 09:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level
In my experience with 4e the game began to crack in the mid paragon levels (15+) and was truly broken in low epic (22+). I've both played and DM'd Epic 4e games and the mechanics just end up getting in the way, there's do much stuff that your character has in terms of powers, items, features and at those levels it all starts to become unwieldy. I have enjoyed those tiers of play in 4e, but they are not the strong point of the system (that'd be Heroic and low Paragon).
By contrast, my 5e experience has been really good at all levels of play. My RL group just hit 19th level and none of us feel the crushing weight of character options that we did on 4e at equivalent levels. In our experience the game remains balanced between characters within the party and fights don't drag on for hours like in 4e."We have sent many to Hell, to smooth our way," said I, "and we are standing yet and holding blades. What more?"- Roger Zelazny, This Immortal
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2016-08-12, 05:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level
No matter where you go...there you are!
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2016-08-12, 09:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level
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2016-08-13, 05:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level
The simple answer might be that the creators of D&D don't have the ability to look ahead. But then, even if they could they would still need to ''think like a gamer'', and most can't do that anyway. They would also need to see the rules as more ''rules for an alternate reality'' and not ''some rules to just adventure with'', but few can do that.
Ultimately it might just be harsh reality. A 1-20 system would take lots of work, time, rules and most of all insight. But the publisher just ''wants to toss a game out there and make some money''. And more ''reality rules'' and ''high level play rules'' would have added pages. And the books are big as it is....and expensive enough too.
The old basic/expert/companion/master/immortal sets might be the best leveled D&D.
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2016-08-20, 11:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level
They put a lot of effort into making the ''basic'' game, that is levels 1-5. They put a tiny bit of thought into 5-10, but then they just stop. You notice how there are fewer high level everythings...abilities, spells, items....everything.
As some one who has played a lot of spellcasters I've always been annoyed when I get a high level spellcaster that specializes in a type of magic...and they have two whole spells at a level I can pick from.....
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2016-08-20, 07:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level
Last edited by Digitalelf; 2016-08-20 at 07:10 PM.
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2016-08-21, 03:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level
The basic mindset of D&D is that you will only play a character for a limited time. A character will start off small, adventure, and then end with a big climax.
Like levels 1-5 are Basic: the character is just learning the ropes, 6-10 the character is an expert and they are right in their prime. But after 10th they are a master, and a bit too powerful for mundane things. And this is even more true with 15th level plus of grandmaster.
It is easy to see a 1-10th level character doing thinks like opening locked doors, sneaking past guards and fighting minions. But after 10th level it becomes a bit awkward. A master character does not feel right doing such mundane things like opening a door. And there is only a slight window where a high level character might ''pick open the gates of Hell'', but you really can't do that more then once.
D&D just does not scale up much past that level of power. It is easy to see in just characters as they could not think of a high level abilities for most classes. The same way there are only a few higher level feats, spells, magic items and just about everything else.
And that is how the creators see it, and designed the game.
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2016-08-22, 01:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level
No matter where you go...there you are!
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2016-08-22, 09:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level
Fall apart? It's just making the jump from good to excellent.
Assuming no cheese. (mainly summons Wishes or unlimited wealth tricks)
Teleport is a thing, but it's awkward. The Cleric can manage to bust out one Heal, but not chain them. The melee types are just getting to where their feats/ability chains are coming online, and they have enough spare cash to get some cool bonuses on their weapon. The Paladin is thinking that if he sold everything he owned, he could maybe afford that Holy Avenger, even if it wouldn't be practical for a few more levels.
And look at what you get to face. Real demons, devils, vampires, adult dragons, groups of fire giants, the kraken, really big hydras, purple worms, a lich or ghost with a bunch of class levels, and all the other iconic creatures.
The DM gets to give out iconic treasures without blowing up his game. A big flying carpet. A few Wishes at the end of a quest. Etc.
Some of the best classic modules fall right in that range. Tomb of Horrors. Against the Giants. Barrier Peak.
For me, the game doesn't come apart until 9th level spells are common. That means if you did some cheesy stuff to get them at L13, you broke the game, but it should really be L18 or so.
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2016-08-25, 09:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level
Unlike a lot in this thread my experience is mainly with 3.5 or Pathfinder.
I haven't managed to take a game past level 8, I don't think this is to do with the game falling apart more to do with the players getting bored of their characters and wanting to try something else.
I guess a simple way for me to test this is start a game at lvl 10 and see how long it lasts.SpoilerMilo - I know what you are thinking Ork, has he fired 5 shots or 6, well as this is a wand of scorching ray, the most powerful second level wand in the world. What you have to ask your self is "Do I feel Lucky", well do you, Punk.
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2016-08-25, 09:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level
That's a lot of it. Actually, it's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy. They don't put a lot of resources into supporting high-level play, since nobody plays at high level. And because there's very little support for high-level play, nobody plays at high level.
Most of the rest is the increasing complexity. As players (and GMs) get more resources, they wind up combining in unforeseen ways, and there are more decision points to make. While you still have the same number of actions (most likely), the number of choices about what to do with your action go up substantially, as well as the effort involved.
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2016-08-28, 09:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level
I posted the following in a different thread, but since it seems to fit:
Quite true, high level and low level D&D play are not the same.
Recently this Forum has had threads by those who don't like high levels:
Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level
Those who like high level "Naruto/Wuxia"" style adventures, and prefer 3.5 because of that:
Sell me on 5th edition
And those that simply hate low levels
Roleplaying level one
I think it's a strength that D&D can accommodate different power levels, but if players & DM's enjoy those different levels is another matter.
While going "Dragonslaying" has appeal, I (for example) usually retire PC''s at around 5th level, others may start at even higher levels. To each their own, but it may be a more noticible problem now because (at least with 5e) PC's level up much faster than they used to! This makes the transition from low to high levels harder to acclimate to. IIRC it used to take at least three times as much "table-time" to "level up", as it used to. But don't just take my word for it, let's see what a co-creator of D&D wrote about level progression:
Originally Posted by April 1976 issue of the Strategic Review
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2016-08-29, 04:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level
D&D can't accommodate different power levels. That's the whole ticket here. It claims to do so, but it doesn't. Different editions have different breaking points, but it always happens. "The DM needs to decide" is a non-answer with about as much meaning as your average marketing slogan. The person running the game always needs to adjust and make judgements of some sort. But the system is supposed to cooperate with them on it.
Last edited by Morty; 2016-08-29 at 04:35 PM.
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2016-08-31, 02:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level
I wouldn't say that D&D makes particular claims that it accommodates different power levels (certainly no outright claims that it does so effectively), but it has always been arranged to ALLOW vastly different power levels with the same characters and same campaign over time. It DOESN'T manage this shift in power levels at all well. It never even warns you that it can/will occur. It just IS how it is and it's pretty much always been left for the individual participants to know about it beforehand or learn it the hard way.
"The DM needs to decide," is, however, a perfectly valid answer. The DM always does decide, as you say, even in a system which keeps PC's much closer within the same power range from the start to finish of a campaign. In ANY game (whether it's D&D or something else) it is possible for PC's to exceed the expected range of power that the DM is prepared for. The DM then either needs to escalate from his side so that opponents and challenges begin to match the PC's greater capabilities, or else take steps to REDUCE PC power to whatever is more manageable. Most games don't really allow for the latter. In D&D you could destroy some magic items and reduce PC power that way, but that will only go so far. For most practical purposes if a D&D game gets into a power scale that the DM doesn't like or can't handle you don't have much option but to just start over with a new game, or at least new PC's. That tends to be unsatisfying for everybody.
Is it supposed to cooperate to allow tweaking power levels? It would be better if it did, but it really doesn't and never has. Prior to 3E there's almost no tools except experience to help a DM make judgement calls about the game's power level. 3E made use of a "Challenge Rating" system for helping to adjust the power level of encounters to the abilities of the PC's, but it's still just a TOOL and not a FORMULA that guarantees any consistent results. There are simply too many variables to make it practical.
But the idea of what D&D really is and how it is meant to be played has actually changed A LOT since it was first published. Early on it was not really thought of as a roleplaying game at all. It was a dungeon exploration game which differed from other wargames that it was derived from by focusing on one or two individual persona for each player rather than large military units. It wasn't until AD&D (1E) was published that actual roleplaying was being emphasized at all, but it was still heavily an "action" game with individual characters rather than military groups, and lots of reference to the presence of large military groups within the game can still be seen. 2E de-emphasized the military angle even more and played up the individual character more. With 3E it had become ALL about the individual PC and in fact the game was designed NOT around roleplaying so much (though it was still there) but promoted that the idea of D&D was that the FUN was to be found in building the most powerful, effective individual character that you could and becoming experienced and knowledgeable enough about the rules to do so. It became as much or more a game of individual achievement in character construction as roleplaying and cooperation with other players and their PC's for survival. Certainly it was the aspect of individual character design that the rules revolved around and it was those rules that WotC emphasized over everything else. That and the details of tactical combat rules.
That doesn't mean 3E was BadWrongFun. It just means that it was now quite different from what the game once had been. But much of the general rules structure was largely unchanged. Characters still began at 1st and with each level gained better ability to hit, absorb damage, etc and that meant that the same shift in power occurs in the game DESPITE the considerable change in what the gameplay was supposed to be focused around.
Think of it this way: At first level you have 1 HD. At 10th level you're gonna have 10 HD (along with various other increases in basic power that are somewhat parallel to HD.) People don't think about it much but that means that a character has TEN TIMES the damage absorption that he had when he first started. That applies whether your HD were d4's or d12's. Not everything about combat scales equally during that time but it's easily seen that this means a HUGE shift in what actually will challenge the character. Monsters and situations that were a challenge at 1st are no challenge whatever at 10th - by a factor of nearly ten. You either KNOW that about the game and take steps as DM accordingly - or you learn it the hard way and end up dealing with it in any case. You can embrace the power shift. You can do your best to try to ignore it. You can make changes to render it as ineffective as possible, such as by continuing to scale up challenges in an equal manner rather than leaving them with relatively fixed numbers.
"The DM decides," isn't just a valid answer - it's pretty much the only answer.
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2016-08-31, 04:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level
Eh.... I don't think that I'd agree with that.
Yes, it switched from being primarily a dungeon exploration game to being one more about "stories", but I really don't think that makes one or the other more or less a "roleplaying" game.
The essence of roleplaying, to me, is:
"You're in this situation, what do you do?"
"I do this!"
What the situation is specifically is fairly irrelevant.
What is true is that the game became less specialized over time, or at least specialized in different areas.
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2016-09-02, 08:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level
I think the characters are very important to role-playing. If I may paraphrase what you said:
The essence of roleplaying, to me, is:
"Your character in this situation, what do you do?"
"S/he does this!"
In fact the separation between you and your character is a very significant difference between role-playing games and every other type of game there is. ... I also think that most CRPGs are actually mislabelled, but there you have it.
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2016-09-03, 06:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level
I would definately second that it is because it started as a collection of house rules to handle dungeon crawls. There was never any real coherent design behind the original setup. For example, the magic system is entirely seperate from the combat system. The skill system is bolted on seperately again, and hacked together at best. The concepts are not properly defined, giving you such results as power attacks being less likely to get through armour, and elephants being some of the best animals at dodging things. There is also an abundance of absolute effects with specific defenses, and very rarely is there trade offs. For example, there is no "obscure vision" spell line applying scaling penalties, there is simply "blindness". Iron heart surge like effects are much needed to avoid christmas trees of items against every shut down effect. Ideally there should be some cost to the defender that depends on the power of the effect, but the system is not set up to facilitate that. By the time you get past level 10 the system is a mess.
Special mention goes to black tentacles, which creates magically invincible nonmagical tentacles that hit even if a god gives you an AC of 'no' (+100 sacred bonus), then grapple without following the grapple rules... Why!?
Basically the system was built outwards from wizards on a dungeon crawl without much planning, so the parts don't line up. This gets more extreme the further from 'basic' you get: ie, higher level.I play dwarf mode: Play to win, never be sober, and always die horribly despite everyone's best efforts (DM included).
I have a blog now! I make no claims to be that fool on that hill, but I do like to think I think the same way. Check it out for some of my more nutty thoughts.
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2016-09-03, 08:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level
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2016-09-04, 06:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level
To kyoryu: I feel it is an important distinction, so I guess I do feel better if it is explicit. What are the other "patterns" used in other role-playing games? Reacting to a changing situation, and hence effecting the situation, seems to be the minimum for interaction. I'm not sure how far you can get from that.