In a zombie apocalpyse

[Ravens_cry]

Speaking of looters, those are what I really fear in a zombie situation, people who decide that the end of the world removes that veneer of shared civility we call "civilisation."
A lurcher?
Keep out of melee range, pack light and be ready to vamoose, and you should be OK.
But a human is much more unpredictable.

[Kjata]

Speaking of looters, those are what I really fear in a zombie situation, people who decide that the end of the world removes that veneer of shared civility we call "civilisation."

If there are zombies running around and civilization has collapsed, i WILL kill you for damn near anything. If you have food, medicine, ammunition, entertainment, whatever, there are really two outcomes: Either you share, or you die.

The same applies in any situation of imminent death. My life is more important than everyone elses put together.

No heroics from Kjata.

[Mathis]

Sometimes playgrounders, you scare me.

[RockmanDotEXE]

I'd become the living trap detector and zombie bait. Other then that, I would probably dole out advice and act as a mediator between feuding parties. I /might/ be able to hit things upside the head with a bat. I'd probably just do the Rincewind manuver and suggest everyone else does the same when things came my way.

[noparlpf]

If there are zombies running around and civilization has collapsed, i WILL kill you for damn near anything. If you have food, medicine, ammunition, entertainment, whatever, there are really two outcomes: Either you share, or you die.

The same applies in any situation of imminent death. My life is more important than everyone elses put together.

No heroics from Kjata.

You missed the third outcome: You die.

[Ravens_cry]

And that attitude is going to kill more humans, directly or indirectly, than zombies. While possessing infinite pain tolerance and a pretty hefty ability to take damage, your average lurcher is slow and beyond stupid.
Only a threat if you act that stupid.
But a human after that last few gallons of gas at the pump and willing to kill to get it?
That's a threat.
A scared human with a gun and an itchy trigger finger?
That's a threat.
A gang with more bullets than brain cells, drunk on looted liquor?
That's a threat.

[Karoht]

In a situation of 'people attacking with guns' instead of zombies, that is when I make a retreat as fast as possible, with cover fire. Or I wave a white flag if retreat isn't an option. I'm not a shoot first person, even if they're pointing guns at me.

[Solaris]

I'm starting to really like reading some of Ravens Cry's text. There's a serious psychological concern about any out-break scenario. That concern is, "How many people are really ready to end human life? The simulation of human life?"

What I'm talking about is the first few minutes. The first day. Before everyone learns to accept that the flesh falling off the zombies makes them Zombie and not Human.

I've heard stories of hardened military sniper school graduates who on their first mission couldn't take that shot and kill an enemy. And these are military guys who've been yelled at, screamed at, cussed at, beat up, and have a more disciplined psyche than most. They're professional killers and yet they have to come out of their own shadow to admit that they couldn't pull that trigger.

In past wars, something like ten percent of troops engaged actually tried to hit the enemy. In this current war, the percentage is signficantly higher - on the order of ninety percent, according to some reports. Neither of these figures factors in suppression fire, which is not intended to hit the enemy.

This, frankly, unnerves me - especially so considering that not all of our enemies in these latest engagements have been the military-aged males our grandparents had the luxury of fighting. Differences in training account for at least some of it, but... past generations have had troops who found it unsettling to even shoot at a target that just passingly resembles a human. I've not heard of anyone who's had that problem in the past few years.

I've also seen how very, very quickly people can abandon their civilized behaviors and kill each other at the slightest pretense. Look at any riot, and realize that most of those people were ordinary citizens before and after they participated in mass chaos and destruction. Your average human is a dumb, panicky animal who can't think past the next fifteen minutes and can't see past his own nose.

Thus, I have every faith in the average person's ability to kill, even those they claim to love and cherish.

If there are zombies running around and civilization has collapsed, i WILL kill you for damn near anything. If you have food, medicine, ammunition, entertainment, whatever, there are really two outcomes: Either you share, or you die.

The same applies in any situation of imminent death. My life is more important than everyone elses put together.

No heroics from Kjata.

... Why?
Not the bit about heroics, those are obnoxious and get people killed. No, I mean why would you operate as a predator in the given situation? Initiating combat to take something you want is inherently risky, and runs counter to your stated priority of your life over everyone else's. Better to live and let live in this kind of a situation. No fooling, you're much better off avoiding unnecessary combats... even if you really, really want that swanky DVD player or that gallon of gasoline.

In a situation of 'people attacking with guns' instead of zombies, that is when I make a retreat as fast as possible, with cover fire. Or I wave a white flag if retreat isn't an option. I'm not a shoot first person, even if they're pointing guns at me.

Pro-tip? If they're pointing guns at you, they probably intend to kill you. End them. I know I wouldn't point a weapon at someone unless a trigger pull was imminent - I expect civilians to be somewhat less disciplined, which makes ending them even more of an imperative.
A guard outside a perimeter is an obvious exception. He's just making sure you're not the threat.

[Karoht]

Pro-tip? If they're pointing guns at you, they probably intend to kill you. End them.

If a bunch of looters or raiders are in my 'camp' and pointing guns at me, I've probably already lost. Hence retreat or white flag. Most of my strategy in avoiding looters/raiders is not being found in the first place, and if found, attempting some kind of peaceful resolution where possible. The problem is that any group of looters probably won't try peaceful (trading) to get what they want. They will probably wait until nightfall, use stealth and darkness to get closer, and rely a bit on their numbers and surprise as advantages.

Yes, this means I should probably be more ruthless here. I'm confident that I'm capable of such, it's just not something I want to do.

I know I wouldn't point a weapon at someone unless a trigger pull was imminent - I expect civilians to be somewhat less disciplined, which makes ending them even more of an imperative.

Bingo. Random citizens will point guns, might even be trigger happy. I'm not planning on responding with an identical gesture, I plan on responding by lowering my weapon first in most situations, as long as my judgement tells me that such a response is appropriate. If I'm surrounded by guys with guns, lowering my weapon and trying to talk to them is probably a lot better an idea than trying to shoot my way out, or posturing as though I'm willing/capable of doing so.

Then again, you're the army guy. And likely been in far more situations where people were pointing guns at you than I'll ever be in.

[TechnoScrabble]

Like I said, if someone's threatening you or your group in any way, they need to be taken down a notch. Or six. Specifically, six under.

[Ravens_cry]

The trouble is knowing the difference between an actual threat and someone just as scared of this whole screwed up situation as you are.
Not that the two are necessarily mutually exclusive.
For zombie handling, a spear isn't the hardest weapon to make and add a crossbar near the tip and you can keep them from lunging down it at you.
Basically a boar spear.
Wouldn't be so great against a mob, but not much is that isn't in the artillery range.

[Story Time]

Pro-tip? If they're pointing guns at you, they probably intend to kill you. End them.

...I think I remember someone trying to call me out on a passage in a book? Something about body armor? This is the reason why. The humans are more dangerous than the zombies and the reason for the body armor.

[Maxios]

So, I've come up with a brilliant plan: set up a Giantitp nation .

[RockmanDotEXE]

Better to live and let live in this kind of a situation. No fooling, you're much better off avoiding unnecessary combats... even if you really, really want that swanky DVD player or that gallon of gasoline.

I know this is a minor thing to point out, but Gasoline seems like it'd be helpful in this kind of situation. Trading or using. Not so useful as to make it worth antagonizing people who're probably already in a situation that'd make things hectic or risking your life for, but useful. The DVD player has no excuse.

[RockmanDotEXE]

The trouble is knowing the difference between an actual threat and someone just as scared of this whole screwed up situation as you are.
Not that the two are necessarily mutually exclusive.
For zombie handling, a spear isn't the hardest weapon to make and add a crossbar near the tip and you can keep them from lunging down it at you.
Basically a boar spear.
Wouldn't be so great against a mob, but not much is that isn't in the artillery range.

I always thought the best thing between you and a shambling corpse would be about 15 feet of space. In the event of actual weapons, I've been lead to believe crowbars are a pretty good melee. They're pretty strong, not too unwieldy and you can use them open boxes or boarded areas. I might not be remembering the advice right.

[Ravens_cry]

I always thought the best thing between you and a shambling corpse would be about 15 feet of space. In the event of actual weapons, I've been lead to believe crowbars are a pretty good melee. They're pretty strong, not too unwieldy and you can use them open boxes or boarded areas. I might not be remembering the advice right.

Well, they are good as a last resort and as a utility device, and I would certainly carry one, but any time you can use one, you are almost certainly within reach of them as well, which is not where you want to be.
A boar spear on the other hand can keep them at bay, giving your buddy time to whip out, say, a meteor hammer style weapon, or a really long handled sledgehammer, to smash their skull in.
The one thing is you never want is a weapon that uses up irreplaceable resources except as a last resort, and in a full on apocalypse bullets are irreplaceable.
Irreplaceable resources means constant looting to get more and looting will put you in conflict with other humans who want them as well, the real danger of the apocalypse.
Same with bikes and horses verses motor vehicles. The latter may be faster, but use irreplaceable resources at an alarming rate.

[RockmanDotEXE]

Well, they are good as a last resort and as a utility device, and I would certainly carry one, but any time you can use one, you are almost certainly within reach of them as well, which is not where you want to be.

Fair enough.

A boar spear on the other hand can keep them at bay, giving your buddy time to whip out, say, a meteor hammer style weapon, or a really long handled sledgehammer, to smash their skull in.

I've always liked spears and halberds, I must say. The farther away from the person who wants you dead, the better, which is why I propose the Rincewind manuver.

The one thing is you never want is a weapon that uses up irreplaceable resources except as a last resort, and in a full on apocalypse bullets are irreplaceable.

Swords don't need reloading, as the saying goes.

Same with bikes and horses verses motor vehicles. The latter may be faster, but use irreplaceable resources at an alarming rate.

Plus, Horses act as emergency rations.
Steed. It's what's for dinner.

[Ravens_cry]

@RockmanDotEXE:
Pretty much.
The Rincewind Manoeuvre, or as Mythbusters put it so well, "De-ass the area with a quickness", is certainly the best resort much of the time though sometimes it's not, like when a companion is injured, such as a twisted ankle.

[dehro]

I'm thinking that we may be making the fuel shortage thing bigger than it actually is. there's so much talk about how much it costs, about crude oil shortage, and all that jazz, that we forget how much of the stuff is actually out there.

if the survivors of this thing are going to be in the few hunderd tops, we're going to have more gasoline around than we can possibly hope to need in our lifetime.
I don't know where you all live, but if suddenly for 5 days most customers of the gas stations around my area stopped buying the stuff... there'd be truckloads of it available all around me...enough for me not to ever have a real shortage...cars all over the place have some fuel in them, gas stations have several hunderd/thousand litres of the stuff at almost all times... there are fuel trucks criss-crossing the country at all times... really, I don't see how I could run out of the stuff unless I poured it all on the floor and lit a match. I don't plan on touring the planet non-stop..so I'm not going to need more than a couple hunderd litres to fuel a car and or motorbike.. and a few thousand litres a year for a generator or similar needs, if need be.

if the survivors number in the thousands all around us..then we probably have a whole different set of issues to deal with..more about rebuilding/keeping up democracy and isolating zombies than real survival issues. Fuel shortage could become a problem in the long run, but when you've got a few thousand able bodies, someone is bound to know something about refining petrol into proper fuel.. and as I said, there's tons of the stuff all around our planet, being in various stages of refinery r being shipped from one place to the other.

either way, supply lines wouldn't necessarily crumble all around us at the speed we've come to think of when contemplating zombiegeddon.

[Traab]

Well, they are good as a last resort and as a utility device, and I would certainly carry one, but any time you can use one, you are almost certainly within reach of them as well, which is not where you want to be.
A boar spear on the other hand can keep them at bay, giving your buddy time to whip out, say, a meteor hammer style weapon, or a really long handled sledgehammer, to smash their skull in.
The one thing is you never want is a weapon that uses up irreplaceable resources except as a last resort, and in a full on apocalypse bullets are irreplaceable.
Irreplaceable resources means constant looting to get more and looting will put you in conflict with other humans who want them as well, the real danger of the apocalypse.
Same with bikes and horses verses motor vehicles. The latter may be faster, but use irreplaceable resources at an alarming rate.

melee range = bad. But yeah, crowbars or axes are both decent utility weapons to carry with you. You can use them as a weapon in an emergency and use them for other things otherwise. But a crowbar id say not the best because you really have to SWING to smash a skull enough to brain a zombie. I mean, you have to REALLY commit to the swing to turn a brain to mush unless you have a nice long crowbar to add extra momentum.

Boar spear? Thats only marginally useful and only if you are in a group. If you want to hold a zombie back with one, you will need both hands to keep him back, leaving you stalemated. With a partner to go for the kill while you hold them off, it could be ok though.

Meteor hammer? No, its a fancy weapon that takes training to use properly. Stick with a spiked mace for skull smashing weapons.

I would suggest using bullets as much as possible, if only because they are the safest and easiest ways to take down lots of zombies without much personal danger. If I am going to mix it up in melee rnage with zombies, I want to know I took out half of them at range first. Yes supplies are a problem, but all it takes is one or two decent looting spots of gun and ammo stores or other places that sell bullets to supply you for taking down hundreds to thousands of zombies.

As far as gas goes, something to keep in mind is, in a full on apocalypse, there wont be many people around anymore to compete with over gas pumps. You could likely last for a long time going from town to town refilling until the stations start to break down or run empty. However, I still wouldnt recommend using cars as they are big, loud, and the roads are likely going to be impassible for 4 wheel vehicles due to congestion followed by abandonment. Stick to bikes, or at best motorcycles with saddlebags, so you have a small enough vehicle to maneuver with around obstacles. Yeah the third resident evil movie looked awesome with its big bad convoy of survivors, but in reality, it would have taken years to clear the roads of cars so it was possible to drive on them. It would have been nice if it worked, from a supply transport standpoint, but its just not practical.

[Ravens_cry]

I still say no to bullets. You don't want conflict with other humans, and needing bullets puts you in conflict with other humans over a limited and irreplaceable resource.
Dependence on bullets also just makes matters worse when you run out.
Yes, you need a buddy for a boar spear to make an actual kill, but what the heck are you doing out in a zombie apocalypse alone, pilgrim?
You're in bad shape if you are alone, as you need someone else to take turns with to keep watch.
Meteor hammer, OK, was a bad idea, which is why I also suggested a long handled sledge. Or a sharpened spade if you can get the zombie against a wall.

[Coidzor]

This talk of boar spears reminds me of something.... I've often wondered what would be a relatively easily replaceable thrown weapon that wouldn't so much destroy or incapacitate a zombie as make it even slower and catch on things/trip/cripple itself with the thing stuck in it over time.

[Ravens_cry]

This talk of boar spears reminds me of something.... I've often wondered what would be a relatively easily replaceable thrown weapon that wouldn't so much destroy or incapacitate a zombie as make it even slower and catch on things/trip/cripple itself with the thing stuck in it over time.

A bola to the legs would largely stop a zombie and, just looking at them, they don't look like the hardest weapon to make from scrounged materials.

[Traab]

I still say no to bullets. You don't want conflict with other humans, and needing bullets puts you in conflict with other humans over a limited and irreplaceable resource.
Dependence on bullets also just makes matters worse when you run out.
Yes, you need a buddy for a boar spear to make an actual kill, but what the heck are you doing out in a zombie apocalypse alone, pilgrim?
You're in bad shape if you are alone, as you need someone else to take turns with to keep watch.
Meteor hammer, OK, was a bad idea, which is why I also suggested a long handled sledge. Or a sharpened spade if you can get the zombie against a wall.

True, if several groups show up at the same gun and ammo store looking to loot it, things might get dicey. Of course, you will have the same problem at the grocery store too. And they will likely be armed with guns that beat your boar spears in a confrontation every time. But fighting in melee range is just begging for casualties against the zombies. Even the weakest romero night of the living dead zombies can get a lucky bite in if you insist on using axes, spears, and other up close and personal weaponry. You dont need enough spare ammo to take down 5 billion zombies, but at least enough to thin the herd in your immediate surroundings, making it easier to go out in hand to hand to mop up. *EDIT* Yeah, makeshift bolas would be fairly effective at crippling the movement rate of zombies. Im honestly not sure of a time when you would rather slow them down than kill them, but I suppose it would make it easier to aim a killing blow. So it could be handy for a one two punch. Wrap its legs with a bola, crush its skull when it falls, retrieve your bola and repeat.

[Ravens_cry]

I'm not sure about your part of the world, but in my hometown, places that sell ammo and guns are pretty thin on the ground. And a lot of people who managed to survive is going to be headed to those few locations. Yes, it would get ugly, fast.
Keeping away is a top priority.
A good long spear spear, even ones shorter than a pike, is more than enough to keep any Romero from reaching you, especially with affixing a crosspiece near the head.
As for food supply, one way to think long term is to grab the rotting fruit vegetables (tomatoes, cucumbers, squashes in assortment) as well as bulb vegetables and potatoes. While they aren't much good right now, they hold something very precious, the ability to make more food.
If I had the chance, I'd see about converting apartments and other multilevel buildings with flat roofs into rooftop gardens. Easier to defend than something on ground level in my opinion.
I'd keep guns only for dealing with intransigent fellow humans and as very, very much a last resort.

[Coidzor]

I'm not sure about your part of the world, but in my hometown, places that sell ammo and guns are pretty thin on the ground. And a lot of people who managed to survive is going to be headed to those few locations. Yes, it would get ugly, fast.

Around here in the east-central U.S. almost every sporting goods store and big box store sells ammo and every pawn shop and big box store has some manner of weaponry for sale and most pawn shops also advertise a modest supply of ammo.

Funnily enough, our malls have even less supplies than most ones you'd find in fiction, as we only have a couple of places that sell hunting knives and maybe some chef's knives were hiding from me when I went to the cooking supply store, but I didn't see anything useful there aside from a small quantity of dry goods.

Unless there is a group that has enough organization and wherewithal that they actually would be in the market for recruiting, after the initial scurry, there's going to be ammo leftover to scavenge from many such places, as there's too much for a group of even 50 people to carry off with them on foot.

[Traab]

I'm not sure about your part of the world, but in my hometown, places that sell ammo and guns are pretty thin on the ground. And a lot of people who managed to survive is going to be headed to those few locations. Yes, it would get ugly, fast.
Keeping away is a top priority.
A good long spear spear, even ones shorter than a pike, is more than enough to keep any Romero from reaching you, especially with affixing a crosspiece near the head.
As for food supply, one way to think long term is to grab the rotting fruit vegetables (tomatoes, cucumbers, squashes in assortment) as well as bulb vegetables and potatoes. While they aren't much good right now, they hold something very precious, the ability to make more food.
If I had the chance, I'd see about converting apartments and other multilevel buildings with flat roofs into rooftop gardens. Easier to defend than something on ground level in my opinion.
I'd keep guns only for dealing with intransigent fellow humans and as very, very much a last resort.

Yeah, but a good long spear is ONLY good for holding off a zombie. Handy if there is only one zombie there, but not so useful if there are more than one. You wont be killing many zombies with it. As for guns and ammo, there are two sportsmen outposts withing 12 miles of my house, a walmart that sells ammo of a few types, and a kmart that does as well. Thats 4 places with the last two being less than 3 miles away.

But what about my point that you will likely run into the same guys going grocery looting? After all, rotten veggies are all well and good for future planning, but you will need something to eat for the next few months until those crops start growing. And those same unpleasant people that would have caused high fatalities at the ammo shop are going to be just as willing to kill over that aisle of bottled water as they were over that shelf of ammo. So you might as well go for it and try to stock up on bullets as you will likely need them at some point.

[Story Time]

If I had the chance, I'd see about converting apartments and other multilevel buildings with flat roofs into rooftop gardens.

Cry forgot the most important step in building roof-top gardens. The step of making bridges to other buildings.

Also, what seems to be missing in this thread are traps. Zombies, like animals, can be trapped and then killed. This is a more effective tactic than fighting a zombie when a human is alone. Pit falls, swinging logs, log avalanches, rock avalanches, sharpened stake grids...all of these can be effective and require zero physical contact between zombie and human. Once the zombie is caught, simply let the trap and the zombie dry out, then burn it. Other combustible fuels like gasoline, charcoal, or coke will also work, including dry wood.

[The Bandicoot]

What's my role in my group of survivors? The guy in the passenger seat of the vehicle with the gun. And if we're in a low-zombie-population area, the guy holding a bat or an axe out the window shouting for the driver to move closer.

[TechnoScrabble]

Around here in the east-central U.S. almost every sporting goods store and big box store sells ammo and every pawn shop and big box store has some manner of weaponry for sale and most pawn shops also advertise a modest supply of ammo.

Funnily enough, our malls have even less supplies than most ones you'd find in fiction, as we only have a couple of places that sell hunting knives and maybe some chef's knives were hiding from me when I went to the cooking supply store, but I didn't see anything useful there aside from a small quantity of dry goods.

Unless there is a group that has enough organization and wherewithal that they actually would be in the market for recruiting, after the initial scurry, there's going to be ammo leftover to scavenge from many such places, as there's too much for a group of even 50 people to carry off with them on foot.

I just got back from Australia and I now live on an American military base bordered by three typical midwestern towns. So I can attest to ammunition and supplies for making it being abundant in the US.

Also, if the zombie are willing to wait four and a half years, they'll be facing down a trained Officer of the US military. So I expect I'd be much more competent then.