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2006-02-15, 12:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #281 - The Discussion Thread
Originally Posted by Amalthea
If you strike someone with 100hp and inflict 10hp of damage, it wasn't a direct head on blow. A glance or near miss. That would be like the sheet of lead hitting a shoulder or arm as they move to the side.
I agree that logic is logic, but sometimes you have to look within how the rules define their own logic and play with that. Otherwise you end up with cases where players look to play the logic game to sidestep the rules.
And really at that point, a sheet of lead makes a better weapon than a greatsword because it bypasses subdual damage and you end up with Metal Sheet Specializions in the party... ;D
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2006-02-15, 12:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #281 - The Discussion Thread
He does not enjoy killing people
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2006-02-15, 12:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #281 - The Discussion Thread
Originally Posted by Denaes
*Metal sheets on floor, big nasty paladin walking down the corridor in shiney full plate. Lightning bolt from around the corner on the floor = char grilled paladin
*Metal sheet fastened to wall. Custom magnetic spell on metal sheet, any clank clank warriors who walk by are now stuck to the wall.
But if 3.x regards 'unconsciousnes' as hit point loss there is something wrong there. By that token you could beat someone around the head with a sap/lead pipe/truncheon for hours and they would laugh at you. Ditto with a garotte.
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2006-02-15, 12:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #281 - The Discussion Thread
well, i beleive the WANG noise is a direct result of the lead sheets original excuse as proof of his manhood. which is humorous.
as for where its going... this has a very bugs bunny and elmer fudd feel to it. i suspect that the wascaly wabbit is going to win. but how he gets there is anyone guess.
great comic.
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2006-02-15, 12:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #281 - The Discussion Thread
Originally Posted by Lyc
The whole point of having 100 hp (a good amount for a 10th level Fighter) is that it's a measure of luck, skill & toughness. So you can't just get a single punch and KO someone who is that skilled.
Now I think there are alternatives that deal with being flatfooted (ie, not evading the blow).
I can't recall for sure. Having played D&D in about a year. Been running Spycraft 2.0 and that handles some of these principals differently.
But really, it's a tradeoff. If you allow PCs to be auto KOed by a sucker punch, then how they can hope to stand up against 30 orcs and a dragon? You might be placing expectations you'd have for a normal person on someone who is for all intents & purposes a trained superhuman.
You'd want a game that was less "heroic" and more "grim/gritty"
Originally Posted by Lyc
I can't see combats lasting an hour in game. And if you're in a combat beating someone down for hour and rolling dice all that time, it's time your GM just make a call that you took the guy down or he laughs at your puny attempts and walks away... or start a real combat.
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2006-02-15, 01:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #281 - The Discussion Thread
First, I totally agree that Belkar is an id with feet. This leads him to do anything he can get away with that crosses his mind.
I think most people who deny Belkar as being CE is that he doesn't lockstep into the "I will rule the world! Muhahaha!" types. He is most definately an evil, nasty, psychopathic halfling. He's my favorite PC.
Miko irritates me. I've played a paladin or two in my day, and loved playing them, so that's not the problem. It's just her attitude, and you don't lose powers on attitude, no matter how much everyone around you wants it to happen.
Spoiler Thoughts:
The duel will be cut short by an outside event, leaving further, unresolved tension. This event will certainly mean that the situation is far beyond the capacity of the Sapphire Guard to properly punish Belkar.
Quite honestly, if you have read Xykon and Redcloak have been up to, where they are located, what they intend to do with the legions of hobgoblins, and the oft mentioned "evilgasm", and considering this is about the time in a campaign for the obligatory battle, I think Azure City will be under seige soon. I also wouldn't put it out of possibility that Belkar and Miko are the ones to find out first.
Lastly, you can realistically cold-clock someone in perfect health with a 1D6 pool-cue on the first swing, provided it's critical. A 68 pound sheet of lead is going to really hurt.
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2006-02-15, 01:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #281 - The Discussion Thread
Originally Posted by Denaes
Of course, if such a comic were real, it would probably involve stick figures with not-quite-stick bodies fighting an evil lich who is trying to open some sort of gate in an effort to conquer the world (or perhaps the multiverse). There may be paladins who would cause controversy, and perhaps a group of villains who are the main characters' evil opposites.
Unfortunately, as far as I know, no such comic exists...
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2006-02-15, 01:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #281 - The Discussion Thread
Originally Posted by Denaes
By the same token, suppose in a barroom brawl, when somone who bench presses Volkswagons king hits his targets jaw, the target isn't going anywhere except in a heap on the floor, and thats with just a fist (normal fist not a super ninja monk attack).
The old rules for knockout weapons was you required surprise, an opponent with an unarmoured head (no helmets), a sucessful hit (at -4 on the roll for called shot) and then you had a 5% chance per strength point of knocking them out.
Much better ruling IMHO - and as for not being heroic it worked both ways, heros could whack the evil high priest(tm) before he started flinging holy words and death fingers everywhere. And the care bear types could merely knock guards unconscious instead of giving them a permanent dirt nap. It also meant helmets were more than a fashion accessory which obsucred eyesight and hearing.
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2006-02-15, 01:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #281 - The Discussion Thread
Originally Posted by PhoeKun
I have never stated any problems with how GMs (or comic writers) use dramatic events that make for a better story. Just talking D&D rules and what bringing in a weapon that auto-KOed would do.
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2006-02-15, 01:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #281 - The Discussion Thread
Originally Posted by jmucchiello
Also, by advancing the plot and creating an interesting backstory with Miko, Belkar is piling more XP on the -possible- killing of Miko.It was like two ninjas taped together to make one giant ninja...
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2006-02-15, 01:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #281 - The Discussion Thread
Originally Posted by Lyc
In that case D&D 2e was broken because my whole group hated it :D Just kidding
Though not by much - a sap iOriginally Posted by Lyc
D&D is a heroic RPG, not grim/gritty. It's about kicking in the door and taking names, not going down in one hit because of a low level character with a sap is attacking you.
They're both mutually exclusive and can't exist together. Just a connundrum of role playing.
You're either playing a heroic game or a grim/gritty game. You can't be heroic if the rules make you vulnerable to a wimp with a pipe and you can't have a grim/gritty game if you can laugh off glancing blows by running up walls, jumping over opponents and other crazy combat moves.
Grim/Gritty you're afraid of that random attack that can cripple or take you out.
So thats not a fault of the rule as you not liking the genre tropes
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2006-02-15, 01:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #281 - The Discussion Thread
Originally Posted by yuccadude
Miko wakes up and a new combat begins. If he wins again, he's defeated her twice.
Oppenents can be worth more ep alive than dead at times :D
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2006-02-15, 02:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #281 - The Discussion Thread
Originally Posted by Denaes
D&D is a heroic RPG, not grim/gritty. It's about kicking in the door and taking names, not going down in one hit because of a low level character with a sap is attacking you.
For example by the rules its entirely possible for a strong fighter to jump of a 2000 foot cliff, hit the ground leaving a crater, get up and then smite a horde of goblins singly handedly with a fork. An extreme example of course, but quite possible with enough hit points. The worst example I ever saw was a fighter shot at point blank range by a tank (it was in a _very_ short lived planer / cross campaign game). He didnt even flinch and then proceeded to chop the tank to bits with a battle axe (players walked out after that, me included).
Heroic? Definetly not. It's Roadrunner vs Coyote stuff.
KO rules, overbearing and grappling give the heros a sharp wakeup call they are not gods, without having to throw more super monsters at them (resulting in more ill gained XP and magic items). A mob of rampaging peasants can quickly bring down even a epic level fighter by sheer numbers if he pushes them too far.
Of course it can be taken too far the other way where heros cant walk down the street without dozens of sap wielding thieves rushing out at them, or where heros try to KO a dragon with a club.
I look for a happy medium.
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2006-02-15, 03:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #281 - The Discussion Thread
A quick comment to those who keep bringing up the matter of Miko breaking the court order. Read #228 again - the order doesn't prevent her from using Detect Evil, it merely prohibits her from using it to detect his alignment. It's pretty clear on that, since Belkar's argument is based on illegal search, preventing her from using any such divination abilities to invade his privacy.
Given that, her use of Detect Evil in the latest strip is perfectly legit, since she's using it not to detect his alignment, but to confirm that the figure in the bush is him, not another decoy. She says as much, commenting "it didn't prevent me from finding you".
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2006-02-15, 03:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #281 - The Discussion Thread
Originally Posted by Lyc
The falling part is 100% realistic. people fall that far and walk away from the landing spot. Is it likely? Not very.
Remember, this is a "Heroic" RPG, meaning that after a few levels you're soundly leaving the realm of human (ie, real world) plausability. So the higher level your characters, the more Heroic they will become.
If playing Heroic characters is an issue with suspension of disbelief, then D&D isn't trying to emulate the game physics you want. You want a more "Grim/Gritty" game that is less heroic and more down to earth.
Originally Posted by Lyc
There are options to explain the damage:
*A near enough miss to cause superficial damage.
*The player pulled a neo and barely moved out of the way, but not fully.
*Very close miss, but sonic shockwave & heat caused a bit of damage and tired him out.
It all has to be explained in a way that makes sense to the situation. HP isn't flesh wound damage. Not every hit with a sword breaks the skin, let alone stabs into your body. There are many cases of incidental damage, tiring, luck, etc.
Getting hit dead on with a tank gun would be death. That means that the character failed to move out of it's direct path because he tripped, was too tired, didn't notice it. Whatever. That's the mechanic of running out of HP. Once you start getting really low on HP, body tearing damage starts taking place.
The description of HP damage and it's effects are very much so common sense. Also, there isn't any way short of a magic force field that a character would take a full on direct hit or a near miss without moving, let alone flinching and diving for cover. Bad descrption making the rules look really stupid.
Originally Posted by Lyc
The first situation, here is what happened: The character falls off a cliff and on the way down starts to grab at roots and rocks, acheiving nothing more than scraping his hands. The character notices the rocky base of the cliff and knows it spells certain doom, so in a last ditch effort he pushes off the cliff away from the rody base area going into a tumble and crashing into the ground at a 40 degree angle reducing the damage by quite a bit. Staggered but thankful to be alive, he stands up and realizes that he's standing in a goblin burial ground... in the middle of a burial and the goblins look none too happy.
That is heroic. Like something out of Indiana Jones. You use your environment.
Now if the character takes any amound of damage (what is that 20d6, half with a reflex save?) there is the massive damage rules. The character makes a save or dies. Success is a stunned condition I believe.
The second situation could be explained like so:
The barbarian sizes up this metal war machine. Is it an arcane contraption? Surely it's evil. It's head turns towards the barbarian.. to speak? Possibly spew fire? The Barbarian continues to heft his mighty battle axe while circling his prey. Suddenly a booming sound erupts from it's cannon and the barbarian throws himself to the ground to get raked over with a wave of heat and shards of broken rock & metal. The barbarian is back up on his feet and charges the machine, jumping on top of it and repeatidly smashing his axe into it's hull. Each hit resounds with gonging noise and sparks flying. Bit by bit the barbarian finds softer areas to tear apart as his Axe starts to break apart under the strain...
Now I'm not sure what kind of tank stats were being used. I'd assume a high DR and that would mean if the Axe was non magical there was a good chance of breaking. If it's magical, there really isn't much more logic to it than that. I know there are plenty of softer spots on a tank to attack wtih a weapon.
Originally Posted by Lyc
It seems like your happy medium is below D&D's heroic mark. There are other games that are well suited for that sort of thing.
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2006-02-15, 03:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re:
Originally Posted by N/A
For those who dont know - in the Hackmaster game the players were playing there were two obsucre rules hidden in the books.
1) Mobs automatically overbear their targets
2) A group of 15 or more beggars is a mob of beggars
So they hit on the idea of recruiting hordes of beggars to take down dragons, towns, etc. I wonder if there will be a Bag War with Haley's bags of holding....
It seems like your happy medium is below D&D's heroic mark. There are other games that are well suited for that sort of thing
As for my D&D opinions about heroic, they're very much influenced by the Ravenloft campaign series (old version, not the cheesy later version). Heros had to work damn hard to be heroic, otherwise they were just another person trying to survive. (eg: similiar to Call of Cuthulu).
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2006-02-15, 04:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #281 - The Discussion Thread
Best Belkar/Miko comic ever! So, he loves her and they're gonna get married and have halfhalflings... right? :D
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2006-02-15, 04:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #281 - The Discussion Thread
It's truely refreshing to hear D&D concidered "Heroic Level" play. Over at a few other forums I frequent, Exalted is heroic level and many discribe D&D as "a bunch of farmboys who barely know how to use their weapons". And yes, I've had the same argument with another GM friend of mine on the topic of the KO hit. This is what we came up with that we were pretty happy with, so i just thought I'd through it out there.
Crunchstuff
KO Punch:
To deliever a KO punch, several factors must be taken into acount.
1.) The target must not be aware of the Attacker (I.E. must be taken by suprise)
2.) The weapon used MUST be disigned to do Subdual damage (I.E. No sword flats to the back of the head)
3.) The Target must not be on "High Alert" (I.E.if the guard has been warned that there are several intruders in his area, he is on "High Alert". If the Guard is a layabout or not expecting anything, he's not on "High Alert")
An attack roll is made against the target's Flat-footed AC. If it misses, the target knows he's been attacked and combat starts normally. If it connects, damage is rolled. The entire total (including an Sneak attack damage)=x. The target makes a Fort save DC: 10 (15 if the feat Improved KO Punch is taken) + x. If he fails the Fort save, he's knocked unconcious for x minates. If the target makes the saveing through he takes subdual damage equal to 1/2 x and is probably ticked off at being wacked on the head.
With this rule, your level is taken into acount in both the attack and the target. The sword swings both ways, however, so the players could be knocked out as well. One final, unoffical, rule was that this was a non-leathal move. If it was used by some "enterpriseing" player for easy kills, s/he will be warned once. Past that, the guards will suddenly all be on "High alert". After all, they've probably heard of that horrible demon that knocks people out before it guts them, and they're justifiably scared.
Finally, and back on topic, I think Belkar has something up his sleave. A plan is deffinatly in the mix.Random Stats:
Chickens Kicked: 0
TPK (as Player): 1
TPK (as DM): 5
D20s Melted: 1
Any and all typos in the former post are the result of a sick mind on the part of the reader. Get help, man!
I was a rather heavy poster a long time ago in the old forums (heck, I helped start the old 3.5 attempt at a democratic forum campaign setting!) and I thought I'd stick my head back in. Hi again!
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2006-02-15, 04:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #281 - The Discussion Thread
Originally Posted by Delgarde
We have therefore filed an injunction against further uses of the Detect Evil power, the Detect Evil spell, OR other class or race ability that might divine incriminating facts about my client.
Mine would be as follows
Miko is prohibited BY LAW from using the Detect Evil power in any way shape or form
Miko is prohibited BY LAW from using the Detect Evil spell in any way shape or form.
AND
Miko is prohibited BY LAW from using any other class or race ability that might divine incriminating facts about Belkar
I state BY LAW because it is a legally binding document that Miko agreed was both legal and binding when she submitted to it and by the 12 gods if her and Shojo's authority extends to other lands to apprehend Roy et al then the laws of other lands extend to Azure City.
As to her falling I have this to say: You can not both break a law and be lawful at the same time.
If the Pope can have someone outside of the Vatican arrested then Vatican city best be extraditing his royal emminence if he commits a crime on foreign soil.
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2006-02-15, 05:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #281 - The Discussion Thread
Originally Posted by zimri
The gods likely took no offense to Miko using detect evil while she wasn't supposed to, or it would not have worked.
Btw, you mwy wonder whether the court order is legit in Azure city. It may apply Somewhere, but it need not apply Anywhere. I mean, it could apply Nowhere.
Fickle thing, law.
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2006-02-15, 05:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #281 - The Discussion Thread
Originally Posted by The Doctor
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2006-02-15, 06:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #281 - The Discussion Thread
Originally Posted by rxmd
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2006-02-15, 06:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #281 - The Discussion Thread
Originally Posted by Kiaman- It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets. Avatar courtesy of Sneak -
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2006-02-15, 06:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #281 - The Discussion Thread
Originally Posted by GeekDaddy
Cats don't play with mice because they are cruel. A cat is a _very_ cautious predator. Rodents have a very nasty bite, and infection is a big killer in nature. A cat is a specialist in killing pray without getting hurt. An experienced cat will bat a mouse/rat a few times to disorient it, and then finish it off with a quick bite on the neck (a cat's canines are spaced exactly to fit between it's main pray specieses vertebra).
A domestic cat doesn't get the training from mommy that it would need, and doesn't really know what to do with a mouse. The instinct makes a cat bat the small squeaky thing around, but it rarely knows how to kill the prey.
[This has been an edjucational bulletin. Now, as a better informed human being you can dispense all dispense with the cat's are cruel/evil nonesense. Thank you.]
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2006-02-15, 06:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #281 - The Discussion Thread
Wow! I never knew that. Now I can laugh at all my friends.
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2006-02-15, 06:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #281 - The Discussion Thread
Originally Posted by Sylvius
Belkar is not out to torture/torment Miko. That's not what he does. Belkar is out for _revenge_! That is very much his driving force. There is a difference.
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2006-02-15, 06:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #281 - The Discussion Thread
For you people who are bothered by the grammer error, just imagine how much more annoying Miko probably found it.
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2006-02-15, 06:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #281 - The Discussion Thread
Originally Posted by Sonofapreacherman
A bit quick with your criticism, aren't you?
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2006-02-15, 06:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #281 - The Discussion Thread
Originally Posted by malagigi
Likewise, if a paladin has a strict code of honor, they can easily view that as more important than secular laws. They might agree to obey laws when possible, just because it's a nice thing to do, but in the end, their calling to serve the Power of Good may cause them to break those laws in an emergency (an emergency like a pint-size psychopath on the loose). If they continue to follow their core belief of "lawfulness"—their honor code—then the single breaking of a secular law will not cause them to change alignment. It is a nonlawful act, yes, but one does NOT change alignment from one nonlawful act. Only a consistent pattern of behavior will shift alignment, and contrary to popular belief, only a true switch to a nonlawful alignment will cause a paladin to fall. One evil act, and you fall; one nonlawful act, and you don't.
On the other hand, I could post a comic with Miko standing still for 12 panels, and within 5 minutes there would be someone posting, "Miko should Fall for her inaction!" ::)Rich Burlew
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2006-02-15, 07:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #281 - The Discussion Thread
Eh Don't know if this is to be considered a spoiler thing - if so then please moderate the text outta here asap...
Would it not be worse than death for Miko to loose her paladinhood ? Belkar once stated that such was his goal and according to Yoda, anger leads to the dark side ;) In Belkar's view it might be much better not to kill Miko at all, but let her live on ín shame as a fallen paladin ;)- It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets. Avatar courtesy of Sneak -