Dealing with Critical Fumbles

[JaronK]

So, I'm currently playing in a really fun game, but the DM likes critical fumbles for... everything. Roll a 1 to hit, and you throw your weapon away or similar. Now, I'm a caster, so this is fine for me... enemies roll their saves, not me. But we've got a melee character rolls three d20s with every attack (shield charger, so hit + trip + knockback), which means he's liable to chuck his weapon constantly.

So, if we've got this rule, what are some good ways around it that people have used? I think there's a luck feat that lets you turn natural 1s into natural 20s, but he's low on feats. Other options?

JaronK

[Lord_Gareth]

So, I'm currently playing in a really fun game, but the DM likes critical fumbles for... everything. Roll a 1 to hit, and you throw your weapon away or similar. Now, I'm a caster, so this is fine for me... enemies roll their saves, not me. But we've got a melee character rolls three d20s with every attack (shield charger, so hit + trip + knockback), which means he's liable to chuck his weapon constantly.

So, if we've got this rule, what are some good ways around it that people have used? I think there's a luck feat that lets you turn natural 1s into natural 20s, but he's low on feats. Other options?

JaronK

Well, there's the ever-popular "Talk to your DM about how unfair and annoying this is," as well as the famous, "Find a better DM." Another option might be finding a way to get the weapon back to the melee guy's hands, though I'm not entirely certain how you could do so. Returning property, maybe?

[Carth]

Make it so you need to confirm the fumble, exactly like you need to confirm a critical hit. If you roll a 1, roll again, and if the second roll misses the target's AC, it's a critical fumble. I too hate fumble rolls, but the group I play with loves them, we've found this to be an acceptable compromise. If you need to confirm crits, you should need to confirm fumbles. Otherwise every time you gain an additional iterative attack your odds of being stupid go up way too much.

[Krobar]

Simple solution to avoid throwing your weapon away? Assuming it's not two-handed... A cord lanyard looped around the wrist run through a lanyard hole in the handle would probably suffice, and would be dirt cheap.

Edited... That should work with a 2-handed weapon too, actually... Just loop it around one wrist.

Maybe include a slip knot so you can cinch it up.

This is what I do in real life with a couple of my bigger knives when I'm chopping stuff with them. It works.

[Lord_Gareth]

Simple solution to avoid throwing your weapon away? Assuming it's not two-handed... A cord lanyard looped around the wrist run through a lanyard hole in the handle would probably suffice, and would be dirt cheap.

Edited... That should work with a 2-handed weapon too, actually... Just loop it around one wrist.

Maybe include a slip knot so you can cinch it up.

Different option that exists in the game already - locked gauntlet(s).

[Agent 451]

So, if we've got this rule, what are some good ways around it that people have used? I think there's a luck feat that lets you turn natural 1s into natural 20s, but he's low on feats. Other options?

Do you use action points in your games at all? Granted, they're not a complete solution, but they might be of some help trying to negate the crit fumbles.

[Deophaun]

The Lightning Recovery maneuver allows you to re-roll an attack. Tough to get if you aren't a Warblade, though (prereqs are rather high).

Personally, I'm fond of illustrating how my sword flies out of my hand by chucking the PHB at the DM and screaming "IS THAT HOW IT HAPPENS, $%^&$!" By then, I've had a few, the session gets hazy, and I wind up naked in a jail cell. Ah, fun times.

[Alienist]

Upgrade to Druid, it'll improve his usefulness in combat, and it's hard to throw your own hands away.*

*But not impossible, this is 3.5 after all.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Different option that exists in the game already - locked gauntlet(s).

I'll echo this sentiment. Have your melee character use locked gauntlets and always carry his primary weapons around with him once you leave anywhere important. That way he can't drop weapons.

It will also be a pain in the ass when he needs to switch weapons, but at least he won't be chasing them all over the battlefield.

[Eugenides]

Upgrade to Druid, it'll improve his usefulness in combat, and it's hard to throw your own hands away.*

*But not impossible, this is 3.5 after all.

Mind if I sig this? I just had an uncontrollable laughing fit

[SaintRidley]

You could throw your book at the DM. "Oops, I just fumbled on opening it. Sorry about that."

[JaronK]

Let's assume for the moment I have no desire to chuck anything at my DM, but that his house rule is not negotiable at this time (I mentioned my displeasure, but he's otherwise a lot of fun to play with. He loves his crit fumbles, though).

I thought of the locked gauntlet, but he's going to have other penalties instead if I do that (such as hitting nearby allies and such). And he loves this character, so no rebuilds. The easiest thing would be to figure out a way to never roll 1s.

He's not a Warblade though... no dice there.

JaronK

[Carth]

Planar touchstone, catalogs of enlightenment, luck domain? An amulet of second chances and mantle of second chances are also helpful.

[ahenobarbi]

Lessre crystal of return (MiC)?

[Krazzman]

Lessre crystal of return (MiC)?

Seconding this. He can even upgrade this one further.

[Sayren-Hai]

In the game we play we always play the rule of if you roll a 1, you roll a DC10 (or 15 depending on cicumstances) Dexterity check to hold your weapon. We also play the rule of if you have reach, you drop your weapon in the 5 ft square next to the target.

E.G My fighter was using greatreach bracers to make a 5ft step and then full attack something 15ft away, I rolled 1 followed by another 1 and dropped my greataxe, I dropped it 15ft away, where the target is.

[MukkTB]

I think we need to hombrew a critical hit / fumble table that is acceptable for general use. People always complain about them but that's not because the're terrible. Its because the bonuses and penalties in most homebrew charts are way too powerful.

Little things like -1 to your next hit or nick yourself on your own blade for 1 damage would be workable. On the critical hit side enemies that get critted could take small penalties. Things like -1 on diplomacy until wounds heal or 5GP worth of damage to equipment.

[nedz]

Quickdraw, and lots of spare weapons.

Improved Unarmed Attack, for when everyone is knee-deep in the weapons you have already discarded.

[ahenobarbi]

Things like -1 on diplomacy until wounds heal or 5GP worth of damage to equipment.

Problem with examples you gave is that they only work against PCs.

[MukkTB]

It wouldn't be hard to mix things in that penalize monsters and pcs equaly. Just pick things that have immediate repercussions.

[Alienist]

I think we need to hombrew a critical hit / fumble table that is acceptable for general use. People always complain about them but that's not because the're terrible. Its because the bonuses and penalties in most homebrew charts are way too powerful.

No. They genuinely are bad.

Here's the problem: Level 1 fighter - 1 attack per round. Level 16 fighter - 4 attacks per round.

The higher level fighter is 4x as likely to fumble as the level 0 commoner???

Again at higher levels you get the problem that a sufficiently twinked out fighter is never going to miss, they're just going to fumble instead.

However, it doesn't mean they can't be fun, and in this case it sounds like the DM is using it as an outlet to be creative. Given that, I'd simply suggest not worrying about it. Let the DM have his fun.

[hewhosaysfish]

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

Run a combat of 10 level 1 Warriors against 10 straw dummies (Medium inanimate object, AC 5). For 2 minutes (20 rounds) each Warrior makes 1 attack per round against the dummies; the dummies do not attack back.
If (at the end of 20 rounds) any of the Warriors are dead or dying then the DM must butter his fumble rules and eat them.

[GreenSerpent]

Do the old fashioned thing.

A party of level 1 fighters and a party of level 20 fighters, each with roughly the same equipment (2h sword, heaviest affordable armour, etc etc allowing for improvements from WBL) hacking away at dummies (AC 5) for ten minutes.

If by the end of the 10 minutes the level 20 fighters are more injured/dead/lost more weapons than the level 1 fighters the DM must eat his fumble rules. Without sauce.

[Person_Man]

Having a reroll handy would reduce the chance of a critical hit from 5% to 0.25%. Carth started a good list. You could also consider the Luck Blade, the Luck Feats from Complete Scoundrel (which mostly suck, but Better Lucky Than Good Feat allows you to expend one luck reroll as a swift action to treat a natural 1 on an attack roll as if it were a natural 20), the Doomwarding weapon enhancement from Player's Guide to Faerun (only 7 charges and is expensive, so you'd only want to do it if there was an Artificer in the party), and a bunch of PrC options.

[hydraa]

I was just wondering about using something like this as a technique to determine a critical fumble.

Make the roll a DC25 minus current BAB (as adjusted by power attack or other adjusters) and added in the approriate stat bonus for the attack being fumble (STR or DEX). This will give the full BAB class that probably seriously train on weapons a better chance of not dropping it where the wimpy wizard that thinks he can wield a deadly dagger with precision may not hold on to it at all.


Might need to be tweeked a bit to handle level 1 to level 60.

Also this will cause more of the fumbles for low level characters but reduce them for those characters that have had a little experience out there

[Drackstin]

the best solution i see for that is to what my DM dose, we use the fumble chart, if you roll a 1, you then roll a % and see what the drawback is, the chart is 1-100 but only has about 40 different things that could go wrong, such as twist ankle half move, drop weapon, immobilize left or right hand, most being alot easier to deal with then, you threw your weapon over there, and some do have saving throws. but it also has, you killed yourself, that's the fun of it lol. we also use the crit chart, nothing like opening a fight with a crit and watching a bosses head roll off

[RagnaroksChosen]

Jarnok,

I don't believe there is a way to prevent a 1 on an attack roll. TOB aside. With out luck feats/pool/what not.

My recommendations:
1. Suggest to your DM about making a rule for Confirming fumbles. Because you don't always crit when you roll a 20 same should be for 1's. (that's how we run it at our table, mainly because my players wanted fumbles)
2. Isn't there a zero level spell that lets you glue stuff... I think it has a duration too.. Maybe glue the weapon to his hand?
3. Are there any ways to give him a Mindblade esc ability so when he throws his weapons they just dissipate? or return to him or something along those lines.

[only1doug]

Jarnok,

I don't believe there is a way to prevent a 1 on an attack roll. TOB aside. With out luck feats/pool/what not.

My recommendations:
1. Suggest to your DM about making a rule for Confirming fumbles. Because you don't always crit when you roll a 20 same should be for 1's. (that's how we run it at our table, mainly because my players wanted fumbles)
2. Isn't there a zero level spell that lets you glue stuff... I think it has a duration too.. Maybe glue the weapon to his hand?
3. Are there any ways to give him a Mindblade esc ability so when he throws his weapons they just dissipate? or return to him or something along those lines.

Let's assume for the moment I have no desire to chuck anything at my DM, but that his house rule is not negotiable at this time (I mentioned my displeasure, but he's otherwise a lot of fun to play with. He loves his crit fumbles, though).

I thought of the locked gauntlet, but he's going to have other penalties instead if I do that (such as hitting nearby allies and such). And he loves this character, so no rebuilds. The easiest thing would be to figure out a way to never roll 1s.

He's not a Warblade though... no dice there.

JaronK

Unfortunately JaronK is looking for ways to avoid the 1 on the attack roll as he feels that his GM will be inflexable about changing the operation of his Crit Hit system and that if the inconvenience of dropping the weapon is negated in some way the GM will come up with a worse Fumble interpretation instead.

Potentially something like this:

GM: your weapon flies from your hand.
P1: it can't due to: (sovereign glue, locked gauntlet, mindblade etc.)
GM: Oh, Ok, in that case you hit yourself / an ally, roll damage...

[Person_Man]

I was just wondering about using something like this as a technique to determine a critical fumble.

Make the roll a DC25 minus current BAB (as adjusted by power attack or other adjusters) and added in the approriate stat bonus for the attack being fumble (STR or DEX). This will give the full BAB class that probably seriously train on weapons a better chance of not dropping it where the wimpy wizard that thinks he can wield a deadly dagger with precision may not hold on to it at all.


Might need to be tweeked a bit to handle level 1 to level 60.

Also this will cause more of the fumbles for low level characters but reduce them for those characters that have had a little experience out there

I would strongly suggest that you not use any form of critical fumble rules. They are not in any published 3.5 rule set, and that's for a good reason. While it's a fun concept, it punishes players who roll multiple attacks per round. It also has the effect of weakening low Tier melee characters (especially the Ranger and Rogue), and strengthening high Tier non-melee characters (especially Tier 1-2 casters) who don't rely on any attack rolls.

[Ashtagon]

If you absolutely must have a critical fumble rule, it should only be checked against the first attack a character makes each round, never against iteratives, and never with secondary weapons.

If secondary attacks can trigger fumbles, I wanna fight hydras