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Thread: Defense against implosion
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2012-01-11, 02:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Defense against implosion
So now that we now Redcloak can cast implosion, how does the OOTS keep from being slaughtered in one round? What tactical options are there?
As a starter, I'm thinking along the following lines ...
1) Implosion has a range of 25 feet, so engage redcloak from > 25 feet away. Redcloak uses protection from arrows, but Haley's magical bow can probably overcome that.
2) Vaarsuvius uses counterspell. Problem: Implosion is level 9 and Vaarsuvius can't cast level 9. Can Vaarsuvius counter implosion? Assuming Vaarsuvius rejoins the party?
3) Decoys. Have Elan create multiple illusions. If Redcloak can be tricked into wasting spell slots on illusions, that's less damage for the party to take. Come to think of it, this works against disintegration too.
4) Fortitude-boosting items and feats such as Great Fortitude. How high does fortitude have to be in order to make a fortitude save vs. implosion 4 times in a row? Does Roy have that ability? Could he simply absorb the attack, causing Redcloak to waste his spell and a round?
5) Fizzle. If something can disrupt Redcloak's spellcasting, such as constant melee attacks, Redcloak will lose most of his arsenal. Roy or Belkar could do this if they can get in range. Perhaps use invisibility to hide Belkar until he can jump onto Redcloak? But won't Redcloak have true seeing to stop this?
6) Anti-magic field. The problem with this is that it negates Durkon and Vaarsuvius as well. Also, the Crimson Mantle may be able to defeat the anti-magic field. Notice that in Start of Darkness Redcloak was able to continue to function magically in a similar magic-suppressing environment.
Am I missing anything? How else could this be done?
Corrollary question: Is it likely that Redcloak will use implosion against high-level adventurers? Or is it best used as crowd control against low-level creatures with horrible saves?
Respectfully,
Brian P.
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2012-01-11, 02:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Defense against implosion
Ohh ohhh! Elan sings a specially written song, giving everybody awesome plotsaves.
Really, I don't see Rich just TPK-ing the order, especially Elan. They'll make their saves, or Redcloak will just not use implosion due to being level drained.
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2012-01-11, 02:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Defense against implosion
7) Make sure he gets it's not in his best interest to even engage you.
8) Make sure you are not facing him.
The best fight is the one you can evade. And all of the above means the Order already know about this specific danger (well, if they are smart and cautious they assume Redcloak was level 17+ and plan with that from the start).
If the order faces Team Evil or a part of Team Evil in an open fight it's probably going to end badly anyway for them.
Of your options, the only real choice seems to be 5).
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2012-01-11, 02:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Defense against implosion
Regrettably, the OOTS are classic heroes in that they insist on taking on the hard challenges themselves. Unlike Tarquin, who is intelligent enough to hang back and let other people do the hard work, then tackle the protagonists when they are exhausted, the OOTS looks like they will "heroically" crawl through Durkon's dungeon, then get caught in a three-way battle with Tarquin and Redcloak.
Which means it's very likely they will directly engage Redcloak. Because it's Roy, Mr. "I jump on the back of dragons" leading the party, not Haley.
Respectfully,
Brian P.
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2012-01-11, 03:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Defense against implosion
Well, this all assumes that the Order knows Redcloak has this spell, but...
Well, for one, just have Roy and Belkar be the only ones who get close enough for him to use it. Their fortitude saves are probably high enough to withstand it, and he can only even try it once on each.
That'd work too.
Vaarsuvius can't directly counterspell it regardless, since Implosion is a cleric-only spell. She could try to counterspell with Greater Dispel Magic and rely on a good dispel roll, or Durkon could try to counterspell it regularly if he reaches level 17 before the next time they face off.
Might or might not be feasible. Elan's hardly perfect at creating believable illusions, and I'd bet Redcloak can easily make his will save to disbelieve them if anything at all is off about them.
You don't need to save against implosion four times in a row - the spell specifies that it can only target an individual creature once per casting. One save per character will do it. As I said above, I'd wager that Roy and Belkar can make their saves pretty easily - their classes give them great fortitude saves already, and they both likely have good constitution on top of that. No need to waste a feat on something as minor as Great Fortitude.
Unless Redcloak has skimped on his cocentration skill, that's unlikely to work at his level. Maybe Roy could deal enough damage in a single strike to disrupt his concentration, but that's still just a maybe.
One, spoiler the SoD reference. Two,
SpoilerNo, that's not what happened there. It was a virus that caused Xykon to lose his magic in that incident, and the Crimson Mantle renders Redcloak immune to diseases, so he never lost his magic. We have no reason to believe it also defeats Anti-Magic Field, though I suppose we can't totally rule it out given how little we know about the extent of the Mantle's abilities.
Anyway though, this would likely work in general. Have Durkon be the one to cast it and keep Vaarsuvius well outside the range of the spell, preferably dealing with some other theat entirely, and you're good.
It actually strikes me more as most useful against high-level arcane spellcasters with terrible fortitude saves, or mid-level opponents that could be a threat but don't yet have good enough saves to deal with it. Against low-level creatures, you're better off with more traditional, larger-scale crowd control methods, like Flamestrike, or Mass Inflict <X> Wounds.
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"When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." -C.S. Lewis
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2012-01-11, 03:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Defense against implosion
If V has Improved Counterspell, can't s/he use any 9th-level evocation to counter it? (If s/he reaches 17th level, of course.)
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2012-01-11, 03:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Defense against implosion
That *might* happen for the final gate but it will not be that far for this one here (and it seems Team Evil is about to leave the city).
An awesome idea to evade getting imploded: The Order lets the Linear Guild get imploded until Redcloak runs out of Implosions.Last edited by Ancalagon; 2012-01-11 at 03:11 PM.
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2012-01-11, 03:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Defense against implosion
It's also vulnerable to Spell Resistance, so casting that might help as well.
"They couldn't know that the points from the mainline to the siding were frozen, and the signal should have been set at 'DANGER', but snow had forced it down."
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2012-01-11, 03:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Defense against implosion
Last edited by Sky_Schemer; 2012-01-11 at 03:38 PM.
If you can read this you are too close.
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2012-01-11, 03:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Defense against implosion
Or, you could take a page out of O-chul's book and remove his holy symbol. Redcloak might put a backup one in his pocket due to lessons learned from said O-chul, but he may be too busy trying to make sure you don't run away with Xykon's phylactery to get it out.
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2012-01-11, 03:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Defense against implosion
[nitpick]Protection from Arrows is a Sor/Wiz only spell[/nitpick]
Implosion isn't the real issue here. Sure, it's a pretty powerful spell, but Redcloak is probably only a few levels higher than the OotS team (since Durkon has to be at least level 13 to be able to cast holy word) and half of the OotS team (Roy, Durkon and Belkar) have good Fortitude saves.
The real issue is that Redcloak can cast miracle. I'm worried about how he'll be using that spell.
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2012-01-11, 03:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Defense against implosion
I doubt that redcloak would prepare implosion every day. I think he only prepared implosion this day because he planned on attacking the resistance which are all mid-level with mid to low fortitude saves.
If he knew he would be battling high level characters he would prepare energy drain if Xykon is not along or miracle. One energy drain pretty much disables V or Drukon and a Miracle casted by Redcloak would have full plot powers plus copying any 7th level wizard spell is a very nice bonus.Last edited by hoff; 2012-01-11 at 03:57 PM.
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2012-01-11, 03:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Defense against implosion
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spellTurning.htm
Spell Turning would do it in a fairly messy way.
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2012-01-11, 04:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Defense against implosion
[QUOTE=NeoSeraphi;12513891][nitpick]Protection from Arrows is a Sor/Wiz only spell[/nitpick]
Maybe so but note that in the current strip an archer fired at Redcloak, and the arrow was deflected. It may not be protection from arrows, but Redcloak has some kind of protection against mundane missile attack.
Respectfully,
Brian P.
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2012-01-11, 04:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Defense against implosion
Implosion doesn't require a holy symbol.
It's a domain spell for him. His only alternative to it is Summon Monster IX, limited to lawful creatures. Given the choice between Implosion and Summon Monster IX (which almost might as well be Summon Barbed Devil with the alignment limitation), I'd go with Implosion regardless of expected opponent level. Anyone high enough level to reliably make the save is also high enough level to not consider a Barbed Devil to be a serious threat.Like 4X (aka Civilization-like) gaming? Know programming? Interested in game development? Take a look.
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2012-01-11, 04:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Defense against implosion
Couldn't Durkon counter with a Masked Depth Gourd?
Death Ward blocks "all death spells and magical death effects," and I am pretty sure implosion qualifies. If Durkon gets his spell straightened out, he will almost certainly cast it at the start of an encounter vs. team evil. The only problem would be dispelling, which team evil seems fond of.Pale Master avatar by myself.
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2012-01-11, 04:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Defense against implosion
Like 4X (aka Civilization-like) gaming? Know programming? Interested in game development? Take a look.
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2012-01-11, 06:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Defense against implosion
Most likely, that's Shield of Faith. It's a first-level spell that provides a +2 to +5 (level-dependent, Redcloak would be getting +4 at his level) deflection bonus to AC. Clerics don't actually get anything that provides certain protection against arrows, they most just get a lot of buffs that can raise their stats in various ways.
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"When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." -C.S. Lewis
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2012-01-11, 06:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Defense against implosion
Here's the range listing I see in d20srd.
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
2) Vaarsuvius uses counterspell. Problem: Implosion is level 9 and Vaarsuvius can't cast level 9. Can Vaarsuvius counter implosion? Assuming Vaarsuvius rejoins the party?
3) Decoys. Have Elan create multiple illusions. If Redcloak can be tricked into wasting spell slots on illusions, that's less damage for the party to take. Come to think of it, this works against disintegration too.
4) Fortitude-boosting items and feats such as Great Fortitude. How high does fortitude have to be in order to make a fortitude save vs. implosion 4 times in a row? Does Roy have that ability? Could he simply absorb the attack, causing Redcloak to waste his spell and a round?
5) Fizzle. If something can disrupt Redcloak's spellcasting, such as constant melee attacks, Redcloak will lose most of his arsenal. Roy or Belkar could do this if they can get in range. Perhaps use invisibility to hide Belkar until he can jump onto Redcloak? But won't Redcloak have true seeing to stop this?
6) Anti-magic field. The problem with this is that it negates Durkon and Vaarsuvius as well. Also, the Crimson Mantle may be able to defeat the anti-magic field. Notice that in Start of Darkness Redcloak was able to continue to function magically in a similar magic-suppressing environment.
Corrollary question: Is it likely that Redcloak will use implosion against high-level adventurers? Or is it best used as crowd control against low-level creatures with horrible saves?Last edited by Morthis; 2012-01-11 at 06:42 PM.
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2012-01-11, 07:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Defense against implosion
"None of us likes to be hated, none of us likes to be shunned. A natural result of these conditions is, that we consciously or unconsciously pay more attention to tuning our opinions to our neighbor’s pitch and preserving his approval than we do to examining the opinions searchingly and seeing to it that they are right and sound." - Mark Twain
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2012-01-11, 07:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Defense against implosion
I'm sorry, but I'm a 4e player and don't know much about 3.5e magic.
Couldn't Redcloak cast 9th level spells like Implosion at 9th level?
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2012-01-11, 07:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Defense against implosion
No.
Table. Observe.
4ed is really nothing like 3.xed. I mean, 3.xed isn't much like 2ed, and is less like 1ed...but 3.5ed to 4ed is really a bigger change than the change all the way from D&D-no-A to 3.5ed.Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2012-01-11, 08:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-01-11, 09:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Defense against implosion
+5 feet every 2 levels. So Redcloak can cast it from at least 65 feet away.
2) Vaarsuvius uses counterspell. Problem: Implosion is level 9 and Vaarsuvius can't cast level 9. Can Vaarsuvius counter implosion? Assuming Vaarsuvius rejoins the party?
3) Decoys. Have Elan create multiple illusions. If Redcloak can be tricked into wasting spell slots on illusions, that's less damage for the party to take. Come to think of it, this works against disintegration too.
4) Fortitude-boosting items and feats such as Great Fortitude. How high does fortitude have to be in order to make a fortitude save vs. implosion 4 times in a row? Does Roy have that ability? Could he simply absorb the attack, causing Redcloak to waste his spell and a round?
5) Fizzle. If something can disrupt Redcloak's spellcasting, such as constant melee attacks, Redcloak will lose most of his arsenal. Roy or Belkar could do this if they can get in range. Perhaps use invisibility to hide Belkar until he can jump onto Redcloak? But won't Redcloak have true seeing to stop this?
6) Anti-magic field. The problem with this is that it negates Durkon and Vaarsuvius as well. Also, the Crimson Mantle may be able to defeat the anti-magic field. Notice that in Start of Darkness Redcloak was able to continue to function magically in a similar magic-suppressing environment.Last edited by Blisstake; 2012-01-11 at 09:11 PM.
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2012-01-13, 07:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Defense against implosion
Improve your saving throws, but in the end its like that duel between Redcloak and the late high priest of the twelve gods, roll high or die.
Last too panels and that implosion "special effect" make me wonder if Rich has been playing DDO ... hope he is in Argonessen server!
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2012-01-13, 09:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-01-13, 12:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Defense against implosion
Well, I think that if the hated Redcloak tries to use Implosion, it would be against Roy, since he is a "Charge towards the enemy" man. He would surely pass his first saving throw, and then use his nice "Dispel Strike" then his "Behead-Gobbo" attack and finally his "Avenge the Team Peregrine, every paladin, every Azurite and Every Human".
Seriously, when you have seen how Redcloak kills the Peregrine, is still anybody here rooting for him?
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2012-01-13, 12:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Defense against implosion
...I never was rooting for Redcloak to complete the Plan, though every time you post I become more likely to do so, I'd be thrilled if he reformed and had a happy ending, and I'm very glad to say your expressed wishes for him to be tortured to death and the series to end with a reinforcement of "goblins are XP fodder and should never be anything more" are even less likely to be realized than Redcloak outright winning, but "killing Team Peregrine" isn't even a blip on the radar.
Seriously, your concluding question doesn't even mention the actually innocent and sympathetic people in the Resistance, just the led-by-a-horrible-racist-and-none-of-the-others-have-shown-personalities Team Peregrine. I will never understand you.Last edited by Kish; 2012-01-13 at 09:41 PM.
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2012-01-13, 01:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Defense against implosion
Since nobody else has mentioned it, Implosion explicitly doesn't work on creatures in gaseous form. That wouldn't help the weapon-users in the party much, since it'd also shut down their attacks, but it might be a good idea for V, if e has stilled, silent spells or ongoing emanations.
Another option is a Silence spell cast on one of the melee guys, to prevent spellcasting with verbal components. There are ways around that, of course, but it's difficult to cast a ninth-level spell silently. The main drawback, of course, is that it'd mean we'd miss out on the inevitable wisecracks.
An anti-magic field is probably still the best bet, though, cast by either Durkon or by Haley or Elan (via UMDing a scroll). If they were just up against Redcloak, it might be debatable, but they've got two or three seriously powerful spellcasters they need to deal with. Yeah, Xykon (being epic) would be able to deal with it, but it'd still hamper him more than just about anything else the party can pull.Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
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2012-01-13, 01:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Defense against implosion
Yeah, pretty much what Kish said. Killing Team Peregrine hasn't changed my thoughts on Redcloak at all, and my biggest wish for him is that he has a change of heart by the end, turns on Xykon, and that he somehow gets his wish of greater equality for Goblins among humanoids in a more humane way than he is trying to now. Heck, I hope he gets to keep Gobbotopia even - the remnants of Azure City have a place to settle down now, so there's no purpose to forcing the Goblins out of it, and much to be gained by allowing them to have their own homeland there.
Yeah, one of those ways around it being "walk outside of it on your turn." Without someone with Improved Trip, good grappling talent, or some other way to keep Redcloak in one place, he can just move outside the silence spell's radius before casting on each of his turns and it won't inhibit him one bit.
ZevoxLast edited by Zevox; 2012-01-13 at 01:39 PM.
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"When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." -C.S. Lewis