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Thread: Elemental Envoy is fantastic!
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2019-04-23, 10:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Elemental Envoy is fantastic!
For those of you who don't know, this feat is the psicrystal's version of improved familiar. Basically instead of a psicrystal you get an elemental steward (Complete Psionics p.130) and the elemental steward gives you all the benefits your psicrystal gives.
So why is this feat AWESOME? Because of GEODITES.
1. This feat is obtainable at level 1.
2. Geodites have DR5/- AC17 making them absolutely phenomenal tanks at low levels.
3. Geodites have BURROW SPEED that can BURROW THROUGH STONE. This is why Elemental Envoy is fantastic! It's basically an at-will non-combat disintegrate. You can destroy walls, bypass vast portions of a dungeon (like a trap or a gate that cannot be opened unless you solve a puzzle) or create choke points (by forcing enemies to fight in these small-sized tunnels and which forces them to squeeze) and force the enemies to fight on your terms rather than theirs. You can create a rest area in the dungeon and cut off all entrances by causing a cave-in that can be re-burrowed through.
The reason I'm posting this is because the guides I found online all say this feat is terrible and it's not true. Geodite's combat capability may becomes nonexistant after like level 4 or 5 but the burrow speed should stay relevant for a really, really long time and at level 1 they're a contender for most powerful minion.
During my play test at level 1 the Geodite solo'd entire encounters due to his DR5/- and at later levels I used the burrow speed to attack and retreat like guerillas and when the enemies gave chase into the tunnels the Geodite would block their path with a Tower Shield while I killed everything with matter agitation. For stronger encounters I got creative and spent some time setting up traps in the tunnels that would completely block passage when triggered to secure a retreat. That way I can matter agitation a creature, retreat, and then just sit there concentration for a minute or two to kill the guy who can't stop his death because a giant rock is blocking his path to me.
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2019-04-23, 10:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elemental Envoy is fantastic!
That one EE is good at level 1.
Unfortunately, it doesn't scale, so it's gonna be dead by level 3, and I don't think there's any way to actually replace a dead one.
So if you absolutely need to survive solo at level 1, it's okay, but you're basically burning a feat permanently for a very temporary benefit. Using that feat for a psicrystal is vastly better, since they actually gain some seriously nice abilities (though no tanky ones at level 1), and if you need a tank, you're massively better off obtaining an animal companion via Wild Cohort. Those you can replace.Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2019-04-23 at 10:23 AM.
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2019-04-23, 10:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elemental Envoy is fantastic!
Psionic Handbook's rules for replacing Psicrystals is the default. If you read the description of Elemental Envoy it says "When you are able to acquire a new psicrystal" and "until dismissed or destroyed." which is identical to familiars, which is what the rules in Psionic Handbooks says (except wait time is 6 months not a year and a day).
My claim is that the Burrow Speed stays relevant past level 3. Don't know until when but it's gonna definitely be until mid levels. And you can always retrain or psychic reformation it out once you do hit mid levels.
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2019-04-23, 10:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elemental Envoy is fantastic!
Well, I mean, when you're playing a psion, no feat is ever burnt permanently (once you reach level 7, anyway)
Using that feat for a psicrystal is vastly better,
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2019-04-23, 10:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elemental Envoy is fantastic!
Do they gain HD the way psicrystals do? If so, while the feats and skills may not be any "better" than the psicrystal's own, they might be used to improve on the already-stronger chassis.
Do they have hands? Can you give them weapons? Other than the semi-obvious share pain/vigor combo, are there any psicrystal tricks that work better with a tougher chassis?
Psicrystals don't gain size with HD; do Geodites?
The image of a psicrystal with Claws of the Beast is more comical than threatening; are Geodites better able to use them?
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2019-04-23, 10:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elemental Envoy is fantastic!
According to WotC, if your psicrystal dies, "You get another one," which is less than helpful. And since 3.5 psicrystals are gotten from a feat and not a class feature, you should be able to get another one right away, instead of waiting until after most campaigns end in order to replace it.
If nothing else, using psychic reformation to replace the feat should allow you to get another one right away.
Still, elemental envoys don't actually gain any hp or save bonuses as they gain in levels. Sure, they gain some other abilities that encourage them to get into melee faster, but that just means they're more likely to die nigh immediately as collateral damage.
And psicrystals are still far tougher and vastly more versatile than they are. Now, if the feat allowed a psicrystal to turn into elemental steward forms...Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2019-04-23 at 10:42 AM.
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2019-04-23, 10:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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2019-04-23, 10:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elemental Envoy is fantastic!
They don't gain HD at all, from what I'm reading in CPsi. They gain a Nat Armor bonus, a Cha bonus, and an ML bonus, and that's about it.
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2019-04-23, 10:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elemental Envoy is fantastic!
They also don't have the part of the psicrystal's entry where it states that the psicrystal's hp equal half its master's. Same goes for their saving throws.
I can't really quote something that isn't there. The best I could do is quote all the text in regards to the feat to show there's nothing, or you could read it yourself on CPsi p53. No scaling HD, no hp, no saves.Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2019-04-23 at 10:50 AM.
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2019-04-23, 10:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elemental Envoy is fantastic!
You guys are missing the point! Burrow Speed! How can the ability to destroy dungeon walls at-will not be worth a feat? Screw combat capability! ( though vigor + share pain still works). BURROW SPEED! WALL DESTRUCTION! TUNNEL BYPASS DUNGEON PUZZLES!
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2019-04-23, 10:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elemental Envoy is fantastic!
Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2019-04-23 at 10:52 AM.
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2019-04-23, 10:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elemental Envoy is fantastic!
Time Hop is 3rd level so earliest you get is 5th level, and I'm pretty sure it doesn't work on walls as it is too big, and again, Retraining or Psychic Reformation. I don't think you are fully grasping the utility of Disintegrate since that is what this burrow speed is (doesn't work on wood though).
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2019-04-23, 11:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elemental Envoy is fantastic!
Originally Posted by SRD
I'm not seeing an exception to this in the Geodite entry in CPsi pg131. Did I miss something?
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2019-04-23, 11:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elemental Envoy is fantastic!
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2019-04-23, 11:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elemental Envoy is fantastic!
Even if it does, as a DM I would just adapt. Monsters hear rumors of wandering adventurers who pup up out of the stone from these tiny tunnels, start to keep things like boiling oil for fort defense... Have fun squeezing through a tunnel and having that poured in with you.
If you need me for anything, or I forgot about something, PM me and I'll see it.
Undead- er, undying gratitude to linklele for the avatar.
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2019-04-23, 11:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elemental Envoy is fantastic!
I did read that, but dismissed it as just being part of the fluff. It's in the 'Ecology' heading, which judging from the other Ecology entries in CPsi seems like it usually just describes where and how a given creature lives in the wild, and it's typical size/weight. Is it really rules text describing a creature's ingame mechanical abilities?
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2019-04-23, 11:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elemental Envoy is fantastic!
True but still doesn't stop the PCs from breaking down every wall they come across.
The question is, can Geodites make tunnels? y/n. If y then no reason they can't make tunnels in-game. The important thing to note is that they create spiraling tunnels. I guess you can make a case that making tunnels might take longer than just burrowing through but not only is this difference trivial, but also highly unlikely since we're talking about stone here and not loose dirt.
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2019-04-23, 11:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elemental Envoy is fantastic!
So the feat changes the advancement rules from what is printed for psicrystals, then? There's clear lack of inheritance of the psicrystal HD advancement?
Again, not arguing, just trying to answer your question about what you can tell me to clarify. I'm AFB right now and can't get access to C.Psi until tonight.
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2019-04-23, 11:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elemental Envoy is fantastic!
Searching the SRD, I find the following entries of burrowing monsters that leave usable tunnels (there might be more, it was a relatively quick search):
A burrowing ankheg usually does not make a usable tunnel, but can construct a tunnel; it burrows at half speed when it does so.A frost worn cannot burrow through stone, but can manage ice and frozen earth. When moving through such hard materials it leaves behind a usable tunnel about 5 feet in diameter.A dire badger usually leaves behind a usable tunnel 5 feet in diameter when burrowing unless the material it’s moving through is very loose.Geodites dwell together in small communities. They get along well with most other earth elemental creatures. They enjoy creating complex dwellings of spiraling tunnels with long galleries, great hollows, and small, doorless nodes in the earth.If you need me for anything, or I forgot about something, PM me and I'll see it.
Undead- er, undying gratitude to linklele for the avatar.
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2019-04-23, 11:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elemental Envoy is fantastic!
Yes, there's clear lack of inheritance. It gains no HP, and no HD. Aside from Nat Armor, Cha, and ML adjustments, and some listed abilities similar to those found in the psicrystal's advancement chart (share power, deliver touch powers, etc), it doesn't advance in anything. It's just stuck at the geodite's stablock for stats/abilities. Here's the relevant section:
Originally Posted by CPsi pg 53
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2019-04-23, 11:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elemental Envoy is fantastic!
Like I said the important thing to note here is whether they can destroy stone walls or not. Ability to burrow through stone via shaped sonic Blasts and ability to create tunnels definitely say yes. The most the DM can do is say Geodites can't make usable tunnels in combat. But this is highly sketchy because we're talking about stone not dirt and their burrow method is shaped sonic blasts aka EXPLOSIONS. But again this is a trivial difference because I'm not saying the Geodite's burrow is for combat purposes. I repeat it's for out of combat utility like breaking down walls and tunneling under magically enchanted trapped giant metal gates.
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2019-04-23, 11:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elemental Envoy is fantastic!
Last edited by Blue Jay; 2019-04-23 at 11:34 AM.
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2019-04-23, 11:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elemental Envoy is fantastic!
Well, reading the entry, these "shaped sonic bursts" are never actually stated to leave behind tunnels or destroy anything, and to put an even finer point on it, nowhere does the stat block or ability list mention anything about destroying stone, creating tunnels, or leaving behind tunnels. All we get is one reference to burrowing by sonic blasts (which doesn't specify it leaves a tunnel, or even destroys the stone), and the ecology section describing the homes they like to make. Dwarves like to live in and create giant halls of stone too... do they have some innate explosive psionic ability not listed in the PHB?
EDIT: I mean, if we refer only to the ability to destroy stone, even Human commoners can do that...Last edited by The Kool; 2019-04-23 at 11:37 AM.
If you need me for anything, or I forgot about something, PM me and I'll see it.
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2019-04-23, 11:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elemental Envoy is fantastic!
At the very least, it seems like there's leeway for a DM to rule either way on tunnel-creation via burrowing.
If it doesn't advance HD, the psicrystal rapidly becomes a stronger monster, I think.
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2019-04-23, 11:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elemental Envoy is fantastic!
This isn't earth glide so if the Geodite burrows through a stone wall it's gonna decimate it. Xorns for example have a Burrow Speed but it's explicitly mentioned to not leave a tunnel because it is an earth glide. Frost Worms on the other hand do leave a tunnel because they don't have an Earth Glide.
So if you're saying a Geodite burrowing through stone with sonic explosions doesn't leave a tunnel, then this non-tunnel is gonna be made up of broken rock bits that can easily be shoveled out. Again, being able to create tunnels in-combat is not a factor. Who cares if a 50ft tunnel takes 10minutes to dig out?
At which point you retrain out when you want the psicrystal's combat capability or you no longer need burrow speed.Last edited by RoboEmperor; 2019-04-23 at 11:53 AM.
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2019-04-23, 11:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elemental Envoy is fantastic!
Then why bother spending a feat? Just grab some shovels and pickaxes.
No, seriously. Try this with your DM. If you can spend 10 minutes on something, you can probably spend an hour, or arrange circumstances so that you have many hours, or even days to work. Stone will take a while, but mundane equipment will go right through it.If you need me for anything, or I forgot about something, PM me and I'll see it.
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2019-04-23, 11:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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2019-04-23, 11:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elemental Envoy is fantastic!
Which is why you read the creature description for elaboration. Burrow speed doesn't come attached with the explicit ability to burrow through stone.
One of my DM's family members runs a small mining operation creating asphalt and he didn't doubt for a second that shaped explosions did leave a tunnel.Last edited by RoboEmperor; 2019-04-23 at 12:01 PM.
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2019-04-23, 12:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elemental Envoy is fantastic!
⚣ Tanuki in the Playground. ⚣
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2019-04-23, 12:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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