Do You Get Upset When Other Players Want To Play A Tier 1 Class?

[Bartmanhomer]

I know that so many people have mixed opinions about it, so I'm asking you do you get upset when other players want to play a Tier 1 Class? (Wizard, Cleric and Druid.)

[ColorBlindNinja]

No, never.

I will at best warn them that tier 1 classes are extremely complicated and can be difficult to play, but it doesn't bother me in the least.

If the player is inexperienced, I'll try to help them play their class in a manner that's effective.

[Bartmanhomer]

No, never.

I will at best warn them that tier 1 classes are extremely complicated and can be difficult to play, but it doesn't bother me in the least.

If the player is inexperienced, I'll try to help them play their class in a manner that's effective.

Ok. I know that the tier 1 character are always the stars in the game. And they basically do just about every thing and sometimes they "showboat" their abilities a bit too much which makes the other players upset thinking that tier 1 classes is better than all other classes that's not tier 1.

[Malphegor]

Never, but I dived headfirst on my first character straight into wizard (and as a result find lower tier martial classes incomprehensible to learn how to play for a good while, aka the ‘oh BAB is actually used for something!’ surprise)

Clerics and druids and such can easily be amazing... And they tend to not overshadow martials imo because it’s usually in their interest to buff the meaty boiiis at low levels, and at high levels it’s generally good to have a party of people with different abilities just to cover your bases.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Ok. I know that the tier 1 character are always the stars in the game. And they basically do just about every thing and sometimes they "showboat" their abilities a bit too much which makes the other players upset thinking that tier 1 classes is better than all other classes that's not tier 1.

That can happen, but it's unlikely to if the player doesn't know what they're doing.

I also tend to ensure, as much as possible, that all the PCs are roughly the same level of power.

[nighteyes95]

For me it depends entirely on if I expect them to act as part of the team or as the only important person I've played with both

when they are a part of the team it's really fun and can help the party overcome things

but when they act like they're the only important person it ends up making other players do that as well in my experience making things more difficult than it has to be

[DeTess]

Not really. It's annoying when one person is being that 'that guy' by being a highly optimized wizard or codzilla in a party consisting of low-op rangers and monks, but that's not really related to someone playing a tier 1 class, and more to do with someone forcing a large power disparity (as you could play a tier 1 in a less optimized group perfectly well without ruffling feathers).

[ColorBlindNinja]

If the OP meant as a player and not as a DM, my answer is still no.

If the rest of the party is playing higher powered characters, I'll just play a more powerful character.

I also don't really care much if someone else in the party is flat-out better than my PC is.

[Karl Aegis]

It's really easy to play a Tier 3 character as a Tier 1 class. As long as you don't purposely go out of your way to abuse your abilities you are fine.

[Rynjin]

Ok. I know that the tier 1 character are always the stars in the game. And they basically do just about every thing and sometimes they "showboat" their abilities a bit too much which makes the other players upset thinking that tier 1 classes is better than all other classes that's not tier 1.

This isn't quite cut and dried.

Tiers aren't really a measure of absolute power, they're more about POTENTIAL. So a Tier 1 character CAN break the game, or showboat, but they don't necessarily have to, and most players can't really make them do so.

A low-mid optimized Wizard might have an edge in that any definciencies in build can be corrected by simply throwing more gold at the problem, but they can generally play nice in a mixed party of any kind, though players that generally play low-mid op Tier 4/5 characters (Fighter, Rogue, Monk, etc.) might find them OP anyway.

I don't, and I don't think most people do, get mad at people for choosing a T1 class; they get mad when somebody picks a T1 class and purposefully tries to disrupt the table balance.

[ColorBlindNinja]

It's really easy to play a Tier 3 character as a Tier 1 class. As long as you don't purposely go out of your way to abuse your abilities you are fine.

Did you mean the other way around? It's easy to play a tier 1 class as a tier 3 one?

[ericgrau]

Definitely not. Groups I've played in are too casual to optimize "T1" that much. And those are the veterans. Rookies actually struggle to do well with them, since they're complicated. For the veterans that complication is necessary to keep the game fun. Limiting 3.5's complication when that's it's main fun feature is a horrible, horrible thing to do. Banning NI loops, limiting things like abrupt jaunt, and so on I can see. Or, 95% of the time, playing with players who don't even consider such things in the first place because they rightly see them as dumb and not merely "playing the class well". But frowning upon several classes and saying, "Hey, why are you playing that."? That's awful. Let people play what they want. At least the classes they want, even if you avoid some tricks.

I've accidentally gone overboard with sorcerers and with fighters, with basic optimization and without resorting to any popular forum splatbook tricks. I may try a thiefy or gishy class or some such next to challenge myself with something new and to keep my character's power in check. Again, without any internet super tricks. X cool splatbook feat for the concept that's similar in the power to the PHB but can't be done with the PHB, sure. XYZ power creep feats to make a comboriffic trick, no way.

Or in other words, with their limited knowledge 99% of players have to go out of their way and Google a bunch of tips and trips to break the system with "T1". It's not about needing to hold back to avoid breaking anything, it's about needing to go out of your way to break anything. And 95% of players won't even attempt to do that. Those who browse forums may be much more tempted to use what they've read before, but even then I think most don't or aren't active enough online. Or at least this is true for nearly every single person I've met. I remember one single person who was trying to abuse the system with rules that weren't actually legal, and if he had any internet help I think he would have known it wasn't legal. I've heard another talk about such people and how he avoids doing the same even though he knows how. But I haven't met a single such person myself.

[noob]

Did you mean the other way around? It's easy to play a tier 1 class as a tier 3 one?

A tier 3 character is something like bob the wizard/monk/fighter/rogue/cleric who decides to only cast flight and fireball.
A tier 3 class is something like the crusader.
Characters are individuals and classes are stuff a character can pick.
a character that picks only levels in wizard can be tier 3 if it only ever use a very limited set of its options rather than always picking the right options(example bob could take spell mastery for taking only the fly and fireball spells then reduce in small bits its spellbook then dip it into glue to make a hat that he then wears).

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Fear the player more than the class. An optimizer can do more with a prep caster than a monk or the like, but he can do quite a bit with anything. One nice thing about prep casters: They're much less likely to be a one-trick pony. Those are some of the hardest characters to deal with, both as a fellow player and as a GM, because they exist in a binary state of "steamroller" or "do nothing."

As a GM I do worry about balance within the party, but again, fear the player more than the class. If a noob wants to play a cleric while an optimizer wants to make the most of the monk, great! The class disparity will tone down the actual power disparity. If I were GMing a bunch of new players, the only prep caster I'd worry about is a Druid, since it can be overpowered on accident from level 1 onward. You really can't say the same about the other prep casters about until Polymorph comes around.

[Elkad]

I love prepared casters.

Figuring out what spells to prep is a whole mini-game every character day.
Doing it from a restricted list (and figuring how to expand that list) is another mini-game.

The only core class that really fits that is Wizard.
Archivist fits for the divine side.


So since I prefer tier1s myself (even if I limit myself to fit the party (never happens), or go GodMode so they don't notice (happens a lot)), no I'm never upset when someone else does the same. I'll be encouraging the "always a fighter" player to be a sorcadin or duskblade or warblade instead, every time.


As the DM? I encourage my party to balance itself and play towards the upper end, but if they want to play cleric, druid, wizard, archivist, sorcadin and a lone monk, I'll make it work.

[Doctor Awkward]

Ok. I know that the tier 1 character are always the stars in the game. And they basically do just about every thing and sometimes they "showboat" their abilities a bit too much which makes the other players upset thinking that tier 1 classes is better than all other classes that's not tier 1.

This is not a system problem.

This is a player problem.

[ColorBlindNinja]

This is not a system problem.

This is a player problem.

The fact that a Wizard can replace a Fighter with a single spell and that Clerics/Druids are better melee combatants, most certainly is a system problem.

[noob]

This is not a system problem.

This is a player problem.

I agree: there is many ways for a tier one player to solve all the problems while making the other party members believe they did solve the problem.

[Recherché]

Normally I don't get upset at all about it. One time the rest of the party had agreed to keep things tier 3 or below because we felt it fit the setting better and the new person we invited in was insisting on wizard and not a particularly weak build at that. I think we were more upset at him not being willing to go along with the ground rules the rest of us had agreed on than on him wanting to play a tier 1 class per se.

[ericgrau]

The fact that a Wizard can replace a Fighter with a single spell and that Clerics/Druids are better melee combatants, most certainly is a system problem.

If the wizard polymorphs into a wartroll, or even knows that a wartroll exists, that's mostly a player problem. If he polymorphs into a hydra, you'll find it looks nice in theory but most of his many attacks miss, do low damage even when they do hit, and his HP & AC are low. It's a minor problem that the system has 45,000 options and it's impossible to avoid a few of those messing the game up, but that's more of a feature than it is a bug.

[Elkad]

The fact that a Wizard can replace a Fighter with a single spell and that Clerics/Druids are better melee combatants, most certainly is a system problem.

Sure, but even in a game with a single character class, someone in the group is going to be a more-optimized (I started to say better, but in this context it isn't) player and outshine another player. Sometimes grossly.

D&D (and basically every other TTRPG) is a team effort. A good team plays to their own strengths and fills party weaknesses, vs all getting in a competition to be the best at the same job.


Exception: Druid. They outshine a lot of classes completely by accident, especially at low-mid levels. Which means a new player might not even realize he's doing it.

[ColorBlindNinja]

If the wizard polymorphs into a wartroll, or even knows that a wartroll exists, that's mostly a player problem.

Um, no, the fact that doing so is even possible is most definitely a system problem.

If he polymorphs into a hydra, you'll find it looks nice in theory but most of his many attacks miss, do low damage even when they do hit, and his HP & AC are low.

Assuming the Wizard doesn't use other buff spells to make his AC better, raise his STR, ect.

It's a minor problem that the system has 45,000 options and it's impossible to avoid a few of those messing the game up, but that's more of a feature than it is a bug.

Sorry, but being able to cast Planar Binding and forever obsolete the Fighter is a system bug.

[stack]

No, because I mostly avoid playing without spheres of power, so there are no tier 1s.

[ericgrau]

And if a DM bans "T1"s or others shame a player for "T1"s, that's a major DM or player problem. Our group is about to switch systems next campaign purely for the extra options 3.5 has, including caster options. Not one is trying to, has, nor will break the system. Not being allowed to is a huge red flag to start looking for another D&D group.

Sorry, but being able to cast Planar Binding and forever obsolete the Fighter is a system bug.

Quote, describe or link to one game where it happened, with a core monster with equal or higher CR than the party level (and so the fighter's level). And appropriate extraplanar revenge, or avoidance of that revenge, per the spell text.

[Rynjin]

And if a DM bans "T1"s or others shame a player for "T1"s, that's a major DM or player problem. Our group is about to switch systems next campaign purely for the extra options 3.5 has, including caster options. Not one is trying to, has, nor will break the system. Not being allowed to is a huge red flag to start looking for another D&D group.


Quote, describe or link to one game where it happened, with a core monster with equal or higher CR than the party level (and so the fighter's level). And appropriate extraplanar revenge, or avoidance of that revenge, per the spell text.

Not a Fighter, but I needed to ask my Wizard to change his True Name choice in one of my PF games because the Succubus made everybody else's (primarily the Inquisitor) social skill ranks feel pointless.

I could see a mid-op archer Fighter feeling outdone by a bound Erinyes at some CR levels though, if you want a combat example.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Quote, describe or link to one game where it happened, with a core monster with equal or higher CR than the party level (and so the fighter's level). And appropriate extraplanar revenge, or avoidance of that revenge, per the spell text.

Utterly irrelevant, the ability to obsolete the Fighter with the spell still exists and the revenge clause is vague.

It's also hardly the only spell that is capable of making the Fighter cry.

[Pex]

I know that so many people have mixed opinions about it, so I'm asking you do you get upset when other players want to play a Tier 1 Class? (Wizard, Cleric and Druid.)

You ask this like there's something wrong to do so how dare they.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

The core of the issue is the set of abilities and spells that access the monster manuals, such as Planar Binding and its derivatives. Deal with those abilities specifically - which I think we all agree is reasonable - and Wizard & Friends are still quite powerful but not as game-breaking.

I disagree that the choice to avoid/downplay game-breaking options is irrelevant. Gentleman's agreements are one way of dealing with borked mechanics. There's still a problem (waves to Oberoni), but it can be handled without blanket bans.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Depends on what I expect them to do with it.

If I expect they're going to take its power to the extreme and/or beyond the point the GM can handle, yeah, that's a problem in the works. I'll still try to convince them to reel it back to a more reasonable level before getting mad is even a possibility though.

Generally, that's not a concern that comes up though.

Someone once said something to the effect that playing a wizard to its fullest potential takes something like a university minor's worth of study, which I believe is true. I've done that much study in this game and more. I know both how to bring the most out of a T1 and how to challenge that meaningfully and am more than happy to share this knowledge with my GMs at least up through level 16. 9th level spells really do change the game one last time before epic breaks everything.

The thing about playing non-casters is that you know going in that they intrinsically have less ability to direct the course of play unless they just buy the game changing effects that casters gain access to by simply leveling; flight, long-distance teleportation, planar access, etc. There's nothing wrong with playing with a smaller toolbox but it's unreasonable to choose that and then get aggravated at the guy who chose the bigger toolbox.

[Elkad]

Polymorphing himself into a war troll is the less-optimal decision vs polymorphing the fighter into one, in nearly every case.

So, assuming there IS a fighter in the party, that's a player problem.