Optimize or Die, Playgrounders! [E6 Balor Challenge Thread]

[senrath]

4th level spell scrolls don't exist in E6.

Artificers create magic items as though they are 2 levels higher than they really are. Meaning that a 6th level Artificer is creating items that normally requires an 8th level caster. Ie, 4th level spell scrolls. They normally don't exist only because you can't get a wizard/druid/cleric/whatever to a high enough level to make them, but as far as I know there's no rule against getting an artificer to do it for you.

[Ingus]

My way to not get autokilled by blasphemy was act first.
My build was based on questionable use of magic item homebrew rule, but one could even think to go with 4 ToB characters and Belt of Battle and Withe Raven Tactics out the Balor before he can act.

By the way, Blasphemy was the main problem prevented me to Charm him or otherwise brainwash him

[Douglas]

4th level spell scrolls don't exist in E6.

They do if they're made by artificers, who can make them at level 5, and the OP has specifically stated that such things are allowed for this challenge if made by a party member rather than an NPC.

[Hurlbut]

4th level spell scrolls don't exist in E6.

Except when you can create it on your own.

[taltamir]

Artificers create magic items as though they are 2 levels higher than they really are. Meaning that a 6th level Artificer is creating items that normally requires an 8th level caster. Ie, 4th level spell scrolls. They normally don't exist only because you can't get a wizard/druid/cleric/whatever to a high enough level to make them, but as far as I know there's no rule against getting an artificer to do it for you.

thanks for the explanation. I wasn't aware of that particularity.

[dextercorvia]

I am pretty sure silence does not hamper SLA.

Silence doesn't stop the Balor from using it, but it does stop the PC's from hearing it. (I've seen it argued that hearing isn't required for Balor to kill you, but that is silly.)

[Ernir]

I see a rules conflict in Silence vs. Blasphemy.

Silence:

This spell provides a defense against sonic or language-based attacks.

Blasphemy (which carries the [Sonic] descriptor)

This effect takes place regardless of whether the creatures hear the blasphemy.

So... yeah.

It's a really poorly defined case, I think. Silence says it provides "a defense" against sonic attacks, but does not explicitly call out the [Sonic] descriptor, nor does it say what this "defense" is supposed to be. Blasphemy says the target does not need to hear the spell, but does not say whether it overrides magical Silence.

[Another_Poet]

Hi all. I just want to let you know I have not forgotten our brave challengers! Work got super busy. I hope to review the contestants before the weekend is over (though a date on Sunday may bump my giantitp time, in which case I will do it Mon at work ).

[taltamir]

Silence doesn't stop the Balor from using it, but it does stop the PC's from hearing it. (I've seen it argued that hearing isn't required for Balor to kill you, but that is silly.)

only because you assume it is the hearing of the blasphemy that does the damage...
you don't need to hear the wizard chanting to feel the fireball he casts at you... if blasphemy isn't an auditory attack but merely speaking a word of evil con conjure negative energy (in a specific form) then it would work just fine.

I see a rules conflict in Silence vs. Blasphemy.

there is no conflict, the blasphemy description helps confirm that it is NOT a language based attack. Thus, blasphemy is more akin to "circle of death"

it is actually an extremely well defined case, blasphemy explicitly states that not hearing it (via silence) does not stop it, silence explicitly states that it provides defense against things which have nothing to do with blasphemy.

[true_shinken]

My way to not get autokilled by blasphemy was act first.
My build was based on questionable use of magic item homebrew rule, but one could even think to go with 4 ToB characters and Belt of Battle and Withe Raven Tactics out the Balor before he can act.

By the way, Blasphemy was the main problem prevented me to Charm him or otherwise brainwash him

I think a balor could most probably get a surprise round against such a party (with his good senses and teleport) and there is very little you can do to fight that... you are not high level enough to use Celerity, for starters, though characters with uncanny dodge coult potentially use Wings of Cover, I belive.

[Douglas]

though characters with uncanny dodge coult potentially use Wings of Cover, I belive.

Nope. Uncanny Dodge is quite specific about what it gets you - dex to AC when flat-footed. It does not actually make you not flat-footed, so the other drawbacks of that status, including the inability to use immediate actions, remain.

[JeminiZero]

it is actually an extremely well defined case, blasphemy explicitly states that not hearing it (via silence) does not stop it, silence explicitly states that it provides defense against things which have nothing to do with blasphemy.

Actually, I agree with Ernir's assessment. Silence can be ruled to protect against Blasphemy, as it has the [sonic] descriptor, which Silence explicitly says it protects against.

Nowhere in Silence does it say this protection is due to the fact that it prevents the target from hearing the attack (while that is one of the effects of the spell, it is NOT explicitly stated to be the "cause" of protection). And this is likely due to the fact that many sonic attacks besides Blasphemy (like Orb of Sound), work even against creatures that are deaf.

[dextercorvia]

Context is King.

Furthermore, if you are on your home plane when you cast this spell, nonevil extraplanar creatures within the area are instantly banished back to their home planes. Creatures so banished cannot return for at least 24 hours. This effect takes place regardless of whether the creatures hear the blasphemy. The banishment effect allows a Will save (at a -4 penalty) to negate.

The phrase This effect is sandwiched by two sentences referring to the Banishment effect. I think it is clear that the rest of the spell works according to the [Sonic] descriptor.

[taltamir]

Actually, I agree with Ernir's assessment. Silence can be ruled to protect against Blasphemy, as it has the [sonic] descriptor, which Silence explicitly says it protects against.

ah, i missed that part.

Context is King.

The phrase This effect is sandwiched by two sentences referring to the Banishment effect. I think it is clear that the rest of the spell works according to the [Sonic] descriptor.

very good observation. I guess I was wrong then.
Thus I change my mind... having reread it with careful attention to those points, I think I would say that by RAW silence completely negates all aspects of blasphemy except the banishment.

[Human Paragon 3]

I think this thread needs a trip back to the front page.

[Another_Poet]

I think this is much more theory and much less actual combats, no matter what's been said. This isn't the first challenge like this I've seen, and they rarely work out into actual fights to test the theories. Hopefully, this one is different, but eh, don't hold your breath.

Malakar has already offered to run a fight against the winner. He's retracted that to Swordguy and any entries that use shameless loop exploits. For any other entry that may win I assume he will live up to his word.

COMPLETE LIST OF SUBMISSIONS

Note: If your submission is NOT on this list, or if it looks like I did not address an edit or update to your submission, LET ME KNOW before noon CST on Tuesday 7/27!

If I asked questions about your entry, LET ME KNOW before noon CST on Tuesday 7/27!

After that the winner will be announced and it will be too late to point out something I forgot :)

Starbuck II's Spellward Sniper + 3 Chumps
awaiting team details

Lhurgyof's Humorously Named Four
DEAD. Give details on equipment and tactics if this is a serious submission.

Dextercorvia's "Poor Man's Lucubration 9ths" plus "Krau Sigil Cleric/Wiz" plus two chumps
Status: Pun-Pun's Ladder Good theoretical builds but definitely hits the ladder

aje8's Wraithstrike Nova plus 3 chumps
Status: Pending; convince me you can survive several rounds and repeat your nova, plus survive the death throes.

Awa's Chump with Astral Bomb Skellies, plus three more chumps
Points for Cleverness But the only member of your party still in combat with the Balor is a sad skeleton on the Astral Plane.

Lhurgyof's Diplomancer plus three chumps
Status: Pending; Show me how high you can make your Diplomacy score and how this will allow you to decisively defeat the Balor.

Crazedloon's "Krau Sigil 9ths" plus four chumps
Ninja'd; and Ladder'd Again, brilliant theoretical build, but it's on Pun-Pun's ladder

Swordguy's Fight Smarter Not Harder (four chumps with a sphere of Gygax)
Status: Pending; looks like a complete plan.

Aethernox's Four Go In, Three Come Out
Status: Pending Looks like a complete plan

Awa's Revised Chumps with Skellies and Dust of Sneezing
Status: Pending; Looks like a complete plan

Cespenar's Contract Killers (four Rog5/Assassin1's)
Status: Pending; You're assuming you can get your Hide and Move Silently to +58. Show me the feats & gear. You also assume you can boost your Fort save DC high enough that he will reliably (i..e more than half the time) fail with his +22 modifier. Show me the feats & gear.

jseah's Abramelin and Three Chumps
DEAD. You cannot get a scroll of a 4th level or higher spell, as per the original post. Feel free to tweak and resubmit.
Answer to jseah's question: the spell Gate is not itself banned, but scrolls of it are. If you can find a way to get a 9th level spell using the contest rules without resorting to Pun-Pun's Ladder, then you are golden. Hint: other contestants have found ways of getting 9th level spells.

Biffoniacus_Furious' "That's Not Tinkerbell!" plus three chumps
Status: Pending; Looks like a complete plan

Tyndmyr's If You Like It Then You Shoulda Put an Orb on It
Status: Pending; Looks like a complete plan.

Gaurd_Juris' The Saintly Order of Who Took My Vorpal Sword?
Status: Pending; Looks like a complete plan.

Adumbration's Judge, Jury, and Executioner Plus One
Status: Pending; Looks like a complete plan

Ingus' Bye-Bye Balor
Status: DEAD; Brilliant use of items but your plan ends with banishing the Balor which was specified earlier as not counting as a victory.[/I]

The Shadowmind's Skeleton Crew
Status: DEAD; Operating war machines requires a trained-only Profession (Siege Engineer) check as per the DMG, which default MM skeletons cannot make. You didn't offer a party to show how your necromancer could correct this. Basically 4 chumps walk proudly up to the Balor with 10,000 skeletons and 2500 siege weapons; two rounds later the Balor is on his cell phone asking his demon friends if they have any use for a skeleton army lead by 4 zombies with a look of shock and surprise frozen on their faces.

monkey3's I-Team and the Van
Status: Pending; How does your Necron have Animate Dead to get the bullette? Remember scrolls are not available.

Lhurgyof's "It Worked for Arneson"
Status: DEAD; I love this submission but sadly I think the Balor would have them all dead before realising how cool the game is. So really the Balor is the one who misses out, but still.

Eronai_Jantig's Fistful of Rays
Status: Pending; looks like a complete plan

JeminiZero's "Guardian of Wings"
Status: Pending; Looks like a complete plan

[Malakar]

If you could, please separate out when you do so all "victorious" parties not just the best one, so that I may offer my challenge against all of them.

To parties who may be facing a Balor:

Things I will need from you:
1) Actual Sheets. If you don't feel like finding X more feats, just say Toughness X. If you don't feel like spending more gold, just write "A castle worth X gold."
2) Um...

Things you will need to accept from me:
1) The purpose of the actual Balor challenge is to test your idea against a real Balor that you might run into in a real game, so some of your assumptions will not be in play. Here is what you need to know now:

a) It will be an identical challenge at start (obviously, Balor may react differently) for all parties, please don't read other peoples until you have done your own.
b) You will be inside a dungeon, facing a Balor somewhere in that Dungeon.
c) You will have knowledge that you are facing a Balor. Since in reality, you would not have the ability in e6 to get your skill checks high enough to actually know everything about a Balor that you already knew when you planned your builds... That's just going to be a handicap in your favor.
d) You will have to assault the Balor yourself, because he doesn't feel like coming to you.
e) The Balor is trapped in this Dungeon, because he was Plane Shifted onto a Dungeon Plane. Any method of sending him to another Plane is a failure, not success. The Balor would love to be sent to the Abyss, or to the Astral. That would be great for him.
f) You want to kill the Balor for some reason, that's up to you.

[Hurlbut]

c) You will have knowledge that you are facing a Balor. Since in reality, you would not have the ability in e6 to get your skill checks high enough to actually know everything about a Balor that you already knew when you planned your builds... That's just going to be a handicap in your favor.

Guess what? Go to the greatest library in the lands, get the librarians aid you, Voila! You get bonuses from having a library and the librarians doing aid another actions in research.

[Another_Poet]

If you could, please separate out when you do so all "victorious" parties not just the best one, so that I may offer my challenge against all of them.

I suspect there will be four categories:

1) Winners (one best one gets the tantalizing prize package, a few runners up get the 200 words and digital image.)

2) Builds who could win, but are on Pun Pun's Ladder (DQ'd)

3) Builds who could not succeed or not enough info was given

4) Joke entries

So I imagine you will be offering the challenge to everyone in group (1) and no one from the other groups.

a) It will be an identical challenge at start (obviously, Balor may react differently) for all parties, please don't read other peoples until you have done your own.

This seems a little over the top, a PbP fight can take weeks. This rule will probably mean all the other contestants lose interest by the time their turn comes up after the first contestant.

d) You will have to assault the Balor yourself, because he doesn't feel like coming to you.

If you're building a dungeon and letting them roam it looking for the Balor then they should be able to find ways to lure him to a particular room or set a trap. You've built in WLD style backstory that he is trapped there; a good strategy using that background is to bluff him that they have a way out.

If neither the backstory, nor the rooms of the dungeon, nor the size of the dungeon can come into play and no luring or tricking is possible - then you may as well ditch the dungeon and make it an arena combat.

Just my thoughts - I don't want to step on the toes of your contest or confuse entrants, but I think it bears consideration.

ap

[jseah]

^Another_Poet:
If it's an arena combat, trap based attempts become impossible. Of course, there's a certain element of cheese in those so...

Also, can't I just buy a candle of invocation? I'll eat the 20x cost, even after you add in the 5000xp cost the writers seemed to have forgotten about. (either by paying 25k gp or by losing 1 feat)
Even with the insane pun-pun esque potential of the candle, I'll just be summoning my target balor with it. IE. almost RAI
(I'm trapping and killing the summon instead of getting an ally, so not quite As Intended)

The cleric who's in charge of the candle (or the as-yet-unspecified gate process) will be oriented to buffing cha checks. There also needs to be one artificer to get a scroll of Dimensional Anchor (since it's a 4th level spell).

[Another_Poet]

That's all legal if you can afford the cost. Can you update your post and let us know when it's done? For example which character is being replaced with the artificer, what the cleric build is to get those Cha checks, the strategy after killing the summon, etc.

ap

[Eronai_Jantig]

Were there any otter questions for my build? Did you want me to fully complete the opti-fu on the cleric, Druid and bard, or did you feel the detail was sufficient to get an idea if my party could win.

[Another_Poet]

It seems like sufficient detail, Eronai. Anyone with "looks like a complete plan" on the submission list has satisfied my list of questions about their team.

ap

[dextercorvia]

The only way I know of to get Nines in E6 without climbing Pun Pun's Ladder, is the Naenhoon exploit. An Illumian cleric6 (Or Wiz5/Cleric1) can use 6 turning attempts to heighten a spell to 9th level. Add Earth Spell for 10th. Now take Extra Slot. At least as I read it, it is to the landing. There is no recursion involved, anyway. Now I expect it is too theoretic for Malakar's liking, in that it has no more place in an E6 campaign than a Balor.

I'm still working on my Beatstick, but for now, change my team to the following

BSF: (To follow)
Skillmonkey: Illumian Beguiler4/CloisteredCleric1/Mindbender1
Healbot: Illumian CloisteredCleric6
Batman: Illumian CloisteredCleric1/Wizard5

[Another_Poet]

The only way I know of to get Nines in E6 without climbing Pun Pun's Ladder, is the Naenhoon exploit. An Illumian cleric6 (Or Wiz5/Cleric1) can use 6 turning attempts to heighten a spell to 9th level. Add Earth Spell for 10th. Now take Extra Slot. At least as I read it, it is to the landing. There is no recursion involved, anyway. Now I expect it is too theoretic for Malakar's liking, in that it has no more place in an E6 campaign than a Balor.

Yep that is at the landing but not up the ladder. Impressive. I agree it is against the spirit of E6 and Malakar would probably not send his balor against it, because poory baby balor is scawed of the big bad 9th level spells!

I'm still working on my Beatstick, but for change my team to the following

BSF: (To follow)
Skillmonkey: Illumian Beguiler4/CloisteredCleric1/Mindbender1
Healbot: Illumian CloisteredCleric6
Batman: Illumian CloisteredCleric1/Wizard5

Righty right.

[Swordguy]

It seems like sufficient detail, Eronai. Anyone with "looks like a complete plan" on the submission list has satisfied my list of questions about their team.

ap

Hey, AP, were you going to update my entry up to "looks complete", since I've dealt with the death throes question, or is there something else I need to do?

edit@swordguy: Point taken. Your tactic renders the death throes moot. I'll edit the main submission listing on the front page.

[Malakar]

This seems a little over the top, a PbP fight can take weeks. This rule will probably mean all the other contestants lose interest by the time their turn comes up after the first contestant.

I am capable of running multiple challenges concurrently.

If you're building a dungeon and letting them roam it looking for the Balor then they should be able to find ways to lure him to a particular room or set a trap. You've built in WLD style backstory that he is trapped there; a good strategy using that background is to bluff him that they have a way out.

The Balor doesn't know specifically when you are coming, or anything he wouldn't know about who is coming from his natural abilities.

This is primarily to defeat the "I sneak up to adjacent to the Balor with my +3 Hide checks" line of thinking. And the "I have +11billion init, so I automatically win in an open plane within range" type of comments.

This is supposed to model an actual game situation. So sometimes you have to do something to a Balor that isn't standing within 5ft of you waiting to roll init. Like, maybe he's taking over the world and you have to assault him.

As for luring, sure you can try to lure him out or whatever. Absolutely. Tell him you have a Portable Hole and a Bag of Holding. Whatever works. But the point is that you have to go find him and tell him, and then you are completely at his whim whether he feels like going to visit you.

@9th level spells thing.

No, not really. Because the Heighten is an instantaneous thing upon casting, you can't use those spells that are only modified on casting to meet the pre reqs for Extra Slot, so you can't actually get the Extra Slot 9th level.

[dextercorvia]

The Team:

Big Stupid Fighter
TBA

Skillmonkey
Name: Sneaky McCaster
Race: Illumian
Classes: Beguiler4/CloisteredCleric1/Mindbender1

Stats Str10 Dex 14(20) Con 14(20) Int 19(25) Wis10 Cha 8(14)

Trait: Aggressive(SRD)
Domains: Tyranny(SpC), Domination(SpC)
Power Sigils NaenHoon(RoD)

Feats:

Spoiler

Show

Bonus(Domination Domain):Spell Focus -- Enchantment
1:Able Learner(RoD)
3:Practiced Spellcaster(CA)
6:Mindsight(LoM)
E1:Heighten Spell(SRD)
E2:Earth Sense(RoS)
E3:Earth Spell(RoS)
E4:Extra Turning(SRD)
E5:Arcane Mastery(CA)
E6:Arcane Thesis[Dominate Monster](PHBII)
E7:Twin Spell(CA)
E8:Improved Initiative(SRD)
E9:Greater Spell Focus -- Enchantment(SRD)
E10:Corrupt Spell(CD)
E11:Spell Focus -- Evil(SRD)
E12:Greater Spell Focus -- Evil(SRD)
E13:Malign Spell Focus(BoVD)
E14:Shadow Weave Magic(PGF)
E15:Pernicious Magic(PGF)
E16:Spell Penetration(SRD)
E17:Greater Spell Penetration(SRD)
E18:Fey Heritage(CM)
E19:Fey Power(CM)
E20:Fiendish Heritage(CM)
E21:Fiendish Power(CM)
E22:Quick Reconnoiter
E23-E35:Extra Slot(CA)

Items:

Spoiler

Show

{table=head]Item|Source|Price
Belt of Battle|MIC|12000
with Con +6|MIC|36000
+1 Eager Gauntlet of Warning|MIC|18000
Helm of Wounding Sight|MIC|6500
with Int +6|MIC|36000
Mask of Mastery|MIC|3500
Greater Rod of Metamagic -- Quicken|SRD|170000
Veil of Allure|MIC|14000
Boots of Dexterity +6|MIC|36000
Cloak of Charisma +6|SRD|36000
[/table]

Tactics:

Spoiler

Show

Foresight means never being surprised.

Init +22 means the Balor always looses Initiative.

Spoiler

Show

+4 Improved Init.
+5 Dex
+5 Warning Dagger (Insight)
+2 Eager Dagger
+2 Belt of Battle (Competence)
+2 Aggressive
+2 Two pieces of Armor of Watching Master

Sneaky McCaster casts Quickened Twin Corrupt Dominate Monster followed by Twin Corrupt Dominate Monster from ninth level slots with a save DC of 39,

Spoiler

Show

Base 19
+1 Earth Spell
+7 Intelligence
+2 Veil of Allure
+1 Fey Power
+1 Spell Focus -- Evil
+1 Gr. Spell Focus -- Evil
+1 Shadow Weave Magic
+1 Fiendish Power
+1 Spell Focus -- Evil
+1 Gr. Spell Focus -- Evil
+1 Malign Spell Focus
+1 Tyranny Domain
Quicken from Rod
Naenhoon for Twin

bypassing the Balor's SR by taking 10 for a result of 28.

Spoiler

Show

10 Arcane Mastery
+6 Beguiler level + Practiced Spellcaster
+2 Arcane Thesis
+1 Fey Power
+1 Fiendish Power
+4 Pernicious Magic
+2 Spell Penetration
+2 Greater Spell Penetration

Arcane Caster
Sneaky's brother Arcane McCaster has a similar layout, trading Mindsight and some of the Extra Slots for Extra Spell, so he can accomplish the same basic tasks.

Heal Bot
Their brother Divine Mccaster can do the same thing, replacing Dominate Monster with Monstrous Thrall(SpC) which is permanent (read the text not the table), That is 12 SoL effects coming at the Balor before its initiative count. The Balor only succeeds on any of these on a natural 20. This leads us to the big reveal:

Spoiler

Show

The BSF is

Spoiler

Show

The Balor

@9th level spells thing.

No, not really. Because the Heighten is an instantaneous thing upon casting, you can't use those spells that are only modified on casting to meet the pre reqs for Extra Slot, so you can't actually get the Extra Slot 9th level.

Which Prereq?

EXTRA SLOT
You can cast an additional spell.
Prerequisite: Caster level 4th.
Benefit: You gain one extra spell slot in your daily allotment,
at any level up to one lower than the highest level of
spell you can currently cast.

So long has you haven't used up your naenhoon ability the day you take the feat, you are capable of casting a 10th level spell.

[Malakar]

So long has you haven't used up your naenhoon ability the day you take the feat, you are capable of casting a 10th level spell.

No, you are capable of casting a 3rd level spell, which you are capable of Heightening to 10th level, if you expend a bunch of other abilities that have nothing to do with casting that 3rd level spell.

[awa]

The initial plan was fine but this modification is slightly stronger 2 skeleton users make it harder to stop the skeletons
protection from energy on skeletons and pcs protect vrs fire
evil protects vrs blasphemy
protection from evil protects vrs dominate
every one disguised with full body concealing robes and good aligned holy symbols. this should make it harder for the balor to take pot shots at the useful people

if balors location is unknown spam celestial dogs with summon monster 3 wands send them to look for balor when found go after use skeleton bombs.
cleric has skeleton reapply dust every 5 rounds to insure the balor never has a chance to act (i though about readied actions but i couldn't trust 0 int creatures with that)

the elf wizard is the shooter in this version using his wand of true strike
to reliable hit the balor. Far shot can keep him out of range of the death throws if possible otherwise protection from energy.
Invisibility will keep him from detecting the party when farther then 120 feet away.
Commoners convinced dust will not hurt them vie bluff also planning to suicide

Spoiler

Show

52,500 un spent

1000 bags of coughing and sneezing

44s oil protection from energy

Dwarf Cleric 6
Str 8 dex 8 con 20 int 10 wis 18 cha 6
20 skeletons
38 toughness
Wand summon monster 3

elf Wizard 6
str 8 dex 20 con6 int 18 cha 8
20 skeletons (wand animate dead)
long bow wounding cost x20
Wand true strike
35 toughness
Weapon focus bow , point blank shot, far shot
Wand protection from evil
Wand summon monster 3
Wand invisibility
Spell known haste

Rouge
Str 10 dex 14 con 14 int 10 wis 10 cha 20
Leadership 6 followers
1level 4 commoner
level 1 commoner
ability training ability advancement cha
36 toughness
Disguise 9 ranks
Umd 9 ranks
Bluff 9 ranks
Wand protection from evil

Fighter
43 toughness

ps this was a little bit rushed due to other time constraints and grammar was never my strong point so i apologies in advance