The current main-plot is boring

[Winter]

And that's the nature of the format we have here. When you have 2 or more different groups racing to the same objective, the drama is going to be provided by the things that sidetrack each of those groups on the way.

Good point.
My issue is not that we see sidetracks, but that the goal seems to be pointless to race to. Note: This is true from our (my) perspective, not from the character's perspective.
The characters do not know the things we know (apart from Vaarsuvius), therefore, they still think they have something to gain by being first. It feels like watching a race of several groups to a chest of gold but I already know there's only rotten chocolate in it. The race might be interesting but watching feels not as important as if I believed there was a switch to end the universe in the chest.

[ThePhantasm]

I disagree with all of your points, but I don't want to write up a huge wall of text in reply. So I'll just say this...

As for "boring," I can only say that I'm practically on the edge of my seat right now in this story arc. There's so much tension that's been amped up with the various death prophecies, V's pact with the IFCC, three teams converging on the gate, etc. that my head is spinning with suspense. The writing is superb, and the art is attractive (more and more eye candy, more colorful scenes, new perspectives).

You are welcome to your opinion, Winter, but I have to say I disagree and can't wait to see where this is going.

[Gnomish Wanderer]

From what I understand, the entirety of your problem is that you believe you know what the snarl is, or at least you don't think it's dangerous. Please correct me if my assumption is wrong. Anyway, on the nature of the Snarl, that is your opinion, that is not a fact of the story. If you feel that hinting that the snarl is more complex than we imagined took the tension from the story, I disagree. I feel like it opened it up to some mystery I am waiting eagerly to be solved. Because no matter how much we think we know something about the story that hasn't happened yet, we don't.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

But why then explicitly state you didn't read part of his post? And then (presumably) expect him to read all of yours?

Because I am not trying to hide my intentions. By stating that I didn't read the first post arguments (I did read the intro and the conclusions of each paragraph), I was establishing that I was not participating in this thread to discuss that "The current main-plot is boring". I established from the get-go that I think such proposition is subjective and thus not subject to discussion. Instead, I was establishing that my interest in the thread was for the meta-discussion: why feel the need to post the OP in the first place.

I'm not getting what this comparison might mean in this context.

"Medical test" stands for "arguments". Is anything going to change if you manage to convince me that "The current main-plot is boring" or if you fail to convince me? No. Thus, I can skip the arguments.

You might want to consider that there is no objective truth, so everything you believe, perceive or hold dear is subjective.

Yeah, I disagree with this in the strongest possible terms.

But I suspect that your belief that "there is no objective truth" is why you and I can't seem to have a discussion that doesn't immediately turn into a shouting match.

If I wanted to "incense you", which somehow means I'm not part of you, which is silly given I like the same comic and that is like the defining element of "us" around here, I'd surely have written something else.

Or, alternative, I was using the common meaning of "us" that means "everyone here that isn't you". Since I was the fourth(?) poster showing signs of such in the thread, "us" was a perfectly fine word to use.

Sorry for bringing up a post that does not praise every piece of this comic to heavens

I wouldn't read such a post either. Both are devoid of use to me. But one such post would not endanger the presence of Rich in this forum, while yours does. Rich's rational response to posts such as yours has been to stop reading the forums which, unsurprisingly, is not a result I want.

But anyway, you have provided me with an answer. It is not an answer I can understand, and I doubt this thread will go anywhere but to a flamewar, but if what you wanted was air your feeling about the comic, then I stand by my description of "self-congratulatory subjective opinion post".

And yes, I was stating (veiled? no, quite openly) that this was borderline trolling. Inevitably, any discussion forum with rules against trolling will have some topics that are perilously close to the line. If I had thought you had crossed it, I wouldn't have answered: I would just have flagged your post and moved on, since feeding trolls is against the rules. But I remember you from the Malack is evil discussion, and I didn't think you were a troll. As I said, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. You have convinced me that it wasn't your intention, so at this point I will withdraw.

Grey Wolf

[sam79]

I was not participating in this thread to discuss that "The current main-plot is boring". I established from the get-go that I think such proposition is subjective and thus not subject to discussion.

I don't understand why something subjective cannot be subject to discussion. Almost everything posted on these forums is subjective to a greater or lesser degree. You are right that, in such a situation, posters will not change one another's minds or opinions. But that doesn't render discussion pointless, still less impossible.

For example, I don't share all of the OP's views (I would characterise this arc as 'a slow-starter' rather than 'boring'), but his post did lead me to a thought that had never occured to me before; that the Snarl might not even exist. What's more, I doubt this thought would have occured to me on my own. it has made me think about certain scenes of the comic differently. I don't have to accept this view as correct in order to gain benefit from having heard it.

And for what its worth, nothing that the OP wrote in his first post, or since, would fall into my (subjective, of course) definition of trolling.

[ChristianSt]

Not the point. The story is awesome. There's just nothing at stake when the pressure was left out by showing us there's no real threat coming from the rifts.

Only because there is a world inside the rift, that doesn't mean it is no real threat. That doesn't mean that Redcloaks plan is invalid [The Dark One think it is valid, unless he trolls Redcloak] - and it still could mean the destruction of the world as it is (maybe if enough of the rift is open it will expand and explode the world as it is known). We don't know it (the Order does know even less than we). I think there is enough at stake.

Edit: typos

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I don't understand why something subjective cannot be subject to discussion.

You are right, I was speaking too broadly. Please excuse me. I should clarify: I, personally, don't participate in subjective discussions of this kind; I shouldn't have said that it cannot be discussed, only that I can't discuss it, because once I have established that "I'm fine that you think it is boring, but I disagree, I think it is gripping", that's the end of the discussion for me: there is nothing left for me to say.

And for what its worth, nothing that the OP wrote in his first post, or since, would fall into my (subjective, of course) definition of trolling.

I could see it escalating into a flamewar (I still think it might), so there was a chance it could have been. But even if Winter and I disagree on every topic we've ever crossed paths in, I couldn't imagine him being inflammatory: thus, why I posted. As I said, if I had been convinced that this was trolling, I wouldn't have posted in the first place.

GW

[Tragak]

This thread is boring.

[pjie2]

There's plenty of ways that world could be a threat. Say, for example, it's a world without magic, or a world without Gods. The Snarl's ultimate weapon, ready to destroy the current world and replace it with something else.

[Thrillhouse]

First of all, it is worth pointing out that the fact that there's a planet in the rift doesn't mean there's no threat. It's frankly a bit ridiculous to just leap to that conclusion as though it's established fact, and then say "Welp, there's no stakes now." This would require you to assume that A) this "world" poses no threat to anyone and B) none of the people seeking the gate know there's a world in it(The Dark One and IFCC in particular are unknowns on this one) So on that level you are not entirely grasping what's going on.

Furthermore, though, I think you need to realize that certain things are going on in this arc that, as far as I can tell, you find boring but others find massively interesting and exciting. You seem to mainly be interested in large scale plot events, and less interested in the actual characters. V's inner turmoil over what he/she/it did, Durkon and Malack's relationship, Elan's relationship with his father--as far as I can tell, you don't have much interest in these things, but the current plot arc is ALL about them. Your comment about Nale and Tarquin being basically the same guy also suggests that you aren't appreciating the complexity of these characters and are just seeing them as two villains sharing certain broad personality traits.

Point being: the current arc is boring TO YOU because it is currently doing certain things that you don't personally get much enjoyment from. Just as other readers could concievably be bored by more "plot heavy" arcs because no one's really communicating or growing.

[B. Dandelion]

W-ell... if you define "the main-plot" as the conflict between the OOTS and Team Evil for control of the Gates, you could perhaps argue to some sense of diminished threat here. The OP even fails to bring up what should be a major in that department: this is Gate #6 of 7. By definition, practically, both groups should be expected to come to a draw, because the real conflict can only be over gate #7 of 7, everybody's last chance and last stand, a fight the good guys must triumph in wholly and unambiguously because the baddie who's actually driving the Snarl plot will willingly take world destruction over personal failure. But a lead-up to a straight OOTS v TE fight now, after they've already had two major ones and we're one extraneous Gate and two full books before the finish, would just be setting up expectations for spinning wheels.

Though I don't get how this makes the entire conflict "boring". The seemingly inevitable draw has made me anticipate the conflict will go in the direction of the unexpected, and wildcards will play a key role. Their involvement may indeed redefine the outline of the final battle. Hence I have no issue with the involvement of the Linear Guild and the IFCC, whose abilities and motives aren't entirely known to us at this time, where OOTS v TE are comparatively known quantities. The LG/IFCC don't represent the specific threat Team Evil does, but the gates are for sure a Big Deal and messing with any of them has the potential to end the world. In a sense the LG or the IFCC coming into possession of one might be scarier than TE because of the fact that they may or may not know what they're doing, and who even knows what the IFCC wants with the Gates in the end. That they have a wildcard in Vaarsuvius that even Tarquin can't know about... seriously, the LG are scary not for themselves but because of who's been manipulating them, and if after Haerta you can't find those guys worrisome I dunno what to say.

I also have a very hard time accepting "the existence of Snarl-world has nullified the real threat of the Snarl". That... is a really really BIG leap to make. Honestly, because of Snarl-world, the Snarl is knocked toothless? Can't really get on board with that.

[goodyarn]

IMHO, the Giant's hiatus makes this subplot seem longer than it really is.

Anyway, I'm enjoying it.

[Kish]

#6 of 7.

I'd respond with just ?, if the board would let me.

[B. Dandelion]

I'd respond with just ?, if the board would let me.

For "6 of 7?" 'Cause you could argue the existence still of Kraagor's Gate means Girard's Gate is already doomed. Why have 7 Gates if you're only gonna see 6?

But I got the number of Gates wrong. Sorry.

[Kish]

Yes, that. I wouldn't have blinked if you'd said 4 of 5.

[Fish]

I once felt as Winter now does, when Roy was dead and the Order was squandering time on inconsequential side details. And they are side details: to date, there is no reason to suspect Celia's bout of adventuring, Vaarsuvius's magic research, Haley's leadership of the resistance, Roy's visit to Heaven, the marriage of two minor NPCs, or Therkla's unrequited love for Elan, had much weight on the overall must-defeat-Xykon plot. In the movie version, those bits would be cut.

Although I don't feel that way now, at least I comprehend why a reader might throw up his hands and say "Who cares?"

We know what is (or appears to be!) in the rift. Vaarsuvius knows. We do not know what it means. I can understand why a reader might say, "Why should I care about saving the world if it appears to be in no danger?" But we don't know that, not at all.

If Xykon reaches the Gate he will surely attempt the ritual to move the Rift wherever he pleases. What would that do? We thought we knew, but now we aren't sure.

You feel no tension because you presumed the nature of the Snarl/world/Gate. Are you so confident in your ability to predict this comic, confident you know what Rich will do next? Because if so, Rich has not bored you; you have bored yourself.

[DougTheHead]

Hmm... no.

[Amarsir]

A well-argued position.

I've always perceived OOTS as being a character-driven story, not a plot-driven one. The fact that the plot also has interesting turns is nice, but if the strip was only a means of conveying plot then it's already 400 strips too long for this narrative.

However, because the characters are distinct and deep (except Nale) we want to see them interact. That means we don't need a single driving objective. We need excuses to mix the characters up, and to throw new complex ones at them (like Malack or Tarquin).

So you're right that I also don't feel compelled to find out what happens with the gate. However, I wanted to see Malack vs Durkon, and how Belkar dies, and ultimately how Tarquin affects the Team Evil plans. All the gate means then is a catalyst for making that happen, and that's fine by me.

[Chantelune]

Remember that Redcloack has an agenda of its own : to gives control of the Snarl's prison to his god, who will then threaten the others deities in order to gain more privileges for the goblin's race.

In that regard, that the Snarl is still there or not is irrelevant as long as the gods have a blackout on it. The very idea of the god-killing abomination being on the loose would probably be enough for them to comply.

So far, nobody have any intention to release the Snarl. Xykon want to rule the world with it, yes, but the ritual won't let him, so even if they win, Xykon probably won't realise he was tricked until it's too late and once the Snarl is in control of the Dark One, he won't be able to do much.

So the threat is still there, Snarl or not, just not in the form some here seems to see it. And that, nobody but Redcloack (and us) knows it.

[Amarsir]

And they are side details: to date, there is no reason to suspect Celia's bout of adventuring, Vaarsuvius's magic research, Haley's leadership of the resistance, Roy's visit to Heaven, the marriage of two minor NPCs, or Therkla's unrequited love for Elan, had much weight on the overall must-defeat-Xykon plot. In the movie version, those bits would be cut.

That reminds me: Tsukiko always struck me as unnecessary. She wasn't essential to conquering the city and didn't live long enough to leave it. While Redcloak showed some character growth with her around, the real catalyst was O'Chul. She was a minor antagonist for Haley but generic goblins (or Redcloak for a real challenge) would have worked. And surely Xykon and RC could have defeated Darth V without her as well.

The only purpose I see was as a method for passing ritual exposition to an audience that hadn't read Start of Darkness. And for that it got the job done, but it seemed odd to introduce a seemingly-major character just to lay pipe.

[skim172]

I can appreciate your arguments, but generally, I don't agree with you. Where I think we do have common ground is that I also think the Linear Guild is kinda boring. And the current thread in focus, even if it does tie into the main plot, is still mainly about the Linear Guild/Tarquin/Malack, who, as antagonists, never satisfied me. I understand people really like Tarquin and Malack, but to me, the constant "I'm the evil, suave badass who's always in control" characterization of Tarq that gets continually reinforced is tiring and a little flat.

It does work to have a villain who's always in command and revealing secret ploys and plots and knowledge that frustrate the good guys - in a way, Xykon is kind of that villain as well. But if that villain is continually put into the spotlight, I feel that it starts to get ... expected. We expect by now that with every challenge, Tarq will emerge unscathed and cool. And what I get is a feeling of a lack of closure and repetitiveness. And Tarq just feels obnoxious and annoying.

Xykon works as the "evil badass" for several reasons. First, he doesn't dominate the spotlight - he's generally the evil villain scheming off-screen. Second, when the camera is on Xykon and Co, it's not solely about Xykon and the awesome things he's doing - there's a whole bunch of other things going on there with Xykon and Redcloak. Third, Xykon is kind of a goof. He often plays as the comic relief and the butt of the joke, whereas Tarquin is always the suave, unperturbed, James-Bond-and-martini badass. Lastly, Xykon is ultimately an unknown. There is, with him, a constant sense that he's up to something that his enemies, compatriots, and the audience have no clue about. He's not the "evil badass" that draws in the squealing fans with his charisma - he's the self-appointed evil badass that comes off as a complete psychopath.

Tarquin is designed to be the likable villain - the evil guy who's still charismatic and interesting. But unfortunately, beyond that ... I dunno, I kind of find him boring and obnoxious. I think if Tarq had left the spotlight right after the OOTS escaped the city, he might be more ominous - as it is, I'm not afraid of him, I'm just really annoyed at him.

Eh, but that's just me.

[ThePhantasm]

I used to feel the Linear Guild was boring (and made that critique about a year ago, though not in a thread devoted to a critique). But the Guild has recently been infused with well-written characters (Tarquin and Malack) plus Sabine is getting more of an interesting arc, and Thog has been cut out of the story for at least the time being (I think he's dead). So whereas I (and Belkar and some of the other characters, it seems) once found the LG to be a bit of a yawn they are much more of an interesting threat now.

[Ellye]

The only part of OotS that I really found boring was during the Kubota stuff. Thankfully, V felt the same as me!

[Math_Mage]

This isn't a thriller. It's an adventure. Any argument predicated on the notion that a 'good' story has a high-stakes main plot and doesn't get 'sidetracked' by character development is talking about the wrong genre.

Not that, y'know, revealing that something's going on in the Snarl has actually lessened the stakes, only added mystery.

[Excise]

While I don't agree with every point you (the OP) made, I do think your comments and reasons were well laid out.

[Seharvepernfan]

OP, I understand, but couldn't disagree any harder. Rich, your comic is wonderful and I cannot wait for each new strip to come out. It's priority #1 everyday when I get home from work.

[Fish]

Tsukiko served the purpose well: she could educate the reader about Xykon's and Redcloak's goals, where they would have no reason otherwise to explain them to each other (and thus to the reader). To settle the question, "Why don't they take Tsukiko with them?" she was imbued with enough arrogance and power to make herself a threat to Redcloak, and enough creepy personality that Xykon wasn't overly upset by her death.

Vaarsuvius's subplot had obvious purpose: his attack made possible the phylactery switch, as well as to tell V what the phylactery looked like.

Belkar's subplot about the Mark of Justice isn't fully played out, so I can't definitively say it was useless to the main plot. (Of course, I also cannot definitely say the same about ANY subplot I mentioned. Therkla may have been a roundabout way to make Elan learn a cure spell.)

Thus, it's hard to say for certain "this subplot has no relevance." Rich is a sly one.

[Rakoa]

I read through most of the posts here, and I don't really have anything to add to the arguments. I disagree with you, Winter, in most of your points, but that isn't my point. I want to congratulate you, and thank you, for voicing an opinion that may well (and I believe, has) brought dislike. Whether it is in line or contrary to my own beliefs and opinions, I would think that different points of view should always be expressed, and in doing so with yours you have at the very least given people something to think about it, whether or not they agree with you.

So good job on that, my friend.

And on the matter of trolling; if you can lay our your arguments in a well-spoken matter without using offensive language, whether or not your arguments are agreed with, how can you be considered a troll?

[jere7my]

Winter, I respect your opinions — I like what's been going down, but not everything is going to work for every reader. But I wonder about your central complaint: that we no longer know what the stakes are in the main, Snarl-based plot.

That sounds odd coming from someone who's clearly a huge Song of Ice and Fire fan. We're five books in to that series, and we still really have no idea what the ultimate stakes are in the conflict between "Ice" and "Fire." We know there are two sides (maybe); we know one has wights and things and the other has dragons and fire swords. But we don't know what will happen if either one "wins" (if that's even possible); we don't know who's going to be on which side, apart from a few obvious characters like Melisandre. After thousands of pages, we don't really know what the main conflict is.

...Which is cool. It clearly works, at least for me; I like ambiguity and subtle clues and chains of implication. But that's what we have here, too; we know something weird is going on with the Snarl, because it has a planet inside it, but we don't know what the ultimate conflict is. Will the Snarl destroy the world, and replace it with the one it has in reserve? Is that world populated by Death Slaadi and nycadaemons that will overrun the OotS world if the Snarl is released? Is the Snarl actually not harmful at all, and releasing it would mean releasing a benign sister world? We don't know...which is cool. It clearly works, at least for me.

Again, I don't want to dismiss your review, since it was well-thought-out and fundamentally an issue of personal preference. But this apparent discrepancy struck me as odd.

[SaintRidley]

It seems as if a large component of the issue lies in the fact that we readers know (or think we know) more than the characters (barring V and Blackwing) do. Am I right about that? We (think we) know that nothing dangerous is going on with the rifts, that Xykon and Redcloak's plan has no possibility of working due to the threat they each hope to have over the world having no real power behind it.

And because of this, you think there's no tension, nowhere for the story to really go without pulling something from its ass.

Am I at all right?

See, there's a convention called dramatic irony, where the audience knows what the characters don't. And the tension suddenly does not lie in the reader finding out what happens, but in the character finding out. This may not work for you, but it's a pretty long-running convention in storytelling. I'm not really sure what else to say.