Is tithing bad?

[Jon_Dahl]

No, not at all. With the Souls = Power deal going, deities don´t need any show of obeisance from their worshippers beyond that. They have absolute proof of who is a true believer and who is a deceiver, so to say. A cult can also be pretty independent of wealth, because it has an actual spell- and wish-granting deity at its back, you know, unlike the real world.

Yes, but in order to attract followers, rich churches have more means at their disposal. Of course the PCs can join up a cult that requires no tithes (I have those in my game too), but generally being affiliated to a church means that you have to or you should pay something. I'm not an expert, but generally religions work like this. For me, the general idea of "access to powerful clerical spells"+"the church wants to build 20 new shrines and 2 new temples"+"worshipper loyalty to their deity must be tested and verified" = tithes seems like reasonable math.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

If you want them to tithe, they have to receive some kind of benefit. "Goodwill of the church" is a benefit only if you make it one.

*snip*

This made me think of a medieval DocWagon-style church subscription service, with clerics showing up mid-dungeon to Revivify poor Rufus because he paid the low, low cost of 100 gp per week.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Yes, but in order to attract followers, rich churches have more means at their disposal. Of course the PCs can join up a cult that requires no tithes (I have those in my game too), but generally being affiliated to a church means that you have to or you should pay something. I'm not an expert, but generally religions work like this. For me, the general idea of "access to powerful clerical spells"+"the church wants to build 20 new shrines and 2 new temples"+"worshipper loyalty to their deity must be tested and verified" = tithes seems like reasonable math.

This directly contradicts your answer about Churches of trade and commerce. Selling spellcasting services is one of the most profitable endeavors a character can undergo and turning those profits around into spreading the church's influence; through public works, charities, and reputable business investments; draws more worshipers and increases the church's temporal power.

The cleric simply keeping the money would represent a corruption of political power, a betrayal against the faith and its adherents, and a failure of his peers to keep the faith.

[Coidzor]

You probably need to go back to the drawing board, OP, and revisit why you're so deadset on this as well as making it more coherent if you do decide you want to be this gungho about it.

[ryu]

If the goal of your church is money it's far more efficient to set people with actual divine power to the task of making it. Even selling spells, which is the baseline method, is more efficient than demanding tithes. It's also much easier to attract swaths of willing commoners if you don't have them pay a subscription service.

To put this in perspective a single cleric capable of casting genesis can create a demiplane made entirely of platinum and completely obviate the money making abilities of the entire non-magical world. What amount of tithing is supposed to equal that?

[Jon_Dahl]

This directly contradicts your answer about Churches of trade and commerce. Selling spellcasting services is one of the most profitable endeavors a character can undergo and turning those profits around into spreading the church's influence; through public works, charities, and reputable business investments; draws more worshipers and increases the church's temporal power.

The cleric simply keeping the money would represent a corruption of political power, a betrayal against the faith and its adherents, and a failure of his peers to keep the faith.

You have a point. The clerics of commerce in game are exclusively lawful, so in any case they resent being spell-o-matics. In general, almost any solution that doesn't begin with a stranger barging to the temple and offering lots of gold for reviving another stranger is doable.

[ryu]

You have a point. The clerics of commerce in game are exclusively lawful, so in any case they resent being spell-o-matics. In general, almost any solution that doesn't begin with a stranger barging to the temple and offering lots of gold for reviving another stranger is doable.

Why? That is literally how commerce for services works. The only difference is that in our world we don't have access to the service of reviving people. You bet your bottom dollar if we did it would sell like gods damned hotcakes. Bonus points if we get reincarnate to set you to a younger age.

[Florian]

Yes, but in order to attract followers, rich churches have more means at their disposal. Of course the PCs can join up a cult that requires no tithes (I have those in my game too), but generally being affiliated to a church means that you have to or you should pay something. I'm not an expert, but generally religions work like this. For me, the general idea of "access to powerful clerical spells"+"the church wants to build 20 new shrines and 2 new temples"+"worshipper loyalty to their deity must be tested and verified" = tithes seems like reasonable math.

You know that, unlike the real world, the clergy of a real deity can perform miracles on a routine base, right? Stuff like healing the lame/blind, feeding the masses by multiplying a fish by 100 are routine things even a lowly adept of the faith can pull of. You don´t need to awe people with your structures, rituals and elaborate robes when you wield actual divine power.

Now being more deity-specific, when a deity is linked to a portfolio (commerce, weather, light, night) it would make absolutely no sense to not do what is part of the portfolio, like blessing the fields for free, having the the-sun-raises-in-the-east ritual each morning, trading spells for gold, and so on.

[Larsen]

To make tithing/offering count, I thought of the following:
- keep track of the sum each player payed to each church/god
- When you feel like it, grant the player the effect of a spell of one of the gods domains, deducting the spell casting cost from the amount payed.

It allows divine intervention, potentially saving a character or giving him a boost to succeed in a task.

You can also have it 50% chance to happen when in dire need, to avoid a garanted life insurance without the player resenting you from not using the divine intervention.

[Amphetryon]

OP, it may help you to decide whether - in your game's universe - gaining more worshipers is something the deity needs (in which case tithes are superfluous), or something the clergy needs (in which case tithes may be necessary due to economic constraints on expansion). Defaulting to a particular understanding of a real-world model, as it would appear is your preference, is fine, but needs to be clearly communicated at your table. An additional factor that might need explanation is why the deities in question desire/allow this particular model to function if it does not actually suit their needs.

From a game mechanics POV, remember that enforcing tithes directly impacts WBL, which is supposed to be a built-in factor in encounter difficulty. If you don't account for the discrepancy, you're requiring that the game is played on Hard mode.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You have a point. The clerics of commerce in game are exclusively lawful, so in any case they resent being spell-o-matics. In general, almost any solution that doesn't begin with a stranger barging to the temple and offering lots of gold for reviving another stranger is doable.

They're Lawful. The most Lawful of the planes (Mechanus) is all about being "good little cogs in the machine."

Honestly, you seem to want to go out of your way to push your players into wasting their resources and, furthermore, punish them for doing so, and in a way that goes completely against logical sense, considering how their world works, just so that you're roughly emulating a world that works completely differently.

Something's gotta give, because what you're doing now won't work.

[Jon_Dahl]

I was thinking about defending the tithing thing, especially in the case of the clerics of commerce, a bit more, but I see that it's futile. I respect your point of view, I hope you respect mine too.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I was thinking about defending the tithing thing, especially in the case of the clerics of commerce, a bit more, but I see that it's futile. I respect your point of view, I hope you respect mine too.

Maybe you could take our reasoning as similar to that of your players? If we don't want to tithe because of the reasons we're stating, why wouldn't your players have similar views, especially since they're reacting in a similar way?

If we're telling you, "yes, tithing is bad, and here's why" and giving you the answers to the questions you're asking, and you're refusing to acknowledge them because they're not the answers you want, then why ask the questions in the first place?

[Jon_Dahl]

Maybe you could take our reasoning as similar to that of your players? If we don't want to tithe because of the reasons we're stating, why wouldn't your players have similar views, since they're reacting in a similar way?

If we're telling you, "yes, tithing is bad, and here's why" and giving you the answers to the questions you're asking, and you're refusing to acknowledge them because they're not the answers you want, then why ask the questions in the first place?

First of all, I was asking for your views. For some reason I ended up debating, which I just stopped. Now we can continue normally.

Secondly, I wanted to know how to make tithing work.

Everything is going just ok.

[A.A.King]

The thing is that some mechanics/ideas only work if the players really want them to work. From a character's perspectucs tithing is either plain and simple extortion OR the right thing to do and it all depends on how devout the character is. The only way to make this work is the standard way: ask your players.
"Hey Guys, I want our next campaign to be in a world where tithing is the norm so I want you to make characters who are okay with that, alright?"
That really is the best if not the only way. If you start giving simple benefits based on how much you tith there will be plenty of players who would rather spend their money on other benefits. If you make it the obviously optimal thing to do (based on benefit to hold ratio) you will still have players who view tithing as 'uncool' and 'not something my character would do' and they'll see it as just an unfair punishment on the nondevout characters but they will not change their way and simply accept the challenge. Finally, if you find a way to make it basically mandatory to do but without consulting your players then players will just get upset.

The answer to "How do I make tithing work" is simple: "Ask your players to help make it work"

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I was thinking about defending the tithing thing, especially in the case of the clerics of commerce, a bit more, but I see that it's futile. I respect your point of view, I hope you respect mine too.

It's basic mathematics. You can have a parish priest demanding tithes of 1 copper piece a week per family (because even that is damaging a commoner's ability to buy food, considering how little they make) from the ten families in his parish, or he can donate most of his spells to keeping his parish healthy and sell a single cure light wounds a week to the wealthy but fairly amoral (but not immoral) local lord to help keep his debauchery-induced syphillis under control for a hundred times that amount. And keep in mind, that's just one spell slot per week. He has quite a lot more than that available every day.

[Jon_Dahl]

I'm just going to bite my tongue here.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I'm just going to bite my tongue here.

Probably for the best, especially considering that most gods don't care about the aforementioned debauchery (so long as it doesn't impinge on their portfolios or alignments), and so their priests would likely not care, either.

[Elder_Basilisk]

In the current campaign, I'm running, the requirements for magical services are set by law.

The followers of the god of commerce are not modern free marketers, but old-school monopolists (modern fascist/socialist). They see selling their services as an important revenue generator and resented other temples undercutting their prices just because the peasants "couldn't afford it" or "we want to support this important quest." So, they waited until the local ruler needed some money (yeah, I know. it wasn't a long wait) and made him an offer he couldn't refuse. The state was to set minimum prices for all spellcasting. That way, all the temples wouldn't be bankrupted by out of control competition. (That's usually the excuse for that kind of thing).

Now, the other temples in the land had quite a bit of influence and while they couldn't head off the law entirely, they got a couple exceptions written in for them:
1. If the priest is not connected to a fixed temple and is not a member of the local hierarchy, the minimum prices do not apply. (After all, how will you confiscate property he doesn't have or punish an organization he's not connected to?) This satisfied the local god of war and chivalry. Questing knight clerics can cast whatever they want and not worry about the law. (Conveniently, it also works as an exemption for spellcasting PCs who might otherwise be breaking the law).
2. If the supplicant is an officially recorded dues paying member of the temple, the standard prices need not apply and the temple can charge (or not charge) whatever it wants. This satisfied the local neutral good god's temple because they can set income based dues and still provide their members with reduced cost or free services.

The net effect of the laws is that:
A. The is an in-game reason to just use the PHB formula for determining how much a spell costs--it's the law.
B. If a PC is a member of the church, they can pay a portion of their income instead and get spells at just over material component cost.

[Fouredged Sword]

For a wandering adventurer? Yeah, the temple ether cuts itself off from serving people from outside the community entirely or opens itself up to a stranger walking in, preforming the correct rituals of greeting and supplication, throwing down a stack of gold, and requesting spellcasting services.

There is no viable way for a temple of low level clerics to verify that someone has payed their tithe unless they know that person.

Besides that, the temples are in competition with one another. There is a temple for rogues, for murderers, for travelers... Someone works with every community. A necromancer may not be able to walk into a temple of Palor and get spellcasting, but a temple of a darker god, sure!

If all souls are equal then it makes a great deal of sense to have a two tiered system. You can A) show up and listen to a one time sermon and pay a LARGE stack of cash to get spellcasting services the same or (in casr the spell isn't preped) next day, or B show up every week for the scheduled sermon and post sermon free or discounted spellcasting. It's about getting butts in seats so you can get your message out. It's about ensuring that people come to YOU, not the other guy down the street.

The people who work and live in your community and are active members of your church are given GOOD reason to stay active. That guy who wandered in from outside of town? He's going to pay and sound like a worshiper and probably stay for a sermon to make sure your god's message is planted.

With the options of many churches people will go to the church that most agrees with their own faith and thus those they more most susceptible to the preaching of. The only exception is when one church has a cleric with higher level spell access and thus a partial or complete monopoly on some spells. They can then ensure that everyone is forced to give them money and let them try to convince them to switch faiths.

Taking money for spellcasting is a no-lose situation for the church. You get money to convert people and get a chance to convert those who may or may not share your faith.

[Gildedragon]

If the tithe brings divine favor then have each amount they pay be turned into Action Points or Hero Points. Each 300gp they spend on the church they get 1 hero point, they can have no more that 3 at a time... But they'll use them up. Being able to reroll a d20, act out of turn, or get a +8 to a skill, are all very useful things

You can also have churches function as organizations: join and do your part and get benefits. Clerics might go "You know, you don't have to be of a priestly vocation to join the temple. [Deity] is always on the lookout for a good sword/spell arm to do good deeds... You'd get a sizeable discount to these visits..." Or "You know, the Temple of Boccob has the largest Grimoiretheque in the known world, but it is only accesible to the Faithful." Have the clerics proselytize.
Heck design [Healing] incantations that take a minute to cast. Spell slots are for emergencies.
And remember tithes can be paid in kind: farmers might offer part of their harvest, adventurers can do quests. Heck, asking an Erudite to turn their oil lamps into Perpetual Flames is all but free for the Erudite and saves the church money on lamp oil forever. Asking the bard to play the church's lyre of building to get the cathedral built faster...

[Hecuba]

Tithing generally represents a nonstandard, if not particularly novel, world building decision that inherently had mechanical implications (you're asking the players to literally give away power).

It can work, but you need to have a firm idea of what you want the result to be, both narratively and mechanically.

In 3.5, the ready-made support for the idea is limited: the closest is likely Vow of Poverty, which is both more extreme than you likely want for a simple tithe and not actually well balanced (you effectively need to have been planning on giving away all your treasure anyway to make it a sound mechanical choice).

There has been support for it in prior editions, however. Paladins tithed in earlier editions, as did Knights of Solomia in Dragonlance. The key was that the resulting power difference was baked into the XP tables, along with a lot of other things. That won't work with the standardized XP tables of 3rd and later, but the fact that it existed is a good demonstration that it can work it you balance it properly.

[Vogie]

Yeah, You have to really flesh it out for it to be viewed as anything other than a tax. Some ways to get around that...

There's a pantheon, and each player chooses whom they tithe to. There could be tithes of coin, of service, of blood, of gems, of wine, of bones, et cetera; each with a benefit, which could be anything from "free healing" to "free blacksmithing" or "weapon insurance" or "cheap consumables". It's not just "because reasons", it's just built into the system that gives them meaningful choices.

Make it a genuine game mechanic. You don't pay the tithe, suddenly the clerics become hateful (Spanish?) inquisitors in the night. Basically, they're a higher-level-then expected dungeon in broad daylight that you can buy your way out of, with the low low cost of not knowing that ahead of time.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Make it a genuine game mechanic. You don't pay the tithe, suddenly the clerics become hateful (Spanish?) inquisitors in the night. Basically, they're a higher-level-then expected dungeon in broad daylight that you can buy your way out of, with the low low cost of not knowing that ahead of time.

You know what one of my characters would have said to this?

"Ooh. You mean I don't have to throw money down the outhouse and I get free loot and experience? This even saves me the trouble of going to them! It's a win/win!"

He was a very powerful and very bloodthirsty LE antitheist.

[Gildedragon]

Make it a genuine game mechanic. You don't pay the tithe, suddenly the clerics become hateful (Spanish?) inquisitors in the night. Basically, they're a higher-level-then expected dungeon in broad daylight that you can buy your way out of, with the low low cost of not knowing that ahead of time.

That's bad advice. Have them attack the PCs only if attacked, or are the PCs already known to be evil? Or are the Churches protection rackets?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

That's bad advice. Have them attack the PCs only if attacked, or are the PCs already known to be evil? Or are the Churches protection rackets?

It's a fully acceptable strategy, especially for Evil churches.

[Shpadoinkle]

For years I've tried to have all sorts of PCs to tithe, to churches mainly, but the results have been poor. The problem seems to be twofold: greed and laziness. Players can't be bothered to keep track of what they earn so they don't know what to tithe. I haven't been too happy about this, because I think tithing is really medieval and I would even say "cool", so it's unfortunate that they my efforts have been in vain.

What do you think about tithing in general? Any tips how to make it work?

Well, first I think you need to answer two questions.

1: Why do you want your PCs to tithe? Because you haven't presented any reason for them to.

2: What do they get out of it? Again you haven't given any reason to do it, and second, as a player, I'd be asking "Why should I be giving 10% of my money to these *******s? I'm the one who risked my ass for it, they can earn their own damn money."

[daremetoidareyo]

I am of the opinion that tithing is bad. It is no fun. Heck, it is anti-fun.

"Great! we get all of this treasure, except that we don't."

Treasure, mind you, isn't even taxed if you find it in the real world. The government and churches can't track the existence of treasure in the way that they can track goods that have receipts. So it is a case of finders keepers.

The particularly pious can tithe if they want to, but demanding tithes as a DM from all players is lame. Especially if the the benefits of this behavior are not mechanical in nature. I play d&D to avoid having to think about taxes.

If I was in a campaign like this, I would most assuredly not pay my tithes, and may even plot schemes to steal or skim the tithing agencies, seeing as how their finances aren't likely to have very good records. Even if they did have good records, at some point any system instated by people has a step that requires trust, and that is the weak link to attack to get the easy money. A few gather informations later, and I'm rolling in other peoples cash.

I would then use that money to produce power and allies that demand additional tithes or we'll smash their stupid faces. Smashing faces is super easy compared to actually earning money. Guilt tripping people as a part of a church is just as easy.

[Mr Adventurer]

If your players are so against tithing that they won't even do it to secure their characters' access to essential services, then you might want to re-examine what you want to get out of your game, let alone the act of trying to get them to tithe.

[Vogie]

That's bad advice. Have them attack the PCs only if attacked, or are the PCs already known to be evil? Or are the Churches protection rackets?

Hardly. You think the only good advice is that the church can only self-defend or only attack the game-defined evil? You're thinking of "Lets make it exactly the same as it's always been".

Let's step outside that box, methinks.

A wonderful example would be from Fullmetal Alchemist, Father Cornello in the town of Liore/Reole (or, you know, the actual Spanish inquisition, or Salem Witch 'trials'). Your merry band of self-righteous murderhobos just wander in, thinking it's great that the people are happy and beer is cheap, so most of them pay the tithe for free things. The antitheists don't, and they happily let it go.

Nightfall occurs, everyone's resting and hark! the antitheists are kidnapped! They're to be hanged/defenestrated/decapitated/burned like the steak for their crime of not tithing (or some other crime of your choice)

Maybe the rest of the party wakes at the sound of the mob and have to save their own. Maybe the antitheists have to figure it out on their own. Maybe they are alone and perish... but it was only a nightmare (or a warning!).

This is a wonderful pile of levers and opportunity for a story teller.