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Thread: Worst Prerequisites
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2011-12-27, 08:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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2011-12-27, 08:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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2011-12-27, 08:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst Prerequisites
I go with the latter interpretation as far as RAW is concerned - the "primary source" for what happens when you cease to qualify for a PrC is CWar/CArc, and neither are worded to imply they only hold for those books.
Let's put it this way - CWar has rules on heavy falling objects. Do those rules apply only to heavy objects from the CWar book, or to any heavy falling object?
That said, I'm of the opinion that strict-RAW is rarely the best way to play in practice, and that a good DM will make judgement calls. Some PrCs obviously don't make sense if you lose the requirements (RSoP who converts to Nerrul, for exaple). Some do make sense that way (Reaping Mauler under the effect of Enlarge Person). Really, this is part of what the DM's there for, and should be left to their discretion.
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2011-12-27, 08:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst Prerequisites
Originally Posted by KKL
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2011-12-27, 08:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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2011-12-27, 08:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst Prerequisites
Which rule would you follow if you did want to apply this idea generally? The rules are substantially different:
- You retain class features other than the column marked Special with the Complete Arcane rule (lose "all special abilities"), which means you retain all those Spells Known/Spells per Day features), but there is no recovery method stipulated to regain what you've lost, ever.
- With the Complete Warrior rule you lose more (lose "the benefit of any class features or other special abilities"), but it's only the benefits that are gone rather than the abilities themselves, so those return when you re-qualify.
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2011-12-27, 08:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst Prerequisites
78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
I was magically yanked out of my bed by a Demon Lord, and deposited into a huge dungeon with three strangers. None of them were pyromaniacs :(
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2011-12-27, 09:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst Prerequisites
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2011-12-27, 09:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst Prerequisites
I'm sure there's not, since that book doesn't have any rules about prestige classes.
According to the official word on the matter, only the three core manuals are ever named as primary source books.Errata Rule: Primary Sources
When you find a disagreement between two D&D® rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct. One example of a primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over a table entry. An individual spell description takes precedence when the short description in the beginning of the spells chapter disagrees.
Another example of primary vs. secondary sources involves book and topic precedence. The Player's Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing the game, for playing PC races, and for using base class descriptions. If you find something on one of those topics from the Dungeon Master's Guide or the Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player's Handbook, you should assume the Player's Handbook is the primary source. The Dungeon Master's Guide is the primary source for topics such as magic item descriptions, special material construction rules, and so on. The Monster Manual is the primary source for monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities.
- Those rules are stricken from the game, per the Primary Sources Errata rule.
- Those rules have only local (to that book) scope, where they don't cause a disagreement.
There's also a replacement rule which would work exactly counter to your belief, but that only applies when there's something with the same name, and Complete Arcane's rule doesn't have a name. Apart from that, publication date doesn't matter a whit: it doesn't make any source more important than another.Last edited by Curmudgeon; 2011-12-27 at 09:29 PM.
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2011-12-27, 09:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst Prerequisites
AFAIK the DMG is considered the primary source when dealing with Prg. Classes; but I see from where you are coming. And I completely agree with your other point, that some classes make sense to loose stuff if they can no longer qualify, primary Divine classes as they are granted those powers; but for others, mainly the martial classes, it just doesn't make sense from an IC perspective to me.
I have to admit that I haven't read those rules in detail and till now I didn't see that difference; but if I had to choose I would go with CWar ruling. Having said that what I would rule in those case would be:
If you no longer qualify for a prestige class for whatever reason, you keep all special abilities derived from the class including BAB, save and skill progression; but you cannot longer take levels on that class until you qualify again.
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2011-12-27, 09:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst Prerequisites
Hidecarved Dragon, anyone? Has anyone found a way to finish it pre-epic yet, barring TO shenanigans?
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2011-12-27, 09:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst Prerequisites
Anarchic initiate was designed to be a wilder PrC, but its prereqs are as follows:
Alignment: Any Chaotic.
Skills: Knowledge (Psionics) 8 ranks, Knowledge (The Planes) 8 ranks.
Special: Wild surge class feature or Overchannel feat.
Class Skills
The wilder’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Autohypnosis* (Wis), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration* (Con), Craft (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (psionics)* (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Psicraft* (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex).
Yes, the custom-made 10-level wilder PrC is BETTER for a psion than a wilder, since the latter can't even enter it until 14th level and can't finish it out anywhere near pre-epic.Last edited by Rubik; 2011-12-27 at 09:31 PM.
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2011-12-27, 09:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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2011-12-27, 09:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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2011-12-27, 09:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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2011-12-27, 09:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst Prerequisites
They're listed as "examples" of primary sources. But I see what you mean about the replacement rule. I prefer the CW rule on a metagame level, for reasons already stated, but I'd be prepared to accept CArc as the one with RAW priority. I just don't think the argument that they only apply within their respective books holds any water; nothing in the wording suggests that, and nobody I know of applies the other rules of the game like that.
Again, there's the falling object damage table from CWar; normally DMG would be the primary source on environmental hazards like that, so is the CWar text null and void? Does it only apply to objects in that book?Last edited by sonofzeal; 2011-12-27 at 09:48 PM.
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2011-12-27, 10:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst Prerequisites
Tangentially, I think you can qualify for Fochulcan Lyrist with only paladin as your base class...
Harmonious Knight 4/War Chanter 5/Hoardstealer 1/Loredelver 3/Fochulcan Lyrist 7 seems to work, although you need Illumian cheese. Not great on a power level, but it's an interesting exercise."Hex grids are the way forward! And slighty to the side..." - Studoku
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2011-12-27, 11:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst Prerequisites
Fiend-Blooded is similar - it's clearly intended as a Sorcerer prestige class, yet one of it's reqs is Knowledge (The Planes) 8 ranks, which isn't a Sorcerer skill. Sure, you can get around that with Knowledge Devotion, Planar Sorcerer sub levels and a few other ways, but it's an obvious oversight by the designer, since the sample characters don't even legally qualify.
It also has two fairly suboptimal feats (Blood Calls to Blood, Eschew Materials) as reqs. Eschew Materials is only ever useful if you've lost your spell component pouches somehow.Last edited by Thurbane; 2011-12-27 at 11:21 PM.
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2011-12-27, 11:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst Prerequisites
Yep. It was actually in the FAQ, and it cites CWar's ruling.
SpoilerWhat happens when an assassin becomes non-evil?
A character who no longer meets the requirements of his
prestige class not only can’t advance any further in that class,
but he also “loses the benefit of any class features or other
special abilities granted by the class.” (CW 16) You retain Hit
Dice (and the hit points derived from), base attack bonus, and
base save bonuses granted by the prestige class.
The rules don’t specifically list skill points (and class
skills) as falling into either category; the Sage recommends that
the character retain these functions even if he no longer meets
the class requirements.
So your repentant assassin would lose his sneak attack,
death attack, poison use, save bonus against poison, uncanny
dodge, improved uncanny dodge, and hide in plain sight class
features, as well as his assassin spellcasting and any weapon
and armor proficiencies gained from the class. He’d keep the
skill ranks he bought with his assassin levels, as well as the hit
points, base attack, and base save bonuses gained from those
class levels. He also couldn’t gain any more assassin levels
until his alignment returned to evil (at which point he’d also
regain the various features he lost when his alignment changed
to non-evil).78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
I was magically yanked out of my bed by a Demon Lord, and deposited into a huge dungeon with three strangers. None of them were pyromaniacs :(
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2011-12-27, 11:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst Prerequisites
I hope to have fallen just short of shenanigans in your eyes:
Kobold Cleric1/Archivist6/ChurchInquistor1/Ruathar1/SacredExorcist1/HideCarvedDragon10
Domains: Planning, Plant
ACF: Destroy Undead
Feats
Planning Domain: Extend Spell
Trade Plant Domain: Plant Devotion
Flaw: Persistent Spell
Flaw: Divine Metamagic
1: Dragonwrought
3: Photosynthetic Skin
Otyugh Hole: Iron Will
6: INArmor
9: INArmor
Relevant Equipment: Reliquary Holy Symbol, Gleaming Scales Grafts X5
Prereq's:
Dragon Type -- Dragonwrought
LG Alignment
Natural Armor 1(Kobold)+2(Photosynthetic Skin)+2(Improved Natural Armor)+5(Gleaming Scale Grafts)+2(Plant Devotion)+8(Persisted Bite of the Wereboar)=20
Base Will Save +2+5+2+2+2=+13Dex
SpoilerRegarding my Necrotic Apprentice trick:
Regarding my Non-Epic Hidecarved Dragon:
Check out the Versatile Domain Generalist.
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2011-12-27, 11:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst Prerequisites
I think Planar Sorcerer is a pretty flavorful entry into Fiend-blooded though and don't mind the oversight from that perspective.
Indeed; and according to PHB, there are only 11 base classes - are all the others in splats homebrew?
There's a tendency around here, especially by certain posters, to devote themselves far too slavishly to Primary Source.
EDIT: thanks Fredgar for the FAQ cite as well.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)
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2011-12-27, 11:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst Prerequisites
Actually, that comes directly from the rules text in these books. From Complete Warrior Chapter 2: Prestige Classes:
THE MARTIAL PRESTIGE CLASSES
These classes follow the format presented in the Dungeon Master’s Guide.
...
Most of these classes have combat-oriented requirements.
...
Meeting Class Requirements: It’s possible for a character to take levels in a prestige class and later be in a position where the character no longer qualifies to be a member of the class. An alignment change, levels lost because of character death, or the loss of a magic item that granted an important ability are examples of events that can make a character ineligible to advance farther in a prestige class.
If a character no longer meets the requirements for a prestige class, he or she loses the benefit of any class features or other special abilities granted by the class. The character retains Hit Dice gained from advancing in the class as well as any improvements to base attack bonus and base save bonuses that the class provided.
The language surrounding the different rule in Complete Arcane is set up similarly:This chapter presents nineteen prestige classes appropriate for arcane spellcasters and characters of other classes who wish to acquire arcane abilities.
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2011-12-28, 12:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst Prerequisites
Can we take the old debate to a new thread please?
Dex
SpoilerRegarding my Necrotic Apprentice trick:
Regarding my Non-Epic Hidecarved Dragon:
Check out the Versatile Domain Generalist.
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2011-12-28, 12:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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2011-12-28, 12:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst Prerequisites
Archmage. Not as bad as some others, but take a look.
Skills: Know (Arcane) 15, Spellcraft 15. Both mechanically and flavor-fully, it makes sense that a class described as an ultimate caster needs to know things most couldn't normally learn. This is fine.
Feats: Spell Focus in two schools. Why? Spell Focus doesn't fit with the master of all feel intended. It's supposed to represent real dedication to that school. Worse is Skill Focus: Spellcraft. At 15 ranks, you can already identify all spells you could even see non-epic on take 10, and only rarely fail before then. So what good does this do?
Spells: Able to cast 7th level spells, knowledge of 5th level or higher from five schools. Painful, as it all but bars spontaneous casters, and requires that you be a real batman type either way.
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2011-12-28, 01:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst Prerequisites
AM isnt all that bad, a 1st lvl human wizard with 1 flaw meets the feat requirements right away. since its primarily meant for wizards, the skills are no biggie since youre gonna have a high int, and the spell level requirements are to make it accessed only past 10th level(without cheesy shenanigans), to show true arcane mastery.
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2011-12-28, 08:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst Prerequisites
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2011-12-28, 08:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst Prerequisites
Last edited by gkathellar; 2011-12-28 at 08:28 AM.
Originally Posted by KKL
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2011-12-28, 08:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst Prerequisites
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2011-12-28, 08:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst Prerequisites