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Thread: Word of Recall
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2013-07-30, 02:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Word of Recall
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)
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2013-07-30, 02:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
Re: Word of Recall
Malack somehow thought that Elan and Haley and Vaarsuvius, Durkon, Roy and Belkar, all just coincidentally met in the palace and formed a party on the spot. No, I would not describe him as paranoid
Last edited by Kornaki; 2013-07-30 at 02:58 PM.
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2013-07-30, 03:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2007
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- Olympia, WA
Re: Word of Recall
Malack was not born a vampire, who became a snake. Nor was he born a High Priest, who became an adventurer. Malack could have learned all kinds of things in his life prior to becoming either. He did not build his skills to prepare for this battle; rather, he learned from previous battles.
Perhaps Malack learned holds from Tarquin because, during their adventures to secure the continental empire, they defeated Malack's old vampire master. Perfectly plausible reason why he might have needed a grapple against an energy-drain-immune creature.The Giant says: Yes, I am aware TV Tropes exists as a website. ... No, I have never decided to do something in the comic because it was listed on TV Tropes. I don't use it as a checklist for ideas ... and I have never intentionally referenced it in any way.
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2013-07-30, 03:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
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- Annapolis, Maryland
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2013-07-30, 03:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2004
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2013-07-30, 03:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2004
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Re: Word of Recall
True that.
Malack already rates as a weak healer for the likes of a highish level party like Team Tarquin, even without Word of Recall. As he seems to not be enthusiastic for front line duty, within an evil party, Malack is the kind of person whose demise might be arranged, to make room for fresher and more team-useful blood.
So the Word of Recall only sends you quickly to where the vat of Holy Water is waiting, next to the shattered remains of your coffin, sooner rather than later.Last edited by Snails; 2013-07-30 at 03:11 PM.
I owe Peelee 5 Quatloos. But I am going double or nothing that Durkon will be casting 8th level spells at the big finale.
I bet Goblin_Priest 5 quatloos that Xykon does not know RC has the phylactery at this point in the tale (#1139).
Using my Bardic skills I see the fate of Belkar...so close!
Using my Bardic skills I see the fate of goblinkind!
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2013-07-30, 03:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
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- Annapolis, Maryland
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Re: Word of Recall
I guess that's possible, but I'm not sure how likely it is. Malack was alive for a couple of centuries, whereas Tarquin is what? 50, 60 years old? I just don't imagine many thralls are allowed to wander that far from the nest while their masters are alive. Meeting up with, forming an alliance with, and plotting to overthrow your master is not something you can do when you have vampire dad breathing down your neck.
Last edited by BenjCano; 2013-07-30 at 03:11 PM.
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2013-07-30, 03:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2007
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- Olympia, WA
Re: Word of Recall
All right, then; a lich. A wizard who suspected Malack's vampiric nature. A fight in an Anti-Magic Field. Battling a zombie demonic were-golem with a spiky hat. My point is, if you're asking, "How did Malack know he would need that power for this fight?" then you're asking the wrong question. He's 200 years old; he's had plenty of time and excuses to pick up all kinds of skills for various reasons.
The Giant says: Yes, I am aware TV Tropes exists as a website. ... No, I have never decided to do something in the comic because it was listed on TV Tropes. I don't use it as a checklist for ideas ... and I have never intentionally referenced it in any way.
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2013-07-30, 03:44 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2011
Re: Word of Recall
Reminds me of every fighter vs wizard thread on the 3.5 boards.
The wizard always has every spell he needs to counter every tactic the fighter might use, no exceptions. You can never nail people down to a list of actual spells they prepared because that would impair their ability to plane shift the goal posts as a free action."I may be wrong, but Reddit is about reading everyone elses comment as if they are trying to attack your very soul, and then responding in a way to degrade them in some fashion." - Mangalz
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2013-07-30, 03:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2003
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- Philadelphia, PA
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Re: Word of Recall
Also:
This is player thinking, focusing on utility in an average adventure and not to the whole of Malack's life. He didn't learn grappling techniques as a combat option, he learned grappling techniques so his food wouldn't get away. Draining levels with a slam attack doesn't give a vampire sustenance; grappling and drinking blood does. You can level-drain a person all the way down to dead and you'll still be hungry. So this wasn't a crazy-paranoid defensive technique, it's a hunting aid. If it also had utility in combat, well, bonus.Rich Burlew
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2013-07-30, 04:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2004
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Re: Word of Recall
I am particularly fond of the elaborate over-planning around Contingency. When the villain wins, they will earn the honor of being the last to be hunted down and ritually butchered to dark gods, secure in their knowledge they could have saved the world if only they were not so eager to abandon their friends at the first whiff of danger.
I owe Peelee 5 Quatloos. But I am going double or nothing that Durkon will be casting 8th level spells at the big finale.
I bet Goblin_Priest 5 quatloos that Xykon does not know RC has the phylactery at this point in the tale (#1139).
Using my Bardic skills I see the fate of Belkar...so close!
Using my Bardic skills I see the fate of goblinkind!
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2013-07-30, 04:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
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Re: Word of Recall
The comic in which Durkon was drained from all his blood showed this to quite ugly effect. Really, although just being a stick figure comic, i felt disgusted by it more than I have with most vampire movies I saw.
The combination of a bloodsucking vampire and a grappling constrictor snake is a vicious invention. I wonder why no one thought of that before. The image was thouroughly disturbing, especially for someone like me to whom it came to a surprise that Malack didn't have feet.
Game mechanics did not cross my mind in the slightest when I read that comic. Negative energy bla bla bla.....the poor guy was strangled by a friggin blood sucking vampire snake! If somehow game mechanics do not support this being a deadly and dangerous horror, then the game mechanics are wrong, simple as that
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2013-07-30, 04:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Annapolis, Maryland
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2013-07-30, 04:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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Re: Word of Recall
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)
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2013-07-30, 04:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Birmingham, AL
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2013-07-30, 04:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
Re: Word of Recall
I think they need a balanced diet of both blood and energy.
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2013-07-30, 04:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2013
Re: Word of Recall
I recall watching one of those old nature programs, which showed a bunch of tourists hunkered down nervously in an armor-plated car watching a pride of lions lounging in the sun, while not 10 feet away, a herd of zebra were blithely munching the grass and drinking from the river.
What were those zebra thinking, sauntering so nonchalantly close to snarling-death?
They were relying on their strength and numbers and speed to escape any lions who might attack them. Because a paranoid zebra that stays far away from lions all the time is a zebra that doesn't get to eat or drink and starves. It's a different calculus for the humans who know that they have a warm meal waiting for them back at the safari lodge cafeteria.
In the real world there is always a balance that must be struck, between being safe and achieving one's goals, even for something as simple as taking a drink. Resources are limited. That which is spent to one end cannot be spent for another. So choices must be made. And those choices must be made with incomplete knowledge.
So it is with strategy and optimization. Gamers have an advantage. They can research the rules before rolling their character, read up on the campaign setting before choosing their spells. Talk to other gamers about best methods or optimizing, and use the internet to take advantage of the collective wisdom of tens of thousands of other gamers.
Characters in a fictional setting don't always have that wide a range of options. They have a backstory, a life, a closet's worth of historical contingencies that can give them weaknesses, blind-spots, predictable habits. These things affect the choices of fictional characters in a way that they would not for gamers.
When it comes right down to it, spell slots are a limited resource. Choices must be made on what to use them for. A balance must be struck.
A standard action, too, is a limited resource. For any choice you can make with it, there is the opportunity cost of what you do not do with it.
So Malack made his choices. He considered the balance between precaution and utility, and he chose his spells.
And at the end, he chose again. The most primal choice of all. One standard action. Fight or Flight?
He chose.... poorly.Last edited by Amphiox; 2013-07-30 at 04:58 PM.
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2013-07-30, 04:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2003
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- Philadelphia, PA
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Re: Word of Recall
Hit points =/= sustenance in D&D. You can be at full hit points but if you don't eat you will eventually starve.
But even without that aspect, it would fly in the face of every piece of vampire fiction ever written if a vampire could live by just punching someone once in a while. At that point, is that even really a vampire anymore?
I am now picturing the Vampire Health Council putting out food group infographics that show new vampires how to stay fit.Rich Burlew
Now Available: 2023 OOTS Holiday Ornament plus a big pile of new t-shirt designs (that you can also get on mugs and stuff)!
~~You can also support The Order of the Stick and the GITP forum at Patreon.~~
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2013-07-30, 04:59 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2008
Re: Word of Recall
Remember too, that WoR is only a must-have if there are no more pressing demands on a Cleric's spell slots. While many of us who have played a pen and paper cleric find it hard to imagine what could possibly matter more than our own survival and viewing WoR as the best way to ensure it, it may be worth considering also that Malack's own assesment of the situation may have caused him to prioritize other spells to that exact same end.
The way I read it, there are only three very specific situations in which WoR makes the difference between life and death for Malack:
1) he finds himself in a situation where staking is imminent, and for some reason he can't most form, e.g. someone has tagged him with Stability of Form beforehand.
2) He is immersed in water for 3 rounds and finds himself unable to escape in any way, shape or form for those three rounds.
3) He is caught in the sunlight with no available shelter that he can reach.
Every other threatening situation his party faces doesn't actually threaten his existence, only the success of the mission. Furthermore, all three of those situations are exceedingly niche. Being submerged for an extended period of time in running water is of exceedingly low probability in a desert.
Stability of Form is equally countered by Greater Dispelling, which has the added bonus of being far more multipurpose than WoR and provides the tactically more useful option of allowing him to stay in the fight and potentially secure victory for his party, whereas WoRing out at best provides his party an "at least we didn't wipe" defeat (okay for a routine dungeon crawl, less so in a high stakes play for a gate). Furthermore, Dimesional Anchor, at least as likely to crop up as SoF, negates WoR as well as other teleportation available to the party. In that case, WoR is objectively less useful than Greater Dispelling.
For case number three, Malack already prepared more than adequate defenses for what he foresaw might happen on this front. Remember, we need to analyze what he knew when he prepared his spells. In those circumstances two castings of Protection from Sunlight provide a redundant countermeasure. He has his staff on top of that for an extra layer of redundancy. He Was prepared, as he saw it.
Spending spell slots to counter increasingly remote scenarios ultimately would have limited his ability to be useful in winning the play for the gate. Again, WoR may have been reasonable if his only aim was to make sure nobody in his party died on this mission, but that's not what they were there for. In this light, Malack's spell choices are not only reasonable, they are arguably optimal for the situation he thought he would be facing. That it turns out not to have been what he needed does not mean he did not make a sensible, reasonable, and efficient set of choices for his spells. What brought him down was not poor spell selection, it was a the presence of three unforeseen factors that he could have survived on their own (the fight with Durkon, the Pyramid blowing up, and Nale's good timing on the betrayal). This isn't something that we should view as a momentary lapse in Malack's judgement, but rather a key and critical weakness of spell-preparing classes: the potential for getting royally buggered by the unforseen.
As an aside, a guess at Malack's spell slots, assuming he had at least one heal, and viewing what he has already cast. Also assuming he is a level 12 cleric with a wis score between 22 and 29 (30 is almost certainly an unreasonable score, and 22 should be reasonably obtainable, so I feel this range is fairly safe), leaving him with 4 level 6th slots:
1: Greater Dispelling (used)
2: Heal (presumed too "core" a spell for the party cleric to neglect)
3:????
Domain: Harm (most generous placement of his used harm spell)
While it is possible he could have prepared a WoR in slot 3, there are other viable choices for him. A second greater dispelling, for example, knowing that the Draketooth family likely contains a fair few casters, or a second heal under the worry that 120 HP worth of heal may not be enough, especially if Tarquin decides to "optimize for cool" with his tactical choices. Proper Spell (and feat and skill) selection depends on picking the tools that are most likely to be the most helpful in achieving your objective. Usually, spending character resources planning for a very unlikely scenario when doing so costs you the ability to do something that is more likely to be more useful is actually a poor choice.
Given Malack's long term plans, the success of the mission with Tarquin was a goal worth pursuing to the point where simply avoiding a wipe was not a sufficient strategic goal. They are (or were) playing to win here. Malack may also have considered being prepared to keep Tarquin fighting effectively significantly more important to what they needed to accomplish than guarding against a highly remote possibility (losing all access to protection from sunlight, getting dispelled, and being deprived of shelter), especially as WoR isn't a uncounterable by any means.
It's one thing to prepare for likely or conceivable circumstances, which Malack did. It's another to prepare for an exceedingly remote circumstance that will only happen, not just when one thing unexpected happens, but when a perfect storm of unforseen things happens, while hobbling yourself in other areas you need to cover. Nale managed to take advantage of an opportunity to create that perfect storm. That secured him the kill.
Of course, Elan would have told Malack to take WoR, because that one in a million gap in his contingencies is guaranteed to be his downfall if he's not careful.Last edited by Scurvy Cur; 2013-07-30 at 05:05 PM.
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2013-07-30, 05:01 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2009
Re: Word of Recall
I'll point out that there's a difference between delivering the touch attack spell (which is certainly an attack action) and casting the touch attack spell (which just appears to be a standard action as written). That is, you cast the spell and then attack. You also havbe the option of casting the spell and not attacking immediately, so the casting of the spell by definition can't be said to be an attack action.
Still, Rich explained in the discussion thread why it went the way it did, and nothing trumps the most important rule of all: It's cool!
I'll miss Malack though. I was looking forward to seeing interaction between him and a free-willed Durkon when he set him free."That's a horrible idea! What time?"
T-Shirt given to me by a good friend.. "in fairness, I was unsupervised at the time".
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2013-07-30, 05:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2007
Re: Word of Recall
Now I kind of want to write a story about punchpires.
Originally Posted by The Giant
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2013-07-30, 05:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2007
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2013-07-30, 05:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2012
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2013-07-30, 05:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Word of Recall
Don't forget, Malack may have had Yuan-ti powers he could use to escape or attack with. Then again, Malack never used deeper darkness. Then again darkness spells don't work in direct sunlight. So...
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2013-07-30, 06:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Word of Recall
#3 = Quickened Inflict Moderate.
It is the killing stroke after Harm, or a quick bit of healing. We saw this employed in his fight against Nale. While that does not prove he prepared such a spell again, Malack being Malack, it is a pretty good bet that his ways vary little day to day.I owe Peelee 5 Quatloos. But I am going double or nothing that Durkon will be casting 8th level spells at the big finale.
I bet Goblin_Priest 5 quatloos that Xykon does not know RC has the phylactery at this point in the tale (#1139).
Using my Bardic skills I see the fate of Belkar...so close!
Using my Bardic skills I see the fate of goblinkind!
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2013-07-30, 06:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2008
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Re: Word of Recall
.
-.____________________
./___________________()-------Ron Miel
|...___________________--------sits down
|..| |_________________()-------and starts
|..|/__________________--------singing
| ___________________()-------about gold
.
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2013-07-30, 06:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Word of Recall
Last edited by Math_Mage; 2013-07-30 at 06:22 PM.
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2013-07-30, 06:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2012
Re: Word of Recall
A son that your own daughter is telling you is a good person she's known for years. He is so paranoid about the conspiracy that he refuses to believe the only person telling the truth. The hints of the conspiracy are that his brother is keeping him in the prison by tipping off the guards, and his brother is the one he's listening to.
His paranoia is blinding him to the facts.
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2013-07-30, 06:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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Re: Word of Recall
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)
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2013-07-30, 06:48 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2004