Hell or annihilation

[Conradine]

Let me quote:

Why do they do it?

One of the mysteries of the multiverse is why any person in her right mind would choose a lawful evil alignment and devil worship. Who wants to go to Baator and suffer horrific torments, only to be boiled down into expendable energy and used to spawn a pathetic, mindless lemure?

First of all, few inhabitants of a D&D world, even devil cultists, have access to accurate information about the afterlife. Most lawful evil characters envision the Nine Hells as a place much like the everyday world, except with higher, sharper mountains and a touch more brimstone in the air. One might have heard that souls are tormented there, but she assumes that her own special relationship with her local devils will somehow exempt her from such treatment. After all, high-ranking minions of evil universally regard them as special and indispensable.

Characters might also be aware that lawful evil souls become devils after death, but not that their identities are painfully extracted and obliterated in the process. Arrogantly certain of their ability to scale the diabolical heirarchy, they reckon that they will quickly zoom to pit fiend status, retaining their earthly personalities and memories in the process. Neither evil kings nor fanatical cult leaders look at a lemure and imagine it to be their most likely eternal form.

Let's say the cosmology is the one of Fiendish Codex.

Let's say we take an Evil person who's about to die and who didn't know what hell exactly is before.
That person is showed through magic what it is and explained what it means: torture, loss of identity, then becoming a nearly mindless lemure.

Redemption is no more an option. Too late, and the evil person feels only fear, not remorse anyway.

The only loophole is that the evil person can have his soul destroyed ( by fueling a magical item creation or similar stuff ) instead.

So, given the choice, on 100 people, how many would choose to go to Hell and how many would choose to have their soul annihilated instead?

[Elkad]

Spawn as a lemure, and then advance to be a Pit Fiend! Or even a Duke of Hell!*

*Oh sure, it might take a billion years, but it could happen. And compared to eternity, a billion years is nothing.

[Conradine]

First, also one chance in a billion to survive long enough, since the mortality between devils in the long war against demons is quite high.

Second, even if you do, to become a pit fiend you must roast for 1001 days in a fire so hot that for most devils is an unbearable torture.

Third, even if you can manage that... it's not more you, your individuality is long gone.

Last, and worst, who can endure even the thought of unspeakable torture 'till mind is gone?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

This is practically what immortality was made for. And it's not exactly difficult in 3e. There are literally dozens of ways to get it, some of them quite cheap and easy.

Lawful they might be, but they're also Evil. If they're not cheating, they're doing it wrong.

[Conradine]

As Xykon said, "whatever necessary to avoid the Big Fire Below".

[Elkad]

First, also one chance in a billion to survive long enough, since the mortality between devils in the long war against demons is quite high.

Second, even if you do, to become a pit fiend you must roast for 1001 days in a fire so hot that for most devils is an unbearable torture.

Third, even if you can manage that... it's not more you, your individuality is long gone.

Last, and worst, who can endure even the thought of unspeakable torture 'till mind is gone?

[Segev]

Yeah, as described, this choice is "quick annihilation" or "slow, painful annihilation."

[Willie the Duck]

Third, even if you can manage that... it's not more you, your individuality is long gone.

This, I feel, is the crux of the decision point for the evil individual. Do they consider this thing, that happens to, in some way, be their 'soul,' but has nothing of them left in it, is still them (Y/N?). If not, both options are consigning themselves to oblivion. If so, than it will depend on whether the torture is so great that 'even nothingness is better than this.'

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I imagine that a lot of Evil creatures are nihilists, so oblivion would be preferable, if escaping that fate weren't an option. They may even prefer oblivion to eternal life without the horrors of the afterlife awaiting them (or even something resembling eternal paradise).

[unseenmage]

I mean basically this.

Folks arent great at comprehending odds.
Lottery ticket sales prove that every day.

[weckar]

This, I feel, is the crux of the decision point for the evil individual. Do they consider this thing, that happens to, in some way, be their 'soul,' but has nothing of them left in it, is still them (Y/N?). If not, both options are consigning themselves to oblivion. If so, than it will depend on whether the torture is so great that 'even nothingness is better than this.'

I agree. I think it very much depends on the person.

If they hold great affinity with devils and their kin, having their essence serving them after they themselves truly cease to exist may be an honor--and not an expensive one.

On the other hand; if they would be the type who would choose to repent if it were possible, or who sees their soul do more good in the hands of the earthly in the form of a magic item; that choice makes more sense.

[gkathellar]

Definitely oblivion. Baator is by far the worst deal in the Planes, for all of the reasons outlined above.

[the_david]

Honestly, I find the whole "you forget your previous life" kinda dull. I'd rule that you'd only remember your lawful evil acts when you go to hell. (Or appropriate alignment for whichever plane.) But even if most souls lose all their memories, some don't.

The deities may choose particular servants for specific tasks that may retain the knowledge of their previous selves. These exceptional petitioners retain the feats and skills they had in life, but are otherwise limited as for the petitioners of their plane.

Either way, imagine your players killed that villain early on. It doesn't even have to be a big villain, in fact it might have been just a cultist who didn't know what he was getting into. He might have had remorse over selling his soul.
He blames the PCs that killed him for his predicament. He rises through the ranks of hell as quickly as he can, so that one day he can take revenge on the one that killed him.

Now that's a villain.

[pabelfly]

I like Mario Puzo's mafia novels. Several of the characters in his various novels fully believe they are going to go to hell for their sins when they die, but they continue to act the way they do to ensure that their family will have a better life and better opportunities than what they had.

I could see something like that motivating a character. Even if immortality is off the table, you can gain quite a lot by being evil, and there's no reason you couldn't use those gains to help your family and your friends and gain something for yourself in the material world while you were at it.

[Venger]

100 choose to go to hell. it's dnd. they can be rezd trivially.

[Conradine]

I'll give my 2 cents.

I think the overwhelming majority of people would choose annihilation if presented with visual proof of horrific torture. Scorched flesh, burning alive over and over, limbs ripped and the like. Seriously, it would took a psychotic level of indifference to pain in order to face this or an equally morbid terror of oblivion. Some may take the slim chance of evolving as devils for various reasons, mostly pride or obsessive desire for revenge.

But I can say that a percentage around 80-85% would choose annihilation if faced with impending death.


If death is but a distant option, then I think a more than reasonable share of people would be able to delude themselves they're going to cheat the system somehow. Quite a lot, since the system can be cheated, although not so easily.

Undeath would suddendly become much more popular between the erudite evils.

[Cruiser1]

Let's say we take an Evil person who's about to die and who didn't know what hell exactly is before. That person is showed through magic what it is and explained what it means: torture, loss of identity, then becoming a nearly mindless lemure.

The problem is that many Evil people when presented with evidence will refuse to believe it. They'll think it's Celestial propaganda or high level illusions. Compare to how many in Real Life strongly reject any information that suggests their current beliefs might be wrong, and as result call it Fake News and such.

[tiercel]

Let's say the cosmology is the one of Fiendish Codex.

Let's say we take an Evil person who's about to die and who didn't know what hell exactly is before.
That person is showed through magic what it is and explained what it means: torture, loss of identity, then becoming a nearly mindless lemure.

Redemption is no more an option. Too late, and the evil person feels only fear, not remorse anyway.

The only loophole is that the evil person can have his soul destroyed ( by fueling a magical item creation or similar stuff ) instead.

So, given the choice, on 100 people, how many would choose to go to Hell and how many would choose to have their soul annihilated instead?

Well, let me finish the quote from the same source:

In a few rare cases, an exceptionally evil person might receive an automatic promotion to a higher devil form. Thus, a band of ad-venturers might conceivably slay a tyrant, only to see him return as a mighty devil. Such a transformation is rare, but it can happen.

The point being, as long as there is any reason to believe there really is a chance of “I get sexy new devil powers, as myself,” then someone with a truly diabolic mindset is likely to be arrogant enough to believe “....and I am that exception.”

[Mr Adventurer]

This is practically what immortality was made for. And it's not exactly difficult in 3e. There are literally dozens of ways to get it, some of them quite cheap and easy.

Dozens? I only know about five - what 24+ ways am I missing?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Dozens? I only know about five - what 24+ ways am I missing?

Depends on which ones you know.

[Mr Adventurer]

Depends on which ones you know.

Undeath
Elan
Green Star Adept
Polymorph shenanigans
Mind switch shenanigans
Excessive application of Steal Life
Is there a PrC about living on a mountain that gives you immortality? EDIT: found it, Cloud Anchorite in Frostburn

So, maybe six or seven it turns out.

[magic9mushroom]

Undeath
Elan
Green Star Adept
Polymorph shenanigans
Mind switch shenanigans
Excessive application of Steal Life
Is there a PrC about living on a mountain that gives you immortality? EDIT: found it, Cloud Anchorite in Frostburn

So, maybe six or seven it turns out.

If you want to inflate the count you can split up "undeath" into the various different ways (play pattycake with the various spawn-creating undead, research the various means of lichdom, arrange for one of the ways to die that tends to cause you to rise spontaneously), or even further into each specific species.

Most of these aren't safe enough to avoid Hell/the Abyss, though; removing old age and disease might give you a few hundred years, but you'll still die eventually from something. If you really want to live forever, lichdom and ghosthood are generally the best due to the respawn mechanic. Being a Vampire Lord is third place, although becoming one of those requires two instances of outright DM fiat (you have to rebel against your sire, which is straight-up impossible according to the rules; then, one of your own spawn has to likewise rebel against you).

EDIT: another means of immortality is godhood, although obtaining this is difficult and you can still be killed (dead gods don't appear to get tortured in Hell, though, so... mission accomplished?).

[NichG]

Undeath
Elan
Green Star Adept
Polymorph shenanigans
Mind switch shenanigans
Excessive application of Steal Life
Is there a PrC about living on a mountain that gives you immortality? EDIT: found it, Cloud Anchorite in Frostburn

So, maybe six or seven it turns out.

Periodically have yourself Reincarnated. Spend your days living on the Astral plane. Forced Dream psicrystal shenanigans (keep reliving the same 30 years like Groundhog Day). Get yourself soul-trapped (unclear if this works, but the text says that it traps the target 'indefinitely' which might suggest that effectively time doesn't pass for you in this state). Savage Species rituals to change your race into something effectively immortal (some form of full Outsider, for example).

Actually, to the original question, changing your race directly to an Outsider via that ritual is probably the best afterlife-dodge. Even if you're just making yourself into a lemure because that's all you can afford, you'd at least be able to avoid having your persona stripped away by Lethe and would be able to inject yourself into the afterlife at the location of your choosing (say, Sigil...). And as an Outsider, if you die, you don't leave a soul; but at the same time, there are still spells that can bring you back if that happens. Honestly, this is a reasonable idea even for Good-aligned characters, since even Good-aligned souls get turned into petitioners, reset to level 1, and (if they don't get promoted to Outsider) eventually merge with the plane they end up in.

Another option would be to make sure you get killed by a Thinaun weapon.

Still, if you're caught without any cheats up your sleeve, escape clauses, or allies left in power, definitely oblivion. It's unlikely someone will just randomly choose to rez you on a whim. Evil is basically a bet that cosmic rules only apply because people accept them without a fight - if you aren't intending to cheat, you're doing it wrong.

[Mr Adventurer]

If you want to inflate the count you can split up "undeath" into the various different ways (play pattycake with the various spawn-creating undead, research the various means of lichdom, arrange for one of the ways to die that tends to cause you to rise spontaneously), or even further into each specific species.

Nah, that would be disingenuous I think. We're talking about ways after all, not specific action chains, I reckon.

Most of these aren't safe enough to avoid Hell/the Abyss, though; removing old age and disease might give you a few hundred years, but you'll still die eventually from something. If you really want to live forever, lichdom and ghosthood are generally the best due to the respawn mechanic. Being a Vampire Lord is third place, although becoming one of those requires two instances of outright DM fiat (you have to rebel against your sire, which is straight-up impossible according to the rules; then, one of your own spawn has to likewise rebel against you).

A separate and very good point.

Periodically have yourself Reincarnated. Spend your days living on the Astral plane. Forced Dream psicrystal shenanigans (keep reliving the same 30 years like Groundhog Day). Get yourself soul-trapped (unclear if this works, but the text says that it traps the target 'indefinitely' which might suggest that effectively time doesn't pass for you in this state). Savage Species rituals to change your race into something effectively immortal (some form of full Outsider, for example).

Missed Reincarnation, true.

Astral Plane feels like one of those "technically works" things - but you'd need to be able to Astral Project to be able to do much else.

Not familiar with Forced Dream shenanigans but seems like a bit of a half-life if you can't perceive or react to external stimulus.

Soul-trapping is definitely not a good way to live!

Savage Species is 3.0 material so isn't used at my tables, at least...

I accidentally clipped it but Thinaun holds your soul but seems super precarious!

[Conradine]

I would say...


01-40: "annihilation please"
40-60: "no, I'm not going to die now! There must be a cure, a way to stay alive another year or two!"
60-80: "no, this must be false. I don't believe Hell is so bad."
80-90: "I was so cool and evil in life, I'm sure I'll get promoted immediately and skip the torture"
90-95: " I was really evil, I can take the torture then I0ll get promoted soon and I'll find a way to recover my memories"
95-00: "I'll take it like a man! Bring it on, Hell!"

[NichG]

Missed Reincarnation, true.

Astral Plane feels like one of those "technically works" things - but you'd need to be able to Astral Project to be able to do much else.

I mean, if the alternatives are oblivion, being tortured into oblivion, or living a Good life and then still getting oblivion...

Generally speaking, interacting with the world as an unrepentantly Evil character is just a good way to get a hero squad on your case, and they can be creative with ways to end you. Hanging out on the Astral and keeping to yourself is generally going to be a safer retirement plan. If you really want to live dangerously, you can always get involved with the Githyanki.

Not familiar with Forced Dream shenanigans but seems like a bit of a half-life if you can't perceive or react to external stimulus.

The trick here is that you have your psicrystal manifest it, and iirc there's part of the trick where you use Time Hop and some contingencies cued to 'returning to the timestream' to stretch it's turn across hours or days. Then if the psicrystal sees that things have gone badly, it can reset time to the start of that period. So you're fully aware and functional, though I guess you don't remember alternate loops except for whatever indirect experiences you can stash in your psicrystal. I thought there was a way to get longer than a day, but it looks like that might be tricky (Use quintessence or Temporal Stasis or something? Dunno if that would work).

Soul-trapping is definitely not a good way to live!

Again, if your alternatives are oblivion and torture to oblivion...

Savage Species is 3.0 material so isn't used at my tables, at least...

I accidentally clipped it but Thinaun holds your soul but seems super precarious!

Yeah, you definitely want to make sure that weapon doesn't get carted around into any battles after it's absorbed you. I've seen reference to a gimmick where you capture with a Thinaun weapon, then do a permanent PaO to change the material type - that post seemed to suggest they thought it would destroy the soul, but I don't know if there's anything that says that a Thinaun object has to remain Thinaun to continue to hold onto the soul (though arguably you could say that this 'destroys' the original object).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Store your body on a timeless demiplane and astrally project yourself (preferably via a nightmare that has been rendered into a loyal ally through one of various means.

Transplant an oak tree to the astral plane or another timeless plane (preferably one that's timeless with regards to magic, too) and take an acorn of far travel everywhere you go.

Build yourself a stronghold on a timeless plane, then live there nigh-on forever.

Be a Dragonwrought kobold and take levels in dragon ascendant for DvR 0.

Pun-Pun your way to immortality.

Be an illithid. Take illithid savant. Eat something immortal. I favor the tarrasque's regeneration for this. (Get spellblade poison rings of wish and miracle for immunities to those spells.)

Be an elan monk, druid, or other class with timeless body (for eternal youth), although if you don't care about being old forever, just elan is fine.

Be a warforged.

Be a neraph.

Be a necropolitan.

Be a ghost.

Be a lich.

Be a vampire.

Be a chain-spawned undead and take emancipated spawn.

BoVD and other sources have expanded rules for what can be done with bestow curse and its greater variant. One of those uses is to increase the target's age category by one. Note that those spells explicitly allow you to inflict effects of similar power, and reducing one's age category is just as powerful as increasing it. This means you can periodically reduce your age category by 1 whenever you feel like being younger.

Clone explicitly de-ages you if it's been awhile since you cast it. Just make sure you get a thought bottle to store your XP level before you make use of it.

The kissed by the ages spell makes you immortal.

The Wedded to History feat...might do it? My magic 8 ball says it's unclear.

Be a druid. Make a pact with a cabal of druids. Any time one of you dies, the others cast reincarnate on you. If you start getting too old, sacrificially in/exhume yourself and proceed to be reincarnated. Also, contingency reincarnate, if you have access to a wizard but no druid cabal. Or Extra Spell (Contingency) [or reincarnate, if you have contingency natively].

Mind switch/murder. Alternatively, true mind switch (but this is vastly more costly). If you have a psicrystal, manifest metamorphosis on it to something not immune to [mind-affecting] effects, then mind switch/true mind switch on it. You're now an immortal construct.

Magic jar shenanigans, along with things like trap the soul and soul bind. Then preserve your body so it's well-protected. Or just polymorph any object a statue into a real boy and magic jar that.

Actually, polymorph any object itself has numerous uses for this, if used directly.

A psychoactive skin of proteus allows you to constantly be under the effects of metamorphosis, which defaults you to a young adult body (or, if you're transforming into a creature with age categories, like a dragon, whichever age category you choose). You could get a skin, or better yet, have one perma-installed. If you're worried about dispelling or antimagic fields, have it made into a nonmagical Device, from Ravenloft: Legacy of the Blood, with a built-in battery. Either way, renew it at least every few years so you're always youthful. Even if the DM says this doesn't usually work, you can turn into a younger dragon, which explicitly is a specific age.

Buy tons of bonus feats and use some of them for the epic feat Extended Life Span. (Definitely not my preferred choice, but it's an option.)

Take levels in vermin lord and become a hivemind. Note that you can cheat your way into hiveminding a bunch of low-HD humanoids or other critters together by casting aspect of the wolf on them to count as the animal type. Give 'em all acorns of far travel from an astral bonsai oak tree so they all count as being in one 5' space. Then hivemind 'em. You're now a hivemind with a bunch of (potentially much younger and immortal) bodies, and if your old body dies, you should live on as the hivemind.

Isn't there a magical plant that, if eaten, grants immortality? Minor creation should make one for you. Otherwise, I believe there's a flower that grants a wish in Faerun you can do this with.

There are a lot more, but I've got limited time to recount them, and even I don't know them all, partly because there are so damned many of them.

That's also not the only way to get out of being hellbound. If all else fails, a helm of opposite alignment (or other means of changing your alignment to non-Evil) will turn you Good. Then spend time making up for your misdeeds so you go to a Goodly plane when you die, cheating the fiends out of their prize.

[Conradine]

Isn't there a magical plant that, if eaten, grants immortality? Minor creation should make one for you.

Never heard of that one - and I made lots research about immortality ( both in game and in real life ).

[Barastur]

Let me quote:

Let's say the cosmology is the one of Fiendish Codex.

Let's say we take an Evil person who's about to die and who didn't know what hell exactly is before.
That person is showed through magic what it is and explained what it means: torture, loss of identity, then becoming a nearly mindless lemure.

Redemption is no more an option. Too late, and the evil person feels only fear, not remorse anyway.

The only loophole is that the evil person can have his soul destroyed ( by fueling a magical item creation or similar stuff ) instead.

So, given the choice, on 100 people, how many would choose to go to Hell and how many would choose to have their soul annihilated instead?

That stuff is not cheap and away from the wildest dreams of most ordinary folk.

Also they don't care.

Most people irl have the potential of having a fit and healthy body but they don't care because it's long term while the short term pleasures are better and more interesting. Same deal here.

Also I'm not sure how wide spread information about other planes is in most D&D setting. I don't think every peasant ans commoner has a copy of the guide of the planes. Most people probably can't even read.

I like Mario Puzo's mafia novels. Several of the characters in his various novels fully believe they are going to go to hell for their sins when they die, but they continue to act the way they do to ensure that their family will have a better life and better opportunities than what they had.

I could see something like that motivating a character. Even if immortality is off the table, you can gain quite a lot by being evil, and there's no reason you couldn't use those gains to help your family and your friends and gain something for yourself in the material world while you were at it.

That's actually very cool.

I'll give my 2 cents.

I think the overwhelming majority of people would choose annihilation if presented with visual proof of horrific torture. Scorched flesh, burning alive over and over, limbs ripped and the like. Seriously, it would took a psychotic level of indifference to pain in order to face this or an equally morbid terror of oblivion. Some may take the slim chance of evolving as devils for various reasons, mostly pride or obsessive desire for revenge.

But I can say that a percentage around 80-85% would choose annihilation if faced with impending death.


If death is but a distant option, then I think a more than reasonable share of people would be able to delude themselves they're going to cheat the system somehow. Quite a lot, since the system can be cheated, although not so easily.

Undeath would suddendly become much more popular between the erudite evils.

If hell is eternal. Eh big deal, humans are highly adaptable creatures, you CAN get used to pain. After 100 years of boiling cauldrons and hot iron spokes in your skin that **** gets dull.

People are afraid of that stuff IRL because of death and the uncertainty of death. If death is not the end why be sacred of it?

That's why the idea of hell makes no sense at all. Like wtf? If the population of doomed souls is much larger and numerous than the devils why they don't revolt? Even weak larvae can be a powerful if they got the numbers.

If hell is not eternal and you can have a second death and reincarnate, well who cares? If you were evil enough to be condemned to hell you are more then used to hellish environments. So this is only a temporary set back.

The point being, as long as there is any reason to believe there really is a chance of “I get sexy new devil powers, as myself,” then someone with a truly diabolic mindset is likely to be arrogant enough to believe “....and I am that exception.”

That's too true.

Undeath
Elan
Green Star Adept
Polymorph shenanigans
Mind switch shenanigans
Excessive application of Steal Life
Is there a PrC about living on a mountain that gives you immortality? EDIT: found it, Cloud Anchorite in Frostburn

So, maybe six or seven it turns out.

-Warlock pact of the undying.
-Living in the astral plane since it has no time.
-A 14th level transmuter can restore 3d10 years to anyone at no cost.
-Oath of the Ancients paladin stops aging at 15th level.

Never heard of that one - and I made lots research about immortality ( both in game and in real life ).

Are you sure? Giving your avatar and signature.

[Segev]

On the topic of exceptions being promoted instantly to a powerful devil-form, I tend to assume that this is related to the HD, class levels, and possible patronage of higher-powered Entities who receive you. So that evil tyrant is most likely to return as a Horned Devil or the like if he was a reasonably high-level character when he was slain. But even a petty level 1 Aristocrat might get that promotion if he'd really, really pleased his archdevil patron and Mammon decided to directly transform him into a higher-order Devil by infusing the soul with hellish power once Mammon received it.

I have my own complicated theories on how more powerful outsiders form from lesser ones, but that's for another thread.