Mulan (2020)

[Keltest]

Runs away from her responsibility to... do what exactly? Be a brood mare with no agency of her own?

I'm going to hazard a guess that your definition of "improvement" is pretty far south of mine.

Being dutiful even when you dislike that duty is generally considered to be a positive trait. The responsibility itself sucks, and running away would not strictly be unreasonable (or at least not a negative thing), but running to the army to avoid getting married without the bit about filling in for her father dramatically changes the tone of the action. Suddenly it isn't brave or noble, its spiteful.

[Dienekes]

Being dutiful even when you dislike that duty is generally considered to be a positive trait. The responsibility itself sucks, and running away would not strictly be unreasonable (or at least not a negative thing), but running to the army to avoid getting married without the bit about filling in for her father dramatically changes the tone of the action. Suddenly it isn't brave or noble, its spiteful.

That’s a fair bit harsher than necessary. It’s a selfish motivation, sure. But it’s still a ways away from spite. I also think we might be getting into a problem about finding the line. Like most seemingly good traits an excess without reflection can be horrible. Dutifully following orders can lead to tragedy of the highest order.

But at the same time ignoring it to follow your desires can lead to the same place.

The question comes down to context. And while in an historically accurate or gritty period piece running away from a match can lead to wars. Nothing in this movie seems gritty or historically accurate. So it comes down to what the message is for today’s audience. And to me abandoning a match to fight in a war means “It’s ok to look after you’re own happiness and not just accept your lot in life. So long as you still serve a purpose to society at large.”

And yeah. I have a hard time disagreeing with that one. It’d be one thing if she ran off to become a bandit or a hippie. But she doesn’t. She defends her home.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I mean, Hollywood is filled with rom-coms about leaving behind the guy you're "supposed" to marry to pursue the one you actually love, so....

[Honest Tiefling]

I think I agree with Keltest, that Mulan trying to save her father from death was noble, and changing that does change the character. The first incarnation seemed okay with the idea of an arrange marriage at first, she was just terrible at it.

The line 'Tis my duty...To Fight...' seems to be at least trying to establish that while she might reject her family's plan for her, she is still protective and going to fight for others. A different character, but maybe not a spiteful one.

We also have to remember the popularity of Frozen, and the message that you shouldn't hide from your own emotions nor your own uniqueness else you'll kill thousands.

Also, holy ***, that's Keiko O'Brien! But wait...She's the mother. Mulan is more driven to fight in this movie. Oh dear, she's going to die, isn't she?

[Psyren]

Being dutiful even when you dislike that duty is generally considered to be a positive trait. The responsibility itself sucks, and running away would not strictly be unreasonable (or at least not a negative thing), but running to the army to avoid getting married without the bit about filling in for her father dramatically changes the tone of the action. Suddenly it isn't brave or noble, its spiteful.

Like I said, very far south. And some things SHOULD be spited.

[Brother Oni]

Runs away from her responsibility to... do what exactly? Be a brood mare with no agency of her own?

In one of the Mulan re-makes mentioned earlier (the 17th Century Sui Tang Romance), Mulan is on the losing side of the war and returns home to find her father has died and her mother has remarried. To add insult to injury, she's ordered to become a concubine of the Khan of the new Emperor's Turkic allies.

Rather than submit to that humiliation, she commits suicide instead. It's noted that 'even a Chinese woman would prefer death by her own hand than serving a foreign ruler', a sentiment popular at the time.

The line 'Tis my duty...To Fight...' seems to be at least trying to establish that while she might reject her family's plan for her, she is still protective and going to fight for others. A different character, but maybe not a spiteful one.

While I agree it's not spiteful, joining the army while there's an active war on, plus that line of "'Tis my duty... to fight", implies that Mulan just wants to kill people, which is a very different motivation from wanting to save her crippled father.

Interestingly enough, the current Disney version where she joins up to save her father being called up, is the only version where her motivations could be considered pure; like this version implied by the trailer, in the timeframe of the original (Northern Wei, 4th to 6th Century) Father Hua would have been sent off to do his national service in a more fitting manner, so Mulan joining the army means she just wants to fight.

[Traab]

I think "tis my duty... to fight" is basically her going, "I have two duties right now that honor says I should do. I can only choose one, so which shall it be? Honor my family by marrying as I am told? Or protecting my family by going to war instead of my father? Tis my duty... to fight."

[Psyren]

In one of the Mulan re-makes mentioned earlier (the 17th Century Sui Tang Romance), Mulan is on the losing side of the war and returns home to find her father has died and her mother has remarried. To add insult to injury, she's ordered to become a concubine of the Khan of the new Emperor's Turkic allies.

Rather than submit to that humiliation, she commits suicide instead. It's noted that 'even a Chinese woman would prefer death by her own hand than serving a foreign ruler', a sentiment popular at the time.

Fascinating, but I'm not seeing any relation between this and anything I wrote. Furthermore, I highly doubt Disney is going this route. Call it a hunch.

While I agree it's not spiteful, joining the army while there's an active war on, plus that line of "'Tis my duty... to fight", implies that Mulan just wants to kill people, which is a very different motivation from wanting to save her crippled father.

Interestingly enough, the current Disney version where she joins up to save her father being called up, is the only version where her motivations could be considered pure; like this version implied by the trailer, in the timeframe of the original (Northern Wei, 4th to 6th Century) Father Hua would have been sent off to do his national service in a more fitting manner, so Mulan joining the army means she just wants to fight.

I remember Nostalgia Chick pointed out this flaw in the original, that her father would be far more likely to be conscripted as an officer or an adjutant than an actual combatant and thus not in imminent danger. Though of course, everyone in an army is in some level of risk, so her going could still be in opposition to that.

[Traab]

Fascinating, but I'm not seeing any relation between this and anything I wrote. Furthermore, I highly doubt Disney is going this route. Call it a hunch.



I remember Nostalgia Chick pointed out this flaw in the original, that her father would be far more likely to be conscripted as an officer or an adjutant than an actual combatant and thus not in imminent danger. Though of course, everyone in an army is in some level of risk, so her going could still be in opposition to that.

Of course its a disney movie aimed primarily at kids, though with enough in it for the parents to enjoy, so maybe expecting children to know about ancient chinese military practices is a bit unreasonable. So leaving it as simple as, "Its a military draft, one soldier from each family or dishonor on your house!" gives them a threat they can understand that mulan can handle by joining the military.

[Dienekes]

Fascinating, but I'm not seeing any relation between this and anything I wrote. Furthermore, I highly doubt Disney is going this route. Call it a hunch.



I remember Nostalgia Chick pointed out this flaw in the original, that her father would be far more likely to be conscripted as an officer or an adjutant than an actual combatant and thus not in imminent danger. Though of course, everyone in an army is in some level of risk, so her going could still be in opposition to that.

Do we even have records of Northern Wei conscription intricacies? I mean as far as I can tell Mulan’s dad is a farmer wealthy enough for a big plot of land but not wealthy enough to have people to work the land for him. The bigger surprise to me is that people know who he is at all.

[Brother Oni]

Fascinating, but I'm not seeing any relation between this and anything I wrote. Furthermore, I highly doubt Disney is going this route. Call it a hunch.

Sorry, I got a bit long winded. I meant to say that in one of the versions of the story, Mulan's fate was to end up as a 'broodmare' with no agency. She commits suicide instead.

I remember Nostalgia Chick pointed out this flaw in the original, that her father would be far more likely to be conscripted as an officer or an adjutant than an actual combatant and thus not in imminent danger. Though of course, everyone in an army is in some level of risk, so her going could still be in opposition to that.

Do we even have records of Northern Wei conscription intricacies? I mean as far as I can tell Mulan’s dad is a farmer wealthy enough for a big plot of land but not wealthy enough to have people to work the land for him. The bigger surprise to me is that people know who he is at all.

We do actually, thanks to the semi-fabled Chinese bureaucracy.

The system in use at the time was the chaiyi fa or 'draft service system' or more specifically, the lijia variant. This was administered at the local level since the central government pretty much failed to manage anything below the county level.

Spoiler: Lijia system

Show

Villages were assigned as groups of households, normally as a unit of 110 households, called a li.

Each li was further sub-divided into 11 units of 10 households, called a jia, based on their tax brackets (high, middle or low).

The richest jia was assigned by the census taker to be the 'administrative' jia for the decade, with each household in that jia taking up the role of head of the li for a year long shift.

The other 10 jia likewise took up the role of the 'levy labour unit', with a household in each jia doing a year long shift. The households on duty were not obligated to pay taxes their year on shift and the other households paid taxes, but didn't have to render service.

Some of the government work the jia could be expected to do ranged from doormen, guards, messengers, cooks, boatmen, prison guards, longshoremen, clerical assistants, grooms, canal workers, etc.

So under the lijia system, Father Hua's summons to service wouldn't be from some faceless central government bureaucrat, but from someone in their local village, who would have known he had no sons and a dodgy leg and would have arranged him to go else where more suitable rather than a direct combat role.

It's worth noting that being in the military was not seen as a particularly honourable profession by the Han Chinese since war is viewed as a wasteful, destructive activity (there's a proverb which goes something like 'You don't waste good iron making nails, nor waste good men making soldiers')*. The landholding farmer class was placed as highest among the sub-official class, since they produce the foodstuffs that everybody needed to survive, so Mulan is technically taking a number of steps down by becoming a soldier.

*Actual Chinese foreign/military policy at the time was yiyi zhiyi, or 'hiring barbarians to fight other barbarians', but I'm heading into board forbidden territory now, plus it worked so well with the Mongols.

[Dienekes]

Sorry, I got a bit long winded. I meant to say that in one of the versions of the story, Mulan's fate was to end up as a 'broodmare' with no agency. She commits suicide instead.





We do actually, thanks to the semi-fabled Chinese bureaucracy.

The system in use at the time was the chaiyi fa or 'draft service system' or more specifically, the lijia variant. This was administered at the local level since the central government pretty much failed to manage anything below the county level.

Spoiler: Lijia system

Show

Villages were assigned as groups of households, normally as a unit of 110 households, called a li.

Each li was further sub-divided into 11 units of 10 households, called a jia, based on their tax brackets (high, middle or low).

The richest jia was assigned by the census taker to be the 'administrative' jia for the decade, with each household in that jia taking up the role of head of the li for a year long shift.

The other 10 jia likewise took up the role of the 'levy labour unit', with a household in each jia doing a year long shift. The households on duty were not obligated to pay taxes their year on shift and the other households paid taxes, but didn't have to render service.

Some of the government work the jia could be expected to do ranged from doormen, guards, messengers, cooks, boatmen, prison guards, longshoremen, clerical assistants, grooms, canal workers, etc.

So under the lijia system, Father Hua's summons to service wouldn't be from some faceless central government bureaucrat, but from someone in their local village, who would have known he had no sons and a dodgy leg and would have arranged him to go else where more suitable rather than a direct combat role.

It's worth noting that being in the military was not seen as a particularly honourable profession by the Han Chinese since war is viewed as a wasteful, destructive activity (there's a proverb which goes something like 'You don't waste good iron making nails, nor waste good men making soldiers')*. The landholding farmer class was placed as highest among the sub-official class, since they produce the foodstuffs that everybody needed to survive, so Mulan is technically taking a number of steps down by becoming a soldier.

*Actual Chinese foreign/military policy at the time was yiyi zhiyi, or 'hiring barbarians to fight other barbarians', but I'm heading into board forbidden territory now, plus it worked so well with the Mongols.

Fascinating, thank you!

So what I got from this is that even the basic legend of Mulan doesn't really work during the time period it's supposed to take place in.

Though I do find it odd, from my own knowledge of the Northern Wei (which is clearly less complete than yours) was that they gained hegemony over north China through very explicit conquest and strategic raiding of their neighbors. It seems very odd for a culture to so completely disassociate from their own keys to power while they are currently in the process of using them to gain dominance.

[The Glyphstone]

The 'official' story was written about a thousand years later, in addition to being heavily dramatized in its own right. So it's entirely unsurprising they got some stuff wrong.

[Maryring]

Count me as one of those for whom the trailer doesn't inspire much confidence. What I loved about the original Mulan was her intelligence and quick thinking being played up as the key to resolving the conflicts. She didn't save China by being the strongest warrior, but by being the smartest. And I don't think a Wuxia movie, for all the fun Wuxia combat may be, would keep that integral part of her character.

[Brother Oni]

Though I do find it odd, from my own knowledge of the Northern Wei (which is clearly less complete than yours) was that they gained hegemony over north China through very explicit conquest and strategic raiding of their neighbors. It seems very odd for a culture to so completely disassociate from their own keys to power while they are currently in the process of using them to gain dominance.

As I understand it, it's because as time progressed, the Northern Wei became more and more Han Chinese culturally. The Ballad of Mulan is set some time in the Northern Wei Dynasty - that's an approximately 150 year period, so it's not surprising that the culture changes, especially when viewed through the imperfect lens of a later dynasty (the earliest record of the story is from the 12th Century as Glyphstone mentioned).

[Psyren]

Sorry, I got a bit long winded. I meant to say that in one of the versions of the story, Mulan's fate was to end up as a 'broodmare' with no agency. She commits suicide instead.

Gotcha, I see the connection now. It's an interesting trivia footnote, but again, Disney is never ever going to go with this version so it's pretty safe to say it's irrelevant to the topic of the remake.

The 'official' story was written about a thousand years later, in addition to being heavily dramatized in its own right. So it's entirely unsurprising they got some stuff wrong.

This is a good point also - if they weren't even good at historical accuracy in history, should we really be getting hung up over it in a kid's movie?

[Traab]

Gotcha, I see the connection now. It's an interesting trivia footnote, but again, Disney is never ever going to go with this version so it's pretty safe to say it's irrelevant to the topic of the remake.



This is a good point also - if they weren't even good at historical accuracy in history, should we really be getting hung up over it in a kid's movie?

I wonder, does it just feel different because normally disney is gutting mythology or classic grimms fairy tales but this time its messing with actual historical facts?

[Honest Tiefling]

This is a good point also - if they weren't even good at historical accuracy in history, should we really be getting hung up over it in a kid's movie?

Yeeeeaaah, and keep in mind the movie at that time, HAD to appeal to America. I don't think foreign markets were as prominent back then, so the movie had to be understandable to the domestic one, most of which wouldn't have the internet or Brother Oni to clarify. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if most Chinese Americans at the time had no idea of ancient Chinese practices.

I think "tis my duty... to fight" is basically her going, "I have two duties right now that honor says I should do. I can only choose one, so which shall it be? Honor my family by marrying as I am told? Or protecting my family by going to war instead of my father? Tis my duty... to fight."

This is more what I meant by Mulan choosing to honor her family by fighting, not that she wants to go on a rampage. Through if she join to kill people I am so totally seeing this movie.

And let's be honest, through we might sympathize more with the earlier incarnation, very few of us are probably 10 year old girls. The earlier version balances duty and her own needs, but kids probably aren't going to interpret it that way. 'UUUUUGGGGGGHHHH, MOM I DON'T WANNA WEAR A DRESS. WHY DO I HAVE TO UUGGGGGGH SO MEAN'. When I was a kid I'd so totally go for a movie about a lady kicking all sorts of butt, duty be damned. Did kids like Mulan for being a dutiful daughter, or for killing the Hun leader in a sword fight? What kids take from a character and what adults do is probably very different.

[zimmerwald1915]

I wonder, does it just feel different because normally disney is gutting mythology or classic grimms fairy tales but this time its messing with actual historical facts?

Mythology and Grimm's fairy tales were often enough set in identifiable places and times, and often enough got things wrong about those places and times even in the first codified/written versions.

[Psyren]

I wonder, does it just feel different because normally disney is gutting mythology or classic grimms fairy tales but this time its messing with actual historical facts?

*belly-laughs in Pocahontas*

Did kids like Mulan for being a dutiful daughter, or for killing the Hun leader in a sword fight?

Well technically she didn't kill him at all. Like I said upthread, Mushu drove 80% of the plot.

While she could fight well enough to hold her own in the original, her true strength was her tactical mind, which they foreshadowed early on by having her intervene in a Go game in passing before the matchmaker scene.

[The Glyphstone]

And don't forget the pillar-climb in the training montage. She was the first one to beat that because she out-thought it, rather than brute-forced it.

[Traab]

Mythology and Grimm's fairy tales were often enough set in identifiable places and times, and often enough got things wrong about those places and times even in the first codified/written versions.

Yes, but they were still fictional stories that have gone through a dozen or so rewrites, not focusing on real authentic historical happenings. As far as I know, there has never been a mermaid who made a deal with a sea witch to become human and hit on some dude she just saw, so its not as big of a deal that in disneys version her feet arent constantly bleeding and it turns out she doesnt have a soul because historical accuracy doesnt come into this as there isnt some set time or place where the story happens.

However in mulan it DOES occur in a set time and place that had actual known rules and regulations that are being ignored and replaced for the benefit of the story so it likely feels more jarring to see even more details get changed. It may also be the common complaint of an expert seeing his or her field misrepresented. I HATED Disney Hercules because when it came out I was a MASSIVE fan of mythology of all types, but primarily greek at the time, so every single change they made to the story just ticked me off more and more. "Wait, what? Hercules is the son of both zeus and hera? Hera doesnt hate him? WHY IS PEGASUS HERE?!?!? Every single detail about his life story is different! GRAAAAAAAGGGHHHHH!!!!!!" I can understand making changes because the original hercules story was pretty freaking brutal at times, but they basically made up an entirely new character and called him hercules. So yeah, I was less than pleased and couldnt enjoy the movie at all because I just kept seeing how literally everything but his ability to punch stuff was wrong. So that may be the problem with mulan. If you are familiar with that aspect of chinese history, the story doesnt make sense. If you arent then it likely will only bother you because its different from the cartoon movie you probably saw as a kid. If you never saw the original it probably wont bother you at all because you dont already have an expectation of what it will be about.

Oh and psyren, I actually never watched that film so I forgot it existed.... yeah that was a little off... in every single aspect pretty much. They might as well have made the crew visiting the new world israeli just because they got everything else wrong anyways so at that point why not include some more impossibilities!

[zimmerwald1915]

*belly-laughs in Pocahontas*

Jeff Katzenberg knows what he did

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I mean, the various Mulan stories are all only loosely based on whatever the historical Mulan was like. If there even was such a historical figure.

[Brother Oni]

I mean, the various Mulan stories are all only loosely based on whatever the historical Mulan was like. If there even was such a historical figure.

Yup, there's fairly significant doubt that she was a real person at all and not something that grew out of a folk tale.

[Anonymouswizard]

I mean, the various Mulan stories are all only loosely based on whatever the historical Mulan was like. If there even was such a historical figure.

So you're implying Mulan is like King Arthur? Including the entire 'might not exist' part?

Cool, I can live with that.

[Dienekes]

*belly-laughs in Pocahontas*

Hah. If ever there was a topic Disney should have avoided with a 10 foot pole. How would one make a movie on her that doesn’t piss everyone off? There are three competing histories each of which place the blame of basically everything on a different group. Plus the following centuries of exploitation. It’s a landmine.

[Bartmanhomer]

I heard that the dragon Mushu won't be in this live action Mulan movie.

[t209]

I remember Nostalgia Chick pointed out this flaw in the original, that her father would be far more likely to be conscripted as an officer or an adjutant than an actual combatant and thus not in imminent danger. Though of course, everyone in an army is in some level of risk, so her going could still be in opposition to that.

Rewatching the scene again.
I think he really intend to serve in the frontline since
1. Approaching the bureaucrat without a cane.
2. Practicing swordfight before his leg injury catched up to him.

[Psyren]

Oh and psyren, I actually never watched that film so I forgot it existed.... yeah that was a little off... in every single aspect pretty much. They might as well have made the crew visiting the new world israeli just because they got everything else wrong anyways so at that point why not include some more impossibilities!

It was "a little off" like Chernobyl was a little gas leak
(3.6 Roentgen, not great, not terrible.)

Rewatching the scene again.
I think he really intend to serve in the frontline since
1. Approaching the bureaucrat without a cane.
2. Practicing swordfight before his leg injury catched up to him.

Yeah it's clear that he was expecting to be made infantry (i.e. his life being thrown away for honor's sake). It was incompetence on the military's part, not his.

I heard that the dragon Mushu won't be in this live action Mulan movie.

I don't think there's any way they could do that role properly in a modern, multinational take. Better to axe it.