Wait a minute, why did the ABD care that V killed her son?

[Oxenstierna]

I wouldn't really say it's "changed over time," so much as other classic versions of dragons have been brought in. You do know that classic Eastern mythology often has dragons as benevolent creatures, right?

Yes, when I mentioned godlike wish-granting characteristics I was thinking of 'Dragon Ball'. When I say changed over time, I was strictly thinking of the evolution of the 'Western' dragon. From serpent interchangeable in Virgil as serpens / draco (circa 70BC), to treasure hoarding and fire breathing in Beowulf (circa 1,000AD), to getting a certain intelligence and cunning as Smaug in 'the Hobbit' (1937). That's about 2,000 years of story telling. As far as I am aware none of this was particularly influenced by classic Eastern mythology, and the dragons in 'Dungeons and Dragons' clearly follow from the Tolkienesque fantasy world as treasure-guarding antagonists. I'm always interested in myths and legends though, so if there are some particular Eastern tales you feel have been brought into the modern 'post war' take on dragons I'm very happy to look at suggestions.

[zimmerwald1915]

Yes, when I mentioned godlike wish-granting characteristics I was thinking of 'Dragon Ball'. When I say changed over time, I was strictly thinking of the evolution of the 'Western' dragon. From serpent interchangeable in Virgil as serpens / draco (circa 70BC), to treasure hoarding and fire breathing in Beowulf (circa 1,000AD), to getting a certain intelligence and cunning as Smaug in 'the Hobbit' (1937). That's about 2,000 years of story telling. As far as I am aware none of this was particularly influenced by classic Eastern mythology, and the dragons in 'Dungeons and Dragons' clearly follow from the Tolkienesque fantasy world as treasure-guarding antagonists. I'm always interested in myths and legends though, so if there are some particular Eastern tales you feel have been brought into the modern 'post war' take on dragons I'm very happy to look at suggestions.

The Aeneid and Beowulf are only part of the same "Western" tradition in retrospect, after the latter had been constructed. No one in the tenth century would have thought a Germanic epic in the same tradition as a Latin one. The Hobbit is much more in Beowulf's vein, but that's only because Tolkien aped it.

[hroþila]

The Aeneid and Beowulf are only part of the same "Western" tradition in retrospect, after the latter had been constructed. No one in the tenth century would have thought a Germanic epic in the same tradition as a Latin one. The Hobbit is much more in Beowulf's vein, but that's only because Tolkien aped it.

The Hobbit has little to do with Beowulf, though, even when it comes to dragons. There's the scene where Bilbo steals a cup which was indeed borrowed directly from Beowulf, but other than that, Smaug has more in common with Fáfnir.

[martianmister]

I wouldn't really say it's "changed over time," so much as other classic versions of dragons have been brought in. You do know that classic Eastern mythology often has dragons as benevolent creatures, right?

Chinese "dragons" are not even actual dragons, they only called that because of euro-centrist naming conventions and their superficial similarity. It's like calling a turkey a type of chicken.

The Aeneid and Beowulf are only part of the same "Western" tradition in retrospect, after the latter had been constructed. No one in the tenth century would have thought a Germanic epic in the same tradition as a Latin one.

It's doubtful how much of those "germanic" dragons are actually comes from pre-latin tales, and how much of them comes from greco-latin influences.

[GrayGriffin]

Chinese "dragons" are not even actual dragons, they only called that because of euro-centrist naming conventions and their superficial similarity. It's like calling a turkey a type of chicken.

Dude, there's no need to get enraged on our behalf. We use the same name for them in Chinese too. Actually the Chinese name for "turkey" also includes the character for "chicken," so your comparison doesn't even hold up there.

[Peelee]

Hold up, turkeys aren't just chickens that you order Super Sized?

[martianmister]

Dude, there's no need to get enraged on our behalf. We use the same name for them in Chinese too

Since when explaining something became enraging?

Actually the Chinese name for "turkey" also includes the character for "chicken," so your comparison doesn't even hold up there

I'm not sure what you're trying to tell me with this. Turkey is not a type of chicken, it doesn't matter what chinese named it.

[Goblin_Priest]

Flying snake seems like a surprisingly common myth world-wide. Can't speak for Africa, but I think the Americas, Europe, and Asia independently came up with the idea, with it, at one time or another, being awfully close.







New conspiracy theory: aliens existed, visited us, and were actually flying snakes with fancy crests.

[hroþila]

I would imagine it's a reflection of some kind of innate or atavistic fear of snakes. Alternatively, once someone thought of them independently in each of those societies they struck a chord because damn, have you seen how cool they are?

[Peelee]

Also there is an argument that some pre-columbian oriental cultures may have come to the Americas, given (among other things) some striking similarities in art.

[martianmister]

Flying snake seems like a surprisingly common myth world-wide. Can't speak for Africa, but I think the Americas, Europe, and Asia independently came up with the idea, with it, at one time or another, being awfully close.

That's a sea monster, I doubt it can fly. And flying is a pretty late addition to european dragon myths. None of famous dragons from medieval era can fly.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Yes, when I mentioned godlike wish-granting characteristics I was thinking of 'Dragon Ball'. When I say changed over time, I was strictly thinking of the evolution of the 'Western' dragon. From serpent interchangeable in Virgil as serpens / draco (circa 70BC), to treasure hoarding and fire breathing in Beowulf (circa 1,000AD), to getting a certain intelligence and cunning as Smaug in 'the Hobbit' (1937). That's about 2,000 years of story telling. As far as I am aware none of this was particularly influenced by classic Eastern mythology, and the dragons in 'Dungeons and Dragons' clearly follow from the Tolkienesque fantasy world as treasure-guarding antagonists.

Spoiler: Images

Show

Yup. Clearly no influence from Eastern draconic beliefs are present in any of D&D's dragons. Certainly, there aren't any in how some of the benevolent dragons live in palaces under the ocean, can take human form, etc.
Not all D&D dragons are influenced by Eastern beliefs, but some definitely are.

The Hobbit has little to do with Beowulf, though, even when it comes to dragons. There's the scene where Bilbo steals a cup which was indeed borrowed directly from Beowulf, but other than that, Smaug has more in common with Fáfnir.

The last third of Beowulf has an awful lot of suspicious parallels with The Hobbit. Aside from the cup thing setting off an angry dragon who ends up desolating the surrounding countryside, thirteen warriors and the thief go to the dragon's lair, the dragon was killed by a wound to the soft spot in its scales, and the king among them ends up dead.
Skimming a scholarly article on the influence Tolkien had on modern interpretations of Beowulf, it can be argued that Tolkien drew more from his interpretation of Beowulf's dragon than the actual beast as written in Ye Olde English...but it can also be argued that he merely highlighted the aspects of said dragon that he found most interesting and unique.

Chinese "dragons" are not even actual dragons, they only called that because of euro-centrist naming conventions and their superficial similarity. It's like calling a turkey a type of chicken.

Since when explaining something became enraging?

I'm not sure what you're trying to tell me with this. Turkey is not a type of chicken, it doesn't matter what chinese named it.

Turkeys are not a type of chicken. Chickens are a well-defined clade of Asian jungle fowl, some of which were domesticated for food, spread around the world, and probably now outnumber their wild cousins by some ludicrous amount. Turkeys are descended from an entirely different stock of fowl.
The eastern lung/long is not a type of chicken. It is not a reptile, a chordate, or even a eukaryote. It is a meme, in the formal sense. You can argue that it comes from different memetic stock than the Western dragon (or the Mesoamerican feathered serpent), but regardless of whether there's some primordial mythic serpent linking some or all dragon-like creatures, the two concepts are now intrinsically linked. They might be intrinsically linked because "lung" and "long" both sounded kinda lame as monster names to the European explorers who first talked with East Asians about the big monsters and gave them a European name, but they are now linked nonetheless. Many modern dragons draw elements from both Western and Eastern traditions.
The time when you could argue that the eastern supernatural serpents were not actually dragons has passed. For good or for ill, in wisdom or in stupidity, the two concepts have been assumed to be related for long enough that they are related, because they do not exist outside human beliefs. Your chicken/turkey argument is flawed specifically because chickens and turkeys do.
(...Also because names themselves are equally ephemeral and related more to perception than reality, but that's an argument for another time.)

[GrayGriffin]

Since when explaining something became enraging?


I'm not sure what you're trying to tell me with this. Turkey is not a type of chicken, it doesn't matter what chinese named it.

My point is that it's ridiculous to complain about the "wrong name" being used by Europeans when Chinese people don't have different names for them either.

[Goblin_Priest]

That's a sea monster, I doubt it can fly. And flying is a pretty late addition to european dragon myths. None of famous dragons from medieval era can fly.

Well, I took that from "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_dragon", and it figures on other wiki pages that also have "dragon" in their titles. So... I'm gonna call it a dragon, even if it's not our more archetypal 4-legs+bat-wings D&D dragon.

As for flying, well, honestly I don't know medieval stories about dragons all that much, but all of the paintings I'm familiar with show wings, so... surely those wings were meant to be useful...?

[GreatWyrmGold]

As for flying, well, honestly I don't know medieval stories about dragons all that much, but all of the paintings I'm familiar with show wings, so... surely those wings were meant to be useful...?

I'm more familiar with medieval stories about dragons (this might surprise you—glances at avatar—but I kinda had a dragon thing when I was in middle school).
Many artistic depictions of dragons did have wings and were able to fly. However, there were also many artistic depictions and plenty of stories which described dragons as being basically big snakes, sometimes with forelimbs. Of course, it's also worth noting that medieval dragons rarely had a breath weapon; it was more common for them to be ludicrously toxic. (One small dragon was so toxic that, when a knight stabbed it with his lance, the poison in its blood that traveled up the lance was enough to kill the knight and the horse he rode in on.) Our modern idea of what an archetypical dragon is comes from a remarkably small fraction of the myths.
It's not wrong to say that few European dragons were basically flying serpents. It's wrong to say that none were.

[Peelee]

and the horse he rode in on

Hey, no need to get personal here!

Alternate punchline: that was a fantastic opening for The Maw.

[GreatWyrmGold]

To clarify, the poison literally killed the knight's horse. That wasn't initially supposed to be a joke.

I'd make a joke about that being anime BS, but by that metric, basically everything except Tolkien knockoffs and rom-coms are full of anime BS.

[Peelee]

To clarify, the poison literally killed the knight's horse. That wasn't initially supposed to be a joke.

Oh, I know, i just couldn't resist.

[Vinyadan]

One small dragon was so toxic that, when a knight stabbed it with his lance, the poison in its blood that traveled up the lance was enough to kill the knight and the horse he rode in on.)

Actually, that isn't a small dragon, that's a basilisk. It's in Pliny, the Pharsalia, and Leonardo's bestiary. (In the Pharsalia, the effect is cut short by the horseman by chopping off his own hand with the sword).

[Borris]

In French, the turkey was one called India's chicken (poule d'Inde).

Now it's literally just called India's (dinde).

[zimmerwald1915]

In French, the turkey was one called India's chicken (poule d'Inde).

Now it's literally just called India's (dinde).

Blame the muppet who called the Americas the "Indies."

[hroþila]

Blame the muppet who called the Americas the "Indies."

Come on now, muppets are harmless.

[zimmerwald1915]

Come on now, muppets are harmless.

One once threatened to kill me if I didn't drink coffee

[Squire Doodad]

Actually, that isn't a small dragon, that's a basilisk. It's in Pliny, the Pharsalia, and Leonardo's bestiary. (In the Pharsalia, the effect is cut short by the horseman by chopping off his own hand with the sword).

Yeah, the line between "dragony thing" and "dragon" is quite weird in many mythologies. For instance, the Tarasque is frequently depicted as a lion-headed Anklyosaurid thing, but there are some that have it resembling a small dragon like creature.

Also, if the guy chopped off his hand with the sword he got afflicted with the poison by...that doesn't seem like it would save him.

[Vinyadan]

Yeah, the line between "dragony thing" and "dragon" is quite weird in many mythologies. For instance, the Tarasque is frequently depicted as a lion-headed Anklyosaurid thing, but there are some that have it resembling a small dragon like creature.

Also, if the guy chopped off his hand with the sword he got afflicted with the poison by...that doesn't seem like it would save him.

He used the spear to hit the basilisk, and then he unsheathed his sword.

[Riftwolf]

He used the spear to hit the basilisk, and then he unsheathed his sword.

I like how either he cut his hand off in a spur of the moment, or, knowing the toxicity of the basilisk, chose to stab it and cut his hand off as the easier option to throwing the spear.

[martianmister]

Well, I took that from "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_dragon", and it figures on other wiki pages that also have "dragon" in their titles. So... I'm gonna call it a dragon, even if it's not our more archetypal 4-legs+bat-wings D&D dragon.

I never said that Cetus isn't a dragon, I said that it's not a "flying snake" as your post said.

As for flying, well, honestly I don't know medieval stories about dragons all that much, but all of the paintings I'm familiar with show wings, so... surely those wings were meant to be useful...?

I'm no art historian myself. None of the medieval dragons I know are able to fly.

It's not wrong to say that few European dragons were basically flying serpents. It's wrong to say that none were.

Can you tell me the name of a famous medieval dragon that can fly?

My point is that it's ridiculous to complain about the "wrong name" being used by Europeans when Chinese people don't have different names for them either.

It doesn't matter who did what. Point is, they are completely different creature. Chinese dragons are more closely resemble chimeras as they too made out of many different animals.

The time when you could argue that the eastern supernatural serpents were not actually dragons has passed. For good or for ill, in wisdom or in stupidity, the two concepts have been assumed to be related for long enough that they are related, because they do not exist outside human beliefs. Your chicken/turkey argument is flawed specifically because chickens and turkeys do.

Twilight vampires comes to mind...I also don't think there is much correlation between DnD and chinese dragons. It's not like "not all dragons are evil" is a sentiment that needed to be came from chinese. It's a logical step for species with human-like intelligence.

[Oxenstierna]

Yup. Clearly no influence from Eastern draconic beliefs are present in any of D&D's dragons.

Yup, D&D. The game that (to this day), is famous for a fantasy group of heroes delving deep into an ancient labyrinth of dungeons to face a dragon... for a nice cup of tea and getting their wishes granted
Clearly there needs to be a proximity warning between mentioning there's no known significant Eastern storytelling influence on 'Western' dragons across ~2,000 years to Tolkien and a mention of the progression to D&D in the next sentence. In case it's unclear, the modern version of D&D does have traceable 'Eastern' influences. Soon someone will troll, pointing the existence of the 'monk' class, and argue the entire game was initially conceptualized as a tribute to Hong Kong action movies...

[Kish]

Yup, D&D. The game that (to this day), is famous for a fantasy group of heroes delving deep into an ancient labyrinth of dungeons to face a dragon... for a nice cup of tea and getting their wishes granted

Certainly. You mean a gold dragon, right?

[Fyraltari]

It doesn't matter who did what. Point is, they are completely different creature. Chinese dragons are more closely resemble chimeras as they too made out of many different animals.

The Chimera. It’s a singular monster, not a breed.